Sox Acquire Javier Vazquez

[sircaffey]

What are the chances we sign a relief pitcher? Is there anyone left? Hammond perhaps?

[AddisonStSox]

i am clearly dissapointed in you of all people.

 

He lost me, TQ. I'm just awestruck.

 

Clearly, there is another move in the wings, here, and I have no idea what direction Kenny is heading. Is he perfectly clear on what direction he is heading?

 

I was always the first to salute Kenny and give him the benefit of the doubt--the man brought a World Championship to this city after 88 years--but, he truly lost an ardent supporter today.

 

He flat-out cut off his nose to spite his face.

 

-You lose bullpen depth in Luis Vizcaino. Remember bullpen depth? You know...one of the key components to that World Series Roster

-You completely f***-up McCarthy's situation. That kid was absolutely ready for that fifth-starter's role this year and I can say that without a shaddow of a doubt. What the hell is going to happen there? Are you telling me you are going to stick Brandon in the bullpen for 2006, waiting for an injury?

-It appears Jon Garland, a guy who would probably leave after this season, whom CAN BE REPLACED IN 2006 FREE AGENCT, is on his way out along with Chris Young, the Golden Boy and CF of the future.

 

He lost me. He's going to have to earn this supporter--and his money, devotion, and time at the ballpark--back.

[Balta1701]

Garland is another bad example... He worked out of the pen too.  Its hard to say Neal struggled as a starter with as few starts as he had.  Give the kid a real chance before calling him a failed starter.  The Sox have talked in the past about starting kids out in the pen to give them good match ups to build their confidence and pitches.  This should come as no surprise.

If Brandon McCarthy has problems with confidence, he just needs to go watch those games against Boston and Texas again. Several times over.

[nitetrain8601]

He was not rocked in those games because he was missing a pitch, he was rocked in those games because he was throwing only fastball/curveball.  With just those 2 pitches, BMac is beatable.  But that changeup is the pitch that makes everything else work.  It's like Santana from the right hand side.  It just makes people look like idiots.  No one has been able to pick it up at all, and combined with the curve ball it just dominates people. 

 

When he wasn't throwing that pitch, he was getting beat.  Late in the year he started throwing it more, and suddenly no one could hit him.

 

I like the idea of him getting another pitch, just to throw a few times per game, just to keep people even more honest.  And most people still think he'll add a few MPH to his fastball as his frame fills out.

 

But I'm saying, we don't know if he still doesn't trust his changeup. He needs to. Why go through experiencing growing pains in the rotation when you could build up his confidence and have him fully develop another pitch as a MR/Spot Starter?

[kapkomet]

He lost me, TQ.  I'm just awestruck.

 

Clearly, there is another move in the wings, here, and I have no idea what direction Kenny is heading.  Is he perfectly clear on what direction he is heading?

 

I was always the first to salute Kenny and give him the benefit of the doubt--the man brought a World Championship to this city after 88 years--but, he truly lost an ardent supporter today.

 

He flat-out cut off his nose to spite his face.

 

-You lose bullpen depth in Luis Vizcaino.  Remember bullpen depth?  You know...one of the key components to that World Series Roster

-You completely f***-up McCarthy's situation.  That kid was absolutely ready for that fifth-starter's role this year and I can say that without a shaddow of a doubt.  What the hell is going to happen there?  Are you telling me you are going to stick Brandon in the bullpen for 2006, waiting for an injury?

-It appears Jon Garland, a guy who would probably leave after this season, whom CAN BE REPLACED IN 2006 FREE AGENCT, is on his way out along with Chris Young, the Golden Boy and CF of the future.

 

He lost me.  He's going to have to earn this supporter--and his money, devotion, and time at the ballpark--back.

Wow, dude. Juuuuuuuuust a little bit of an over-reaction. It's your right, but my opinion stands.

[Balta1701]

-You completely f***-up McCarthy's situation.  That kid was absolutely ready for that fifth-starter's role this year and I can say that without a shaddow of a doubt.  What the hell is going to happen there?  Are you telling me you are going to stick Brandon in the bullpen for 2006, waiting for an injury?

-It appears Jon Garland, a guy who would probably leave after this season, whom CAN BE REPLACED IN 2006 FREE AGENCT, is on his way out along with Chris Young, the Golden Boy and CF of the future.

These 2 points are directly contradictory. If Jon Garland is on his way out, it doesn't screw up McCarthy in any way, shape, or form. Rather, it may in fact improve things for BMac, because Garland can still be turned into something valuable.

 

I will say this though...and once again...if Brandon McCarthy is not in the starting rotation in April, I cannot be held responsible for my actions.

