Terri Shaivo thread

[Steff]

I'm not surprised at all. This ruling is consistant with what the courts have been ruling for the better part of a decade.

 

 

Pffttt.. don't mess this up with facts.

[YASNY]

FL court rejected Bush's attempt to take custody of Shaivo

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/24/schiavo/index.html

 

 

This link is to the USSC rejection. They are reporting on FoxNews that they are still waiting on the FL court decision.

[southsider2k5]

This link is to the USSC rejection.  They are reporting on FoxNews that they are still waiting on the FL court decision.

 

This is what I was referring to

 

On another legal front, Florida Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge George Greer on Thursday denied a petition of the state Department of Children and Families -- and Gov. Jeb Bush -- to take Schiavo into state custody.

[YASNY]

This is what I was referring to

 

I guess we'll see. This may not be a done deal yet.

[JUGGERNAUT]

This is what I was referring to

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That was expected. They are waiting on the FL court of appeals now.

 

This is her absolute last thread of hope & Terri's turn for the worse represents it being stretched to the breaking point.

 

I don't see any hope in that court either. They would rather err on the side of death than to risk any precedent that can be used to thwart the death penalty. I believe what Dershowitz is saying about this. It makes sense. It's sad. It's like punching oneself in the face.

Edited March 24, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[southsider2k5]

This is an interesting article about how Terri's death will be pretty painless if it happens this way.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/u...neurologistssay

[JUGGERNAUT]

This is an interesting article about how Terri's death will be pretty painless if it happens this way.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/u...neurologistssay

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Schia...G=Google+Search

There's a number of links indicating she's been given morphine to ease her pain & suffering.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Do we start a new thread or should we include the debate on the latest memogate in this one?

 

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en...ate&btnG=Search

Again choose the source you trust the most :rolly

 

I predicted the Dems would take a bath on this issue & now it seems like it going to be naked as well. When will they learn? You had an opening!

 

Try to imagine what they could have said:

We looked at the bill before Congress & listen to the debate comparing Terri's right-to-die to that of death penalty inmate's rights & found it convincing in light of the controversy surrounding the case. We choose to err on the side of life in Terri's case. At the same time we are not surprised by the decisions of the courts. Those judges have a history of being death penalty advocates & probably look upon the Schindler's filings as some kind of threat to that. It's sad that conservatives serving on the bench would choose to uphold the right to kill the accused over the right to save the innocent.

 

Think about that. The Dems don't have anything to lose on the right to die issue. So they don't need to support it in this case. This was a great chance to put the GOP against the GOP & paint conservatives on the bench as heartless in the process. They blew it! Politics is not meant to be nice.

Edited March 24, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Rex Kickass]

So you're denying that the Republicans played politics about this? Or are you just trying to hide that by pointing out that a reporter was potentially given bad information? And the proof is that he won't produce the document?

[Pale Hose Jon]

There's this quote by Thomas Jefferson  ... hold on.

Get real.  How the hell can I present "evidence"?

 

"The constitution and the laws of their predecessors [are] extinguished then in their natural course with those who gave them being.... Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.”

- Thomas Jefferson

[JUGGERNAUT]

Maybe this should be another thread but does any one feel that MSNBC is trying to become America's Catholic News network? It seems to me they are spending more time on what the Vatican thinks of all this than any other network. Likewise they are devoting considerable time to stories of people who have faught their way back from diagnosis of MCS & PVS.

 

When you combine that with Scaroborough supporting the Vatican's position on feeding tubes it definitely seems that's the target audience the networks trying to grab.

[kapkomet]

Here's a question.

 

What about Jack Kevorkian? Here's a guy who had the documents needed to "take life" through a living will, and he's sitting in jail over it.

 

Meanwhile, all you people who want to "pull Terri's plug" aren't screaming that Dr. Jack get out of jail?

 

Which way is it?

[southsider2k5]

Here's a question.

 

What about Jack Kevorkian?  Here's a guy who had the documents needed to "take life" through a living will, and he's sitting in jail over it.

 

Meanwhile, all you people who want to "pull Terri's plug" aren't screaming that Dr. Jack get out of jail?

 

Which way is it?

 

One fine line distinction there for me. Allowing someone to die, is different than giving them something that will kill them.

[Gene Honda Civic]

I'm not screaming 'pull the plug'... I'd like to scream STFU to the media and politicians using this vegetable for ratings and political gain.

 

But let's face it, Why did this woman have a heart attack at such an early age all 15 years ago? .... She was anorexic and bulemic. She abused her body. She had body image issues. If you showed a picture of current day Terri Shiavo to the 1990 version and told her that's what she would look like for the next 15 years, possibly more, what do you think her opinion of that picture would be?(remember this is woman who couldn't even appreciate a perfectly normal body)

 

To me starvation seems a pretty fitting end to an anorexics life.

