I think I say this on behalf of most of the people here...

[LVSoxFan]

Lame. That's the same crap Cub fans have spewed for years and there isn't an ounce of truth to it. Part of the damn reason why the Cubs always have and always will suck is that their management and ownership know that the lemmings will pack Wrigley and watch on WGN come hell or high water, so they have no incentive to put a quality product on the field. Hence, the true blue fans are part of the problem. They're enablers.

 

For me, there is no logical or rational reason to continue supporting this team. To do so is insanity.

 

EDIT: treed by ten minutes lol

 

BINGO! WINNAH. "Enablers" is right.

 

As soon as the Sox show me that I can come to a game and have a REASONABLE expectation that I might see a win, I'll be there, trust me. Even a tough loss I could handle.

 

But this cannon-fodder June is just too much to take.

Edited June 25, 2007 by LVSoxFan

[Steff]

Explain, because telling them to go to hell seems to be about the same thing to me. Just a fan expressing anger that their team is awful.

 

If it seems the same then you can not be helped. Common sense is something you have or you don't.

[Adam G]

If it seems the same then you can not be helped. Common sense is something you have or you don't.

You can't back up what you say? Shocker!

 

PS - I assume you see LV agreed with my post. Another shocker!

Edited June 25, 2007 by Adam G

[Steff]

You can't back up what you say? Shocker!

 

PS - I assume you see LV agreed with my post. Another shocker!

 

 

I can back it up because it's what I do. I support this team no matter what and deal with the growing pains rather than throw a hissy fit like a 2 year old. I, unlike a lot of posters here, dealt with the s*** of the 80's and early 90's WHILE paying for season tickets. I also have plenty of friends who DON'T pay for season tickets but also don't cry like a sissy baby when the Sox have a bad year. You are a perfect example of a wagon jumper. Break a leg when ya fall off...

 

I see he agreed with the Cubs fans being called enablers. Read much..?

 

His stance to not financially support the Sox is one I can and do respect.

[Allsox]

Yep. That is what a good fan is supposed to do.

A good fan, however, also can moan and groan and sell their tickets 'cause this has been

playing some really bad, historically bad baseball.

But anybody who totally abandons this team is what they call a front runner.

This is embarrassing and sick to watch, but a true fan won't totally abandon ship.

They will b**** and groan and drink themselves to oblivion, but not wear paper bags over their

heads like that moron asshole shown on WGN today.

Hey bagman, did you have that bag over your head when the Sox won the World Series?

Get a grip, man.

 

to you and Steff for some much needed perspective.

I loved watching the White Sox since 1986, when those teams and fan support were really pathetic so the play of this yr's team still is far from that level of so-called embarassment.

 

I also see the blame game is being played on KW instead of Ozzie now but without hindsight, the best laid plans oft go astray. KW had a plan, yes, it didn't work, but I have the confidence that he will put together a new one, one that will have thought, direction and purpose, just like he had in '05.

[Adam G]

I can back it up because it's what I do. I support this team no matter what and deal with the growing pains rather than throw a hissy fit like a 2 year old.

Growing pains? This is NOT a team full of kids waiting to develop. This is 90% of the team that won it all two years ago and all of a sudden fell off the wagon. You can't look out on the field and see the future of the franchise, outside of Danks, Fields, and Jenks. All you can do is wonder who is being traded and for whom.

 

Even more disturbing is that they just dont seem to care. (see any of the recent player interviews talking about a lack of fire and/or intensity)

I, unlike a lot of posters here, dealt with the s*** of the 80's and early 90's WHILE paying for season tickets.

You're wearing that like a badge of honor, but to me it's just silly. To each his/her own though.

I also have plenty of friends who DON'T pay for season tickets but also don't cry like a sissy baby when the Sox have a bad year.

Who is crying? Between you and me, I'm the realist here.

You are a perfect example of a wagon jumper. Break a leg when ya fall off...

Says the lemming about to walk off the cliff.

I see he agreed with the Cubs fans being called enablers. Read much..?

He quoted my whole post.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Adam G

[Steff]

Growing pains? This is NOT a team full of kids waiting to develop. This is 90% of the team that won it all two years ago and all of a sudden fell off the wagon. You can't look out on the field and see the future of the franchise, outside of Danks, Fields, and Jenks. All you can do is wonder who is being traded and for whom.

 

Even more disturbing is that they just dont seem to care. (see any of the recent player interviews talking about a lack of fire and/or intensity)

 

You're wearing that like a badge of honor, but to me it's just silly. To each his/her own though.

