White Sox Acquire Infielder Alex Cintron

[Chisoxfn]

I'll ask this....this thread has absolutely nothing to do with his Red Sox.  We're all talking about the trade, and everyone is saying how much they like the trade because either a) Cintron is a very solid utility player  or B) the great Baj is gone.  Then, redandwhite comes into the thread, and basically rips it to shreds saying how he makes too much money, has a low OPS, how the Marlins would have traded for him, etc.    It's funny, but I never thought I would be accused to causing trouble by sticking up for the White Sox.  As much as their was whiny b****ing going on between myself, redandwhite, and rock, we still managed to discuss in details various aspects of this trade, etc.  Considering that Jason was in the middle of this discussion talking about the trade, I thought things were resolved at the end.

I disagreed with some of the arguing that was going on, but at the same time some good baseball discussion came about from Red and White, you, rock, and others. I just wish people didn't attack R&W and bring up the BoSox even when it isn't discussed.

 

I think there is a lot of really great info and debate in this thread and while you guys argued Red Sox for a bit, I thought that while you guys obviously disagree and maybe even dislike each other, you still for the most part hammered it out with different facts.

[fathom]

He's been nothing less than spectacular in his last 2 years of minor league work, and he's never really had a bad year.

 

Please save the "minor leagues are meaningless" responses -- yeah, okay.  Some of us'll take that over about 10 innings in the bigs.

 

Cintron can't hurt, but when we're trading away a guy w/ a good history b/c we have Javier Lopez (with a much longer record of major league ineptitude) looking good in a few innings of spring training, it concerns me a bit, yeah.

 

It's not just his numbers in the majors which makes many of us think he can't be a decent major league reliever. He's a two pitch pitcher, and one of them is a very average fastball with no movement. And yes, minor league numbers don't mean much. Edwin Almonte was supposed to be our closer of the future, as was Joe Valentine and Royce Ring. They all had very good minor league numbers. If Lopez wasn't lefty, he wouldn't be an option. If the Sox weren't a World Series contender this year, then I'd say Baj would have a place on the roster.

Edited March 9, 2006 by fathom

[Chisoxfn]

And if you go back and read the thread, he never once brought up or mentioned a Red Sox player first, and repeatedly tried to steer the conversation back to this particular deal.  I got to see his fandom, Alex Gonzalez, and Manny Ramirez all mentioned off of the top of my head by other people who weren't RnW.  Stick up for the White Sox all you want, but what the kid thought of Alex Gonzalez meant nothing to what he thought of the deal.  It would be like me following around RockRaines and mentioning Charles Macon and Maurice Clarett as failed OSU Buckeyes everytime he posted about the White Sox.  One has nothing to do with the other, and doing so would ruin just about every thread it got posted in.  This thread was about the Baj/Cintron deal, and that is exactly what RnW posted about.  He didn't like the deal why most everyone did, and instantly someone had to mention the Red Sox, then we got 8 pages of crap with an occasional nugget of good conversation mixed in. 

 

Maybe the problems between everyone got resolved at the end, but the point I am making bore mentioning in my opinion as an admin.  Just because the kid is a Red Sox fan, doesn't mean every single thread he posts in where he disagrees with somone, they have to mention the Red Sox to validate their arguement.  It makes for terrible threads.  Maybe now RnW can post without someone mentioning the Red Sox, or WhiteSoxJosh can post without someone mentioning Kyle Orton.

Great post.

[Chisoxfn]

Everyone but one person has had good things to say about it.  Even the Baj supporters think it's a good move, and the radio reports state Cintron will be a utility outfielder, and Mackowiak will be in the outfield.

I think its worth noting that R&W never said it was a bad trade. He simply said it wasn't a steal. He said it was a good trade, but the Dbacks made it more because of cash considerations.

 

Doesnt' take away the fact that it was a good move. I think he said that the move favored the Sox, just not in the fashion in which some posters called it a steal. I tend to agree because a steal would be the type of deal involving a player who is expected to have a huge impact on the club.

 

For example...when we acquired Bartolo Colon...that was a steal. We got ourselves a super star for Osuna and some mediocre prospects (I think Rocky Biddle was a part of that trade as well).

[Soxpranos]

Like the move.. seem to remember from watching this guy.. he puts the bat on the ball and does things to help the team win.. good move.