[mreye]

One fine line distinction there for me.  Allowing someone to die, is different than giving them something that will kill them.

Or taking away something that will kill them?

 

 

Just saying.

[Texsox]

I hope that means something other than you are LYAO at her dying 

 

 

No Tex.... it means exactly that. 

:headshake

 

Here is my comment and her response. Notice no green. She repeated basically the same comment in a PM. Black and white in easy to understand words.

 

"It means exactly that."

[Steff]

Here is my comment and her response. Notice no green. She repeated basically the same comment in a PM. Black and white in easy to understand words.

 

"It means exactly that."

 

 

And for the third time, you misunderstood. I can't even believe #1 that you asked that, and #2 that I had to explain it. Everyone else read the exchange in thread and the PM.. they also have been paying attention to my comments in this thread where I have been nothing but sympathetic to this entire situation, and not one of them assumed what you did. For you to even attempt to incinuate that I would be laughing at someone's death... that's sick. As I told you in my final PM.. if after discussing this back and forth with me the past 2 days and tossing around the "I respect your opinion.... bla, bla, bla..." and reading my words and how disgusted I am with all of this... you still feel the need to ask me why I would laugh at someone's death... then please just be done with me.

 

 

Loss of respect... you got that right.

 

 

Sorry wino.. I tried.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Here's a question.

 

What about Jack Kevorkian?  Here's a guy who had the documents needed to "take life" through a living will, and he's sitting in jail over it.

 

Meanwhile, all you people who want to "pull Terri's plug" aren't screaming that Dr. Jack get out of jail?

 

Which way is it?

 

Kevorkian wasn't murdering people but providing people death with dignity -- and without the mess. These people he assisted were terminally ill and were going to take themselves out anyway, using his assistance to do it in a more "dignified" manner. Personally I think its more considerate of them to do so rather than painting their den a shade of red and brain matter gray -- forcing the family members to clean it up.

 

People who want a death with dignity and that is their personal choice after reflection & discussion with loved ones/doctors should be given that opportunity without government wrapping themselves up in "the culture of life" when the government would have no problem killing these people if they committed a certain crime.

[kapkomet]

Kevorkian wasn't murdering people but providing people death with dignity -- and without the mess.  These people he assisted were terminally ill and were going to take themselves out anyway, using his assistance to do it in a more "dignified" manner.  Personally I think its more considerate of them to do so rather than painting their den a shade of red and brain matter gray -- forcing the family members to clean it up.

 

People who want a death with dignity and that is their personal choice after reflection & discussion with loved ones/doctors should be given that opportunity without government wrapping themselves up in "the culture of life" when the government would have no problem killing these people if they committed a certain crime.

Exactly. Which means, as GHC said, the politicians should STFU and leave this alone.

[JUGGERNAUT]

To me starvation seems a pretty fitting end to an anorexics life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now see that's what's wrong with this thread. That's an incredibly mean thing to say about a 41 yr old woman who is being starved to death with the possibility it's against her will. Especially since that has no greater credence than Michael's claim she said she wanted to die. I didn't say likeihood just possibility.

 

Cutting through all the weeds surrounding this case it really comes down to 2 arguments:

 

Right-to-Life:

There is enough doubt cast over this case to suggest the possibility that Terri is only in a MCS & that she may not have given her consent to die. Again I just said possibility not likelihood. This case came before the court in 2000 & she has remained in this state for over 4 yrs. What harm will another year or two do?

 

Right-to-Die:

The recent doubt is not great enough to sway the court's current position. The recent doubt is not great enough to re-examine the facts of the case. To allow for an extensive review when the court clearly believes the new findings do not warrant an extensive review threaten the proceeding for all future R-t-D cases in both the state of FL & the nation now that this has been elevated to a Federal level.

 

Both are very compelling arguments in my opinion which makes this case so hard to decide. I am glad I am not a judge in this case. There is no such thing as making a decision just for Terri. Every decision has ramifications on pending & future cases. I can imagine the ramification on other contested r-t-d cases if they were to accept the Schindler's appeal.