 

Who is crying? Between you and me, I'm the realist here.

 

Says the lemming about to walk off the cliff.

 

He quoted my whole post.

 

1. Tell me something I don't know, and haven't said on THIS SITE at least 50 times the past 2 weeks.

2. I know first hand that they don't care and I've been saying it since the start of the season. This is a group of passive boys who care more about getting drunk and their golf game than how they do their job.

3. No badge. Just the facts.

4. Real ignorant, IMO.

5. Walk off the cliff.. that's hysterical. My family has been paying for Sox tickets for nearly 40 years.. if we haven't walked yet, this ain't gonna do it.

6. And was crystal clear in agreeing with the enabler comment, which I don't think anyone would disagree with.

[LVSoxFan]

2. I know first hand that they don't care and I've been saying it since the start of the season. This is a group of passive boys who care more about getting drunk and their golf game than how they do their job.

 

!!!!

 

I'd like to hear more about this, if you'd care to spill. What'd you hear?

[WCSox]

Not all the seats are paid for, still a lot of tickets to be sold..... Every team has bad years, grow a pair and deal with it.

 

I would love to see some of you kids deal with the crap of the 80's. I'm guessing a rise in suicides on the south side.

 

No kidding. I'd hate to see what some of the people in this thread would do if they got laid off or went through a bad time with their significant other.

 

I've been actively following this team for 25 years and my loyalty was rewarded handsomely less than two years ago. There's no way I turn my back on them. No freaking way.

[Chisoxfn]

Well said.

The thing i look forward to most is what changes are made and what young players will come up. The thing that kills me about watching the club right now is, aside from some of the starting pitchers and Konerko/Dye/Thome/Fields I have very little reason to get any enjoyment out of the team (because it is so incredibly frustrating and there are so few young players to look at grow).

 

When a team is bad I hope to at least be able to see glimpses of the future but right now you just see the Sox getting worse and worse and completely self destructing. I really can't wait till a few deals are made and some exciting, yet I'm sure what will be frustrating, youth comes on over. We need an influx of talent and hopefluly that influx will be good enough to allow Kenny to make some moves again this off-season and slowly get this team fueled up to at least give it a shot in the next couple years (if he does things right I think it is fully possible).

[The Beast]

Explain, because telling them to go to hell seems to be about the same thing to me. Just a fan expressing anger that their team is awful.

 

Go play in traffic. kthnx

 

 

Wow.

 

!!!!

 

I'd like to hear more about this, if you'd care to spill. What'd you hear?

Yeah, I want to hear about this, too. What'd you hear?

[The Beast]

The thing i look forward to most is what changes are made and what young players will come up. The thing that kills me about watching the club right now is, aside from some of the starting pitchers and Konerko/Dye/Thome/Fields I have very little reason to get any enjoyment out of the team (because it is so incredibly frustrating and there are so few young players to look at grow).

 

When a team is bad I hope to at least be able to see glimpses of the future but right now you just see the Sox getting worse and worse and completely self destructing. I really can't wait till a few deals are made and some exciting, yet I'm sure what will be frustrating, youth comes on over. We need an influx of talent and hopefluly that influx will be good enough to allow Kenny to make some moves again this off-season and slowly get this team fueled up to at least give it a shot in the next couple years (if he does things right I think it is fully possible).

You know, contrary to many of you, I find Podsednik to be entertaining. He steals bases when he gets on, and gives us a chance to execute. The enjoyment I get out of these games these days is that Crede is not playing (I need to change my signature) and that Fields is. They look like an exact copy of each other to me. I enjoy seeing AJ play because he actually gives a damn, at least from what I can see. He pisses people off, plays some hard nosed baseball and shows emotion on the field. Another person I enjoy watching is Ozuna, even though he is on the DL, he made the game exciting. And I'm sure most of us really enjoy watching Buehrle when he plays because, well, he keeps the game going, gets outs and keeps us in the hunt for wins.

 

Anyway, my point being is that, yes, the team is destructing, but I don't think that we should trade Buehrle, and that we should move Dye more than anyone. He is god awful in right field and I can't stand him. It will be nice when I do not have to see Anderson, Crede, Dye, MacDougal, Contreras, Bukvich, Gonzalez, Terrero and quite possibly Iguchi or Uribe playing for this team. I hope Kenny takes this ship in another direction, but while he does it, I hope Buehrle isn't among the casualties.