[Felix]

And if you go back and read the thread, he never once brought up or mentioned a Red Sox player first, and repeatedly tried to steer the conversation back to this particular deal.  I got to see his fandom, Alex Gonzalez, and Manny Ramirez all mentioned off of the top of my head by other people who weren't RnW.  Stick up for the White Sox all you want, but what the kid thought of Alex Gonzalez meant nothing to what he thought of the deal.  It would be like me following around RockRaines and mentioning Charles Macon and Maurice Clarett as failed OSU Buckeyes everytime he posted about the White Sox.  One has nothing to do with the other, and doing so would ruin just about every thread it got posted in.  This thread was about the Baj/Cintron deal, and that is exactly what RnW posted about.  He didn't like the deal why most everyone did, and instantly someone had to mention the Red Sox, then we got 8 pages of crap with an occasional nugget of good conversation mixed in. 

 

Maybe the problems between everyone got resolved at the end, but the point I am making bore mentioning in my opinion as an admin.  Just because the kid is a Red Sox fan, doesn't mean every single thread he posts in where he disagrees with somone, they have to mention the Red Sox to validate their arguement.  It makes for terrible threads.  Maybe now RnW can post without someone mentioning the Red Sox, or WhiteSoxJosh can post without someone mentioning Kyle Orton.

I agree whole-heartedly.

[jackie hayes]

It's not just his numbers in the majors which makes many of us think he can't be a decent major league reliever.  He's a two pitch pitcher, and one of them is a very average fastball with no movement.  And yes, minor league numbers don't mean much.  Edwin Almonte was supposed to be our closer of the future, as was Joe Valentine and Royce Ring.  They all had very good minor league numbers.  If Lopez wasn't lefty, he wouldn't be an option.

I don't agree about the numbers. Of course they're not perfect, that doesn't mean they aren't useful. If performance in the minors didn't indicate anything, they wouldn't tend to promote players who do well. But whatever...

 

KW's big success was acquiring pitching depth -- so when Shingo stunk we had Hermanson, then when he went down we had Jenks. And Damaso and Politte were also there if we needed them. It looks like our last man in the bullpen could be a big problem. That's not a big deal by itself -- he just won't see many innings. But one disappointment and one injury later, and it's possible that we'll be scrambling for something.

 

Cintron'll help, I'm just concerned about the depth. As for the two pitches, hell, Foulke basically has one. It's not easy to get people out (k's) at aa and aaa -- he seems to use them well.

[fathom]

KW's big success was acquiring pitching depth -- so when Shingo stunk we had Hermanson, then when he went down we had Jenks.  And Damaso and Politte were also there if we needed them.  It looks like our last man in the bullpen could be a big problem.  That's not a big deal by itself -- he just won't see many innings.  But one disappointment and one injury later, and it's possible that we'll be scrambling for something.

 

Cintron'll help, I'm just concerned about the depth.  As for the two pitches, hell, Foulke basically has one.  It's not easy to get people out (k's) at aa and aaa -- he seems to use them well.

 

There's very much reason to be concerned about our bullpen. Between guys being injured, tired from last year, or just inconsistent (no position is even close to having as inconsistent of numbers as the relief position is), our bullpen looks to be weaker than last season. However, other aspects of our team look to be stronger, which will hopefully offset any weaknesses. In reality, we're not the New York Yankees. KW doesn't have the payroll to have superstars at every position with amazing depth. With that in mind, given the bullpen depth issue, I still don't think Baj would have been an option. I never got the sense that Ozzie thought highly of him, in regards to pitching in the majors.

[Balta1701]

There's very much reason to be concerned about our bullpen.  Between guys being injured, tired from last year, or just inconsistent (no position is even close to having as inconsistent of numbers as the relief position is), our bullpen looks to be weaker than last season.  However, other aspects of our team look to be stronger, which will hopefully offset any weaknesses.  In reality, we're not the New York Yankees.  KW doesn't have the payroll to have superstars at every position with amazing depth.  With that in mind, given the bullpen depth issue, I still don't think Baj would have been an option.  I never got the sense that Ozzie thought highly of him, in regards to pitching in the majors.

I still don't think I agree with the statement "our bullpen will be weaker than last year."

 

Run down the 2 "Start of the year" bullpens.