[NorthSideSox72]

According to ESPN's Jerry Crasnick, the White Sox have acquired pitcher Javier Vazquez from the Diamondbacks for Orlando Hernandez, RP Luis Vizcaino and outfield prospect Chris Young.

Arizona is sending money to the White Sox so the deal needs the approval of the commissioner Bud Selig before being official. Dec. 14 - 11:05 am et

Source: espn.com

we are getting the cash too!

 

We'd better be, else this trade is terrible. Unless he's being flipped.

[Guest JimH]

He lost me, TQ.  I'm just awestruck.

 

Clearly, there is another move in the wings, here, and I have no idea what direction Kenny is heading.  Is he perfectly clear on what direction he is heading?

 

I was always the first to salute Kenny and give him the benefit of the doubt--the man brought a World Championship to this city after 88 years--but, he truly lost an ardent supporter today.

 

He flat-out cut off his nose to spite his face.

 

-You lose bullpen depth in Luis Vizcaino.  Remember bullpen depth?  You know...one of the key components to that World Series Roster

-You completely f***-up McCarthy's situation.  That kid was absolutely ready for that fifth-starter's role this year and I can say that without a shaddow of a doubt.  What the hell is going to happen there?  Are you telling me you are going to stick Brandon in the bullpen for 2006, waiting for an injury?

-It appears Jon Garland, a guy who would probably leave after this season, whom CAN BE REPLACED IN 2006 FREE AGENCT, is on his way out along with Chris Young, the Golden Boy and CF of the future.

 

He lost me.  He's going to have to earn this supporter--and his money, devotion, and time at the ballpark--back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ian without going point by point and sorry to quote the whole post, but wait until all the dust settles. This is not the final makeup of the team. More is coming.

[AddisonStSox]

These 2 points are directly contradictory.  If Jon Garland is on his way out, it doesn't screw up McCarthy in any way, shape, or form.  Rather, it may in fact improve things for BMac, because Garland can still be turned into something valuable.

 

I will say this though...and once again...if Brandon McCarthy is not in the starting rotation in April, I cannot be held responsible for my actions.

 

Agree on that. Those are contradictory. I realize that. I suppose this means Garland--could it be someone else?--is heading out, making room for McCarthy. I'm just sitting here worried about organizational depth, the bullpen, and moving what appears to be the center-fielder of the future.

 

I'm done on the matter, I've said my piece. Finals to study for.

[kapkomet]

Some of you same people that are b****ing about this trade b****ed about Count too. Just food for thought.

[RockRaines]

You had me...and you lost me.

 

I'm nauseous.  Hand to God: I'm actually nauseous.

 

I'm off the wagon, Kenny. 

 

You now have to make me a believer.  No support on this move.

You can count me in on that same boat.

[NorthSideSox72]

He lost me, TQ.  I'm just awestruck.

 

He lost me.  He's going to have to earn this supporter--and his money, devotion, and time at the ballpark--back.

 

Oh come on. One trade, which may not be great (though I think it is, as long as we got significant cash), and you throw away your devotion to the team? And when it seems like another deal is coming?

 

:headshake

[Balta1701]

You know, just off the top of my head...the Angels are in need of another starting pitcher, they have a ton of nearly-ready MLB quality prospects/players and a very solid bullpen, they'd have the money to resign Jon if they wanted to, and they're in SoCal.

 

The Dodgers are in the same boat, they're just not as good.

 

I wonder if KW would deal with the team we beat in the ALCS.

[nitetrain8601]

He lost me, TQ.  I'm just awestruck.

 

Clearly, there is another move in the wings, here, and I have no idea what direction Kenny is heading.  Is he perfectly clear on what direction he is heading?

 

I was always the first to salute Kenny and give him the benefit of the doubt--the man brought a World Championship to this city after 88 years--but, he truly lost an ardent supporter today.

 

He flat-out cut off his nose to spite his face.

 

-You lose bullpen depth in Luis Vizcaino.  Remember bullpen depth?  You know...one of the key components to that World Series Roster

-You completely f***-up McCarthy's situation.  That kid was absolutely ready for that fifth-starter's role this year and I can say that without a shaddow of a doubt.  What the hell is going to happen there?  Are you telling me you are going to stick Brandon in the bullpen for 2006, waiting for an injury?

-It appears Jon Garland, a guy who would probably leave after this season, whom CAN BE REPLACED IN 2006 FREE AGENCT, is on his way out along with Chris Young, the Golden Boy and CF of the future.

 

He lost me.  He's going to have to earn this supporter--and his money, devotion, and time at the ballpark--back.