[Hideaway Lights]

The true test of how a fan, coach, manager, general manager handles his or her respective part of this organization is how one composes oneself during adverse times. A lot of people in this thread are not composing themselves very well. Yes, it's alright to be angry at this team. Yes, a lot of changes need to be made. Knee-jerk reactions are not the solution. Yes, everyone else is on tilt here. Let's get it together, folks. We are all on the same side here.

 

We've had exactly 160 or so games of things going truly badly. Ever since just before the all-star break last year until now, things have been about as bad as they have been in the past 25 years of this organization. I think over that stretch we've probably compiled about a 60-100 record.

 

Ok. That sucks, but it's still just a season worth of games.

 

I'm willing to give Kenny Williams a chance to atone for the fact that he's made some mistakes and see how he adjusts to unfamiliar territory. This has nothing to do with loyalty or his world series ring, but because quite frankly, we don't have a lot of other good options to fill a general manager's seat right at this moment. As far as Ozzie goes, I just don't see how you can possibly put the lion's share of the losses directly on him, although it's clear that he'll probably need to go over the course of the next two seasons because I'm not sure he's the right guy for a youth movement, although time will tell. And once again, I'm not sure we have a lot of great options from a coaching standpoint right now.

 

This season is lost. No amount of firings is going to change that. The best possible scenario for right now is that we keep losing for a week or so because then there's no chance that Williams will delude himself into believing the White Sox are capable of some absurd second half run. We need to get value, and lots of it, for Jermaine Dye and Mark Buehrle.

 

Also, no matter what happens with attendance (I hope that they draw, personally), the White Sox are probably due for a rollback in payroll here. It just feels right with how this organization runs itself AS OPPOSED to the Cubs. They tried the big spender way, and it didn't really work. So they'll roll back a bit and probably play it more conservatively. Never compare the two, and never compare the two fanbases. It's insulting to everyone.

[Balance]

2. I know first hand that they don't care and I've been saying it since the start of the season. This is a group of passive boys who care more about getting drunk and their golf game than how they do their job.

 

Allow me to be the third to inquire- What have you heard?

 

And for those of us who are newer (I still count as newer after 2 years, right?) to this board, can you fill us in as to what your connection to the team is? I've wondered for a while. Thanks!

[thedoctor]

i think you get into dangerous territory when you start trying to define "good fan" and "bad fan." everyone deals with this kind of failure in their own way and i don't think any one course of coping or other shows whether you are a good fan or a bad fan. i tend to respect everyone's right to react however they see fit.

[Balance]

i think you get into dangerous territory when you start trying to define "good fan" and "bad fan." everyone deals with this kind of failure in their own way and i don't think any one course of coping or other shows whether you are a good fan or a bad fan. i tend to respect everyone's right to react however they see fit.

^^^^^^^^

 

What he said.

[rangercal]

I personally think this team will only benefit from this collapse. Even more so than a 90 win season.

 

It will be nice to seethe sox have 10-15 more prospects in their system.

 

Im sure the sox still have enough revenue where they can at the very least have a 90 million payroll.

 

So I do like the idea of :

a) trading all our high salary vets for prospects

B) plug a few of those prospects on our 25 man roster in 2008

c) sign a few free agents this offseason with all the saved money.

 

If Kenny can get teams in bidding wars, we can be back in contention by 2009.

[The Beast]

i think you get into dangerous territory when you start trying to define "good fan" and "bad fan." everyone deals with this kind of failure in their own way and i don't think any one course of coping or other shows whether you are a good fan or a bad fan. i tend to respect everyone's right to react however they see fit.

QFT. Exactly. The fact is, you can't set a bar of how everyone is supposed to respond and say, "No, your not a true fan because you didn't see them through the 1980's," or whatever. There's a new generation of Sox fans here and if this is how we react to our team failing, then so be it.

[Allsox]

I know first hand that they don't care and I've been saying it since the start of the season. This is a group of passive boys who care more about getting drunk and their golf game than how they do their job.

 

Steff, if this is true (And I have no reason to doubt it), then nobody here can blame Ozzie and KW for this season then. Lazy b$@#ards

[LVSoxFan]

i think you get into dangerous territory when you start trying to define "good fan" and "bad fan." everyone deals with this kind of failure in their own way and i don't think any one course of coping or other shows whether you are a good fan or a bad fan. i tend to respect everyone's right to react however they see fit.

 

I think you're spot-on.

 

While I don't think the White Sox should "go to hell," I can understand the kind of frustration that would incite that kind of mentality.