 

2005:

Politte

Hermanson

Cotts

Vizcaino

Marte

Takatsu

 

2006:

Politte

Hermanson

Cotts

McCarthy

Lopez

Jenks

 

McCarthy as a long man sure looks like a massive upgrade over Vizcaino. If nothing else, he'll be able to pitch more than 2.1 innings during an outing, so when we hit those long 13-14 inning games, we can keep from using each and every one of our guys if we're smart about when we bring in Mac.

 

Marte...well, its' hard to say he was anything to write home about last year. The other guys were so good that his ERA was artificially low, but for crying out loud, he threw a 1.72 WHIP last year.

 

Takatsu versus Jenks...well, I think hitters are much more likely to catch up with an 89 mph fastball than a 99 mph fastball.

 

Yes, we have injury concerns this year, but we also had injury concerns last year. 2 different guys on that bullpen list went down with injuries for significant amounts of time. We were able to work around it, despite having only gas cans as a replacement for Marte.

 

The one difference I will grant you is that we don't have anyone else throwing 99 in AA that we can bring up if 1 of our guys completely falters, but on paper, we have at least held constant or upgraded each position in our pen.

 

Edit: and 1 more thing...we've added a "200+ inning a year" guy to the starting lineup to replace the guy who wound up needing the bullpen the most last year in El Duque, which, combined with trying to get BMac 100+ innings from the bullpen, will probably knock down the innings for several of those guys.

Edited March 9, 2006 by Balta1701

[fathom]

I still don't think I agree with the statement "our bullpen will be weaker than last year."

 

 

Balta...I think the bullpen will be weaker because guys like Cotts and Politte won't be able to match their numbers from last year, even if they have a terrific season. They were two of the best set-up men in baseball. I don't think we can expect them to match their numbers. I'll be content if they're both in the 3.5 ERA range. Hermanson is a huge question mark right now, and I think it's safe to say that no one, not even the organization, knows what stuff he'll have this year.

[SSH2005]

Balta...I think the bullpen will be weaker because guys like Cotts and Politte won't be able to match their numbers from last year, even if they have a terrific season.  They were two of the best set-up men in baseball.  I don't think we can expect them to match their numbers.  I'll be content if they're both in the 3.5 ERA range.  Hermanson is a huge question mark right now, and I think it's safe to say that no one, not even the organization, knows what stuff he'll have this year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, just by the completely erratic nature of most relievers from year to year, most bullpens are a big question mark to start the season.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 8, 2006 -> 07:10 PM)

And if you go back and read the thread, he never once brought up or mentioned a Red Sox player first, and repeatedly tried to steer the conversation back to this particular deal.  I got to see his fandom, Alex Gonzalez, and Manny Ramirez all mentioned off of the top of my head by other people who weren't RnW.  Stick up for the White Sox all you want, but what the kid thought of Alex Gonzalez meant nothing to what he thought of the deal.  It would be like me following around RockRaines and mentioning Charles Macon and Maurice Clarett as failed OSU Buckeyes everytime he posted about the White Sox.  One has nothing to do with the other, and doing so would ruin just about every thread it got posted in.  This thread was about the Baj/Cintron deal, and that is exactly what RnW posted about.  He didn't like the deal why most everyone did, and instantly someone had to mention the Red Sox, then we got 8 pages of crap with an occasional nugget of good conversation mixed in. 

 

Maybe the problems between everyone got resolved at the end, but the point I am making bore mentioning in my opinion as an admin.  Just because the kid is a Red Sox fan, doesn't mean every single thread he posts in where he disagrees with somone, they have to mention the Red Sox to validate their arguement.  It makes for terrible threads.  Maybe now RnW can post without someone mentioning the Red Sox, or WhiteSoxJosh can post without someone mentioning Kyle Orton.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank You.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Mar 8, 2006 -> 07:27 PM)

I think its worth noting that R&W never said it was a bad trade.  He simply said it wasn't a steal.  He said it was a good trade, but the Dbacks made it more because of cash considerations. 

 

Doesnt' take away the fact that it was a good move.  I think he said that the move favored the Sox, just not in the fashion in which some posters called it a steal.  I tend to agree because a steal would be the type of deal involving a player who is expected to have a huge impact on the club.

 

For example...when we acquired Bartolo Colon...that was a steal.  We got ourselves a super star for Osuna and some mediocre prospects (I think Rocky Biddle was a part of that trade as well).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Excellent post. I think someone else needed to clarify because when something is said from my name, it is going in one ear and out the other.