 

Viz was decent(I thought he got crapped on too much on here), but I remember tons of people saying he sucks and he should've not been thrown out there like a Damaso from the right side. Mopup duty bullpen guys are easily obtainable.

 

You don't f*** up anything with McCarthy. There's still a chance Garland gets dealt. And remember Buehrle coming out of the bullpen when he first came up? Yeah. I think it worked our pretty decently. Also look at the formula St. Louis had with Danny Haren. It looks like that helped out in Oakland. There's something to putting someone in the bullpen and using them as a spot starter to allow them to develop. It's not only the White Sox using this formula. Again, the emotional attachment to BMac's situation is ridiculous.

 

And since when has protecting ourselves a bad thing for the organization?? Garland sounds like he's going to leave. That will open up a spot for the beloved Brandon McCarthy. Also, what great prospect has Kenny given up that has panned out?

 

If Kenny Williams has to earn your respect coming off of a World Series title, then I'm sure they won't miss you much at the ballpark then.

[ottawa_sox]

He was not rocked in those games because he was missing a pitch, he was rocked in those games because he was throwing only fastball/curveball.  With just those 2 pitches, BMac is beatable.  But that changeup is the pitch that makes everything else work.  It's like Santana from the right hand side.  It just makes people look like idiots.  No one has been able to pick it up at all, and combined with the curve ball it just dominates people. 

 

When he wasn't throwing that pitch, he was getting beat.  Late in the year he started throwing it more, and suddenly no one could hit him.

 

I like the idea of him getting another pitch, just to throw a few times per game, just to keep people even more honest.  And most people still think he'll add a few MPH to his fastball as his frame fills out.

 

He also temporarily lost his arm slot for the 12 to 6 o'clock fastball. Re-finding it was also a big key to his renewed success. His devestating changeup is especially hard to pick up when he is throwing fastballs completely over the top.

[Guest JimH]

You know, just off the top of my head...the Angels are in need of another starting pitcher, they have a ton of nearly-ready MLB quality prospects/players and a very solid bullpen, they'd have the money to resign Jon if they wanted to, and they're in SoCal.

 

The Dodgers are in the same boat, they're just not as good.

 

I wonder if KW would deal with the team we beat in the ALCS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good post, you are right, both are good fits. I'm guessing the Dodgers.

[3E8]

And he only has 1 that he throws great. His fastball is too straight and there's not enough power behind it. His changeup stinks, but it's a way to keep hitters off-balance. He'll work nicely the first time he faces teams, but the 2nd time around, it'll be alot harder. Now if he were to develop a cutter or a slider, then he would be much better off. Let's not forget the games he was rocked or the games in which he should've gotten rocked(Detroit last year)

Pitchers that log over 500 K's and maintain a K:BB ratio over 5 in the minors are something special. They don't do it on one great pitch, I can guarantee you that. You do not relegate an arm like McCarthy's to the bullpen. We all know Buehrle started out of the pen and that's all well and good, but it's easier to shorten and then re-lengthen an arm like Buehrle's than it is McCarthy's because of the type of pitchers they each are.

[NYSox35]

He lost me, TQ.  I'm just awestruck.

 

Clearly, there is another move in the wings, here, and I have no idea what direction Kenny is heading.  Is he perfectly clear on what direction he is heading?

 

I was always the first to salute Kenny and give him the benefit of the doubt--the man brought a World Championship to this city after 88 years--but, he truly lost an ardent supporter today.

 

He flat-out cut off his nose to spite his face.

 

-You lose bullpen depth in Luis Vizcaino.  Remember bullpen depth?  You know...one of the key components to that World Series Roster

-You completely f***-up McCarthy's situation.  That kid was absolutely ready for that fifth-starter's role this year and I can say that without a shaddow of a doubt.  What the hell is going to happen there?  Are you telling me you are going to stick Brandon in the bullpen for 2006, waiting for an injury?

-It appears Jon Garland, a guy who would probably leave after this season, whom CAN BE REPLACED IN 2006 FREE AGENCT, is on his way out along with Chris Young, the Golden Boy and CF of the future.

 

He lost me.  He's going to have to earn this supporter--and his money, devotion, and time at the ballpark--back.

 

Dude, Chill the F out man...have a beer or something. First of all, our pitching is even better than last year with Vaz as a #5. We've got brandon in the pen taking Viz's spot...the only person we're missing is Marte. If we get 1 serviceable pen arm, we are fine.

 

Do you want to see this team good for the next few years? I do... and by good, I mean a threat to win it all. Do you realize that is what Kenny is doing here?