 

For me it means no longer trying to go to as many games as possible, or caring about watching them on TV. The idea that we're going to have to sit through at least another half and then offseason to contend is especially brutal.

 

But whether it's a bag on your head, going to the games regardless, whatever--people show their displeasure in different ways. I think if they weren't Sox fans (real ones), they wouldn't bother posting here. I wouldn't.

 

And I'm sure some of the guys here didn't suffer through some of the 80s teams too, BUT, to their credit, those teams seemed to at least try whereas this team seems like a collection of once-glorious champions who just don't give a crap.

 

The loser Cubs schooled us on Sunday--I hate them but THAT team was everything that we are not yesterday. Full of piss n' vinegar and making things exciting. When was the last time you felt that way about this club?

[Wanne]

2. I know first hand that they don't care and I've been saying it since the start of the season. This is a group of passive boys who care more about getting drunk and their golf game than how they do their job.

 

If this is true...and I'm not saying I don't buy it because it would make 100% sense and explain a lot....but I think this probably pisses me off more than anything.

[RibbieRubarb]

I support anyone here to feel bad about this team. This is a bad team. You should be critical of their motivations on and off the field.

 

But there is a fine line with being a realistic, critical fan and one that says "Go to Hell"

 

Heck, I, myself, am responsible for one the widely publicized acts of fan rebellion against White Sox mediocrity in 1998 with my friend Rob. I was ESPN and interviewed on The Score for my actions. Many called me a bad fan.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/...9/twins_chisox/

 

Look I am very critical of this team, but I am portrayed as an enabler because I do not subscribe to mob mentality of Fire Everyone, Trade everyone and the team can go to hell. Such extreme negativity is not healthy as a sports fan because it is not realistic.

 

You love this team...why else would be here.

You love this team...why else would it get you mad.

 

But sometimes you need to think logically and promote intelligent discourse on the problem.

 

You just cannot say "Ozzie is the WORST manager in baseball and Kenny Williams is the WORST GM!"

That's just not true...but if you beleive that. State why...just don't leave blanket statements out there.

 

Look...saying "Ozzie is the BEST manager in baseball" is just as bad. It is also not true.

 

There is a balance when talking about baseball. It is not just extreme negative or postive...it is always in the middle.

Baseball is not about perfection...so there will be good and bad with every pitch, play, game, and player.

It's up to YOU to see both sides to establish the proper perspective.

I think that's what people like me and others are trying to promote on this message board.

Balance.

Not: "Go to Hell White Sox...This team is the WORST" or "They will Turn it around and win it all in 2007, I know it!"

 

Show you displeasure by not buying tickets. Thats fine. If you do buy tickets you have the right to "Boo" at bad plays. Thats fine.

Be reasonable and think.

We love this team. I love this team. Lets trade who we need to trade. Let's sign who we need to sign. Let's give Ozze and Kenny the chance they deserve to turn this aorund next year.

Edited June 25, 2007 by RibbieRubarb

[Steff]

i think you get into dangerous territory when you start trying to define "good fan" and "bad fan." everyone deals with this kind of failure in their own way and i don't think any one course of coping or other shows whether you are a good fan or a bad fan. i tend to respect everyone's right to react however they see fit.

 

 

This has been said a million times, and it's 100% correct, yet you still have folks calling people stupid for spending money, making posts that they are "done" with the Sox, telling them to "go to hell" etc, etc... I'm just as pissed as ayone else, but to walk away from something that has been as second nature to me as breathing for as long as I can remember just makes no sense to me.

 

As for what I heard and saw, I think Pods sumed it up well on Saturday. As well, I think it would be inappropriate to post specific comments and actions. Sorry. Flame away..

[vandy125]

i think you get into dangerous territory when you start trying to define "good fan" and "bad fan." everyone deals with this kind of failure in their own way and i don't think any one course of coping or other shows whether you are a good fan or a bad fan. i tend to respect everyone's right to react however they see fit.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Sure, people can and will react any way that they see fit, but there are things that are just plain wrong, and telling someone to "go to hell" is something that is just plain wrong. Why would you ever wish that on anyone? Think a bit about what you say.

[Steff]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Sure, people can and will react any way that they see fit, but there are things that are just plain wrong, and telling someone to "go to hell" is something that is just plain wrong. Why would you ever wish that on anyone? Think a bit about what you say.

 

 

I would agree that "go to hell" is outside of the "good fan, bad fan" argument. I don't think he was defending that behavior at all.