 

Thanks.

[jackie hayes]

There's very much reason to be concerned about our bullpen.  Between guys being injured, tired from last year, or just inconsistent (no position is even close to having as inconsistent of numbers as the relief position is), our bullpen looks to be weaker than last season.  However, other aspects of our team look to be stronger, which will hopefully offset any weaknesses.  In reality, we're not the New York Yankees.  KW doesn't have the payroll to have superstars at every position with amazing depth.  With that in mind, given the bullpen depth issue, I still don't think Baj would have been an option.  I never got the sense that Ozzie thought highly of him, in regards to pitching in the majors.

I think that last part is right. But our next best rh option is Tim Redding.

 

You never know, but in Redding's case, I'm really, really hoping I don't know.

[Milkman delivers]

Uh, I haven't read this thread since about 12:00. Has anything important been said, besides that the Sox traded Bajenaru for Cintron?

[SoxFan1]

Uh, I haven't read this thread since about 12:00.  Has anything important been said, besides that the Sox traded Bajenaru for Cintron?

Absolutely not.

[Balta1701]

Balta...I think the bullpen will be weaker because guys like Cotts and Politte won't be able to match their numbers from last year, even if they have a terrific season.  They were two of the best set-up men in baseball.  I don't think we can expect them to match their numbers.  I'll be content if they're both in the 3.5 ERA range.  Hermanson is a huge question mark right now, and I think it's safe to say that no one, not even the organization, knows what stuff he'll have this year.

Even if that is the case...I think the upgrades that we have made to the pitching staff as a whole are enough to balance out any declines amongst those too, to the point that it will have virtually no gigantic effect on the team.

[mr_genius]

Balta...I think the bullpen will be weaker because guys like Cotts and Politte won't be able to match their numbers from last year, even if they have a terrific season.  They were two of the best set-up men in baseball.  I don't think we can expect them to match their numbers.  I'll be content if they're both in the 3.5 ERA range.  Hermanson is a huge question mark right now, and I think it's safe to say that no one, not even the organization, knows what stuff he'll have this year.

 

 

good points, but i still think the addition of McCarthy makes our pen in 2006 better than 2005. Also, Jenks gained valuable experience last season and could be even more dominant this year. Hermanson's health is a question mark, but I have confidence in Cotts and Politte having fairly similar seasons this year as last (maybe not as good, but your evaluation of 3.5 ERA's for both sounds pretty good... i'll be happy with an era in the low 3's for both).

[jackie hayes]

...it will have virtually no gigantic effect...

 

Sorry, but for someone usually pretty careful about his wording...

[Balta1701]

 

Sorry, but for someone usually pretty careful about his wording...

Yeah, that one was a bit off kilter, wasn't it?

[jackie hayes]

Yeah, that one was a bit off kilter, wasn't it?

It was just slightly catastrophic, yes.

[Balta1701]

It was just slightly catastrophic, yes.

Story of my life.

[mr_genius]

Story of my life.

 

 

shut up please

 

and by please i mean now

 

Edited March 9, 2006 by mr_genius

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Shouldn't you be watching the Big East Tournament today?  That's right, DePaul's not in it.  Just kidding.....

 

Not to change the subject, but you think Mejia and Chandler will come back?

 

Asshole.

 

Yeah, I do think they both come back. Sammy will be a senior, and hopefully Chandler recognizes how big he can be here at DePaul. He has the talent...hope he has the character to go with it.

[Bubba Philips]

Asshole.

 

Yeah, I do think they both come back.  Sammy will be a senior, and hopefully Chandler recognizes how big he can be here at DePaul.  He has the talent...hope he has the character to go with it.

I finally got to the end. I didn't see it mentioned KW may have made the trade in case Crede went down. Correct me if I'm wrong as far as fielding are shorstop and third baseman are world class. With Crede's history of back problems are best option at the hot corner would be going to Uribe... Cintron lags behind Uribe in fielding but could play well enough for shorstop. With McKowiak substituting on occasion I believe we could get through the seaon. Since the end of last season I believe the sox have a glut of talent that could result in another trade or two before the season begins. Just because we can't use Gload or Borchard doesn't mean they would not be needed on other teams. KW is not finished Cintron is only another beginning.