There is a great chance Jon walks after this season, so now we've got a comparable pitcher in our control for 3 more seasons. Along with Mark and Freddy, that is a nice front 3. Figure we bring back Jose C and B Mac will be ready for next year.

 

As far as young, we are loaded with OF talent. You seriously need to get back from the ledge. Saying you're done supporting this team now if f'ing assinine.

[kapkomet]

So what you're saying. Balta, is everything being equal, just hand the Cy Young award to Mr. BMAC next year if he's going to be the best on our staff?

[Balta1701]

Agree on that.  Those are contradictory.  I realize that.  I suppose this means Garland--could it be someone else?--is heading out, making room for McCarthy.  I'm just sitting here worried about organizational depth, the bullpen, and moving what appears to be the center-fielder of the future.

 

I'm done on the matter, I've said my piece.  Finals to study for.

I understand where you're coming for, and I will say this...if BMac were to be traded, I would respond exactly as you are responding now, (unless we got Pujols).

 

I've also worried for a little while about the fact that it really looks like we had 4 promising outfielders coming up. Young, Anderson, Owens, Sweeney. One of those 4 was probably going to have to go. Right now, Young's value is probably as high as it's going to be in the minor leagues. KW turned him into Cash to allow us to keep running at the big leagues. Is he a hard one to give up? Yeah. Very hard. But hopefully KW and Cooper know what they're doing with Vazquez. If they could find the Vazquez who pitched against us to start 2004....ouch.

 

Garland or Contreras have to be heading out, whichever one won't resign. It just doesn't make sense to me to keep someone as good as BMac sitting out in the bullpen where he'll only pitch 60 innings at the most.

[maggsmaggs]

I would like the Sox to add Julian Tavarez possibly, he is similar pitcher to Viz, but better. Eats innings and throws lots of sliders.

Edited December 14, 2005 by maggsmaggs

[SSH2005]

He lost me, TQ.  I'm just awestruck.

 

Clearly, there is another move in the wings, here, and I have no idea what direction Kenny is heading.  Is he perfectly clear on what direction he is heading?

 

I was always the first to salute Kenny and give him the benefit of the doubt--the man brought a World Championship to this city after 88 years--but, he truly lost an ardent supporter today.

 

He flat-out cut off his nose to spite his face.

 

-You lose bullpen depth in Luis Vizcaino.  Remember bullpen depth?  You know...one of the key components to that World Series Roster

-You completely f***-up McCarthy's situation.  That kid was absolutely ready for that fifth-starter's role this year and I can say that without a shaddow of a doubt.  What the hell is going to happen there?  Are you telling me you are going to stick Brandon in the bullpen for 2006, waiting for an injury?

-It appears Jon Garland, a guy who would probably leave after this season, whom CAN BE REPLACED IN 2006 FREE AGENCT, is on his way out along with Chris Young, the Golden Boy and CF of the future.

 

He lost me.  He's going to have to earn this supporter--and his money, devotion, and time at the ballpark--back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, I can't believe ANYONE is going to miss Luis Vizcaino and his 1.47 WHIP. Second, Garland could be dealt which will make room for McCarthy as our fifth starter. I understand missing Chris Young though.

Edited December 14, 2005 by SSH2005

[RockRaines]

I dont think Addy was talking about not being a fan of the team, I think he was saying his confidence level in KW's moves.

 

I like the pickup of another arm, but at what cost? Seriously I thought that Chris Young was as untouchable a prospect as we had. He was the Mike Cameron of 2007 to me. If this makes way for another trade, so be it, but at this point, I was happier with our team before the trade. Our bullpen depth is something that we need to look at, and there is not much available on the market right now.

[Guest JimH]

I would like the Sox to add Julian Tavarez possibly, he is similar pitcher to Viz, but butter. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, butter.

 

I like those slippery relief pitchers.

 

[nitetrain8601]

Pitchers that log over 500 K's and maintain a K:BB ratio over 5 in the minors are something special.  They don't do it on one great pitch, I can guarantee you that.  You do not relegate an arm like McCarthy's to the bullpen.  We all know Buehrle started out of the pen and that's all well and good, but it's easier to shorten and then re-lengthen an arm like Buehrle's than it is McCarthy's because of the type of pitchers they each are.

 

Both McCarthy and Buehrle are the same. They're not power pitchers so you don't have to worry about endurance as much as you would for a guy who throws a 99mph heater and a hard slider. McCarthy is like a righthanded Buehrle in terms of type of stuff. Many people thought Haren's arm shouldn't have been relegated to the bullpen and that worked out well for the Cards, A's and Haren.