 

I just wish things had been different. I wish her condition were clear & conclusive as I wish her desire to die was. It's the doubt that makes this case so emotional not just in America but around the world. These are not a silent minority of 40% or so. They are very vocal. I would hope that the procedures surrounding both the determination of R-t-D & an incapacitated person's diagnosis will be changed as a result of this case. Not just in the state of FL but across America. The diagnosis must be dealt with as the most important responibility of the court. No expense should be spared to get it right. Even if that means going out of state for leading experts. The determination of the right in the absence of a living will should likewise be heavily scrutinized. Social norms such as assuming the spouse has a greater interest than the parents should be ignored in that decision. All facts should be considered including any group affiliations a person has in there life that would sway that decision one way or the other. Doubt should be the norm in the absence of a living will and all facts should be starting at 0 with respect to their weight in the case.

 

With respect to infamous Dr Jack K, he did it outside the rule of law & without the approval of the courts. That's why he's in jail.

Edited March 24, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[JUGGERNAUT]

Terri has a new thread to life: Whittemore has agreed to hear a new motion filed by the Schindlers. That hearing will commence at 6PM EST.

 

Links to the two doctors who have cast probably the most doubt over Terri's diagnosis:

Dr. William Hammesfahr - http://uspolitics.about.com/b/a/155906.htm

Dr. William P. Cheshire - http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=news&sta...-home-headlines

 

Dr. Cheshire is the basis for the new motion.

- respected Dr at a well-known institution

- Director of the Autonomic Reflex Laboratory at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Fla., which specializes in brain and nervous system disorders.

- Director of biotech ethics at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity in Bannockburn, Ill

 

Detractors: David Magnus (co-director of the Stanford University Center), Dr. Gene Sung, director of the neurocritical care section of USC's department of neurology.

 

Obviously you can see the problem with discrediting this guys opinion. He has the esteemed experience on both the medical & ethical aspects of persons in in-capacitated states. You can not rule out his testimony just because he may be religious. What I found interesting in the article is that neither Magnus nor Sung were willing to say the Dr is wrong. That's a sign that he is well-respected by both.

 

It is unknown whether Cheshire himself will appear before the court tonight.

Edited March 24, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Soxbadger]

Unless the courts are going to go against over 200 years or jurisprudence, I think that no matter how clever the motion it will fail.

 

The father has the holy trinity on his side:

 

The Florida Legislature, Executive, and Judiciary.

 

If in the end, the Florida law is over turned, you will have witnessed the end of checks and balances.

 

Also, what happened to courts being to activist, and the swelling of the federal docket?

 

This new law just increased the federal docket exponentially, as probate is already one of the largest and fullest dockets in the US. Every person in the US will eventually die, that means every person's assets etc will be probated. Now add on to this, every time a person is DNR'ed etc, that there will be a federal court case, you are talking about so much judicial waste it is mind blowing.

 

State's make their own laws, states approve their own laws, and states interpret their own laws.

 

Florida's law is clear,

 

Guardianship goes to husband before parents.

 

If that is not the law the people of Florida want, then they should rewrite it. But the law is based on the precedent of the state, which they codified so that cases like this would be easier to decide.

 

SB

[Gene Honda Civic]

Now see that's what's wrong with this thread. That's an incredibly mean thing to say about a 41 yr old woman who is being starved to death with the possibility it's against her will.

 

Against her will? She's a potato(e). And when she was a fully functional person, it was her will that led to her starving herself, resulting in crazy potassium levels, collapsing, and put her in this situation. What makes you think that she wants to eat now that she's bed ridden, with essentially no brain function, and looking like a short-bus student?

 

It may sound callous, but if a drug addict was in a similar position, and they decided to push him over the edge with an OD of heroin, I would call that a fitting end to his life... or an Alcoholic dying of Alcohol posioning... I'm an equal opportunity cynic. You abuse your body, then you subsequently die(or be put into shiavo's situation) because of your abuse and you'll get ZERO sympathy from me.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Against her will?  She's a potato(e). And when she was a fully functional person, it was her will that led to her starving herself, resulting in crazy potassium levels, collapsing, and put her in this situation.  What makes you think that she wants to eat now that she's bed ridden, with essentially no brain function, and  looking like a short-bus student?

 

It may sound callous, but if a drug addict was in a similar position, and they decided to push him over the edge with an OD of heroin, I would call that a fitting end to his life... or an Alcoholic dying of Alcohol posioning... I'm an equal opportunity cynic.  You abuse your body, then you subsequently die(or be put into shiavo's situation) because of your abuse and you'll get ZERO sympathy from me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Her bullemia was alleged and not conclusively proven or assumed.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Her bullemia was alleged and not conclusively proven or assumed.

Have you ever seen her parents clutching a picture of the 16 year old 200lb Terri? No, that would detract from their media blitz.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-0...-disorder_x.htm

 

Can her whacked out Potassium levels that caused her heart to stop be explained away by something else?

 

 

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... you get the picture.