Ozzie Extension

[southsideirish]

Before getting into names of managers better than Guillen, you can agree with the philosophy of replacing an inferior manager with a superior one, correct?

Who doesn't agree with that philosophy. You would first have to come to agreeance that Ozzie is an inferior manager, which I and many others don't agree with. I am sorry you don't, but that is not my problem.

[TheBigHurt]

I don't appreciate the implication that anyone who feels Ozzie is a good manager is "delusional" or "needs a brain". I simply disagree with your assessment, and whether you feel Ozzie is a problem, be prepared to see him here a long time...

 

I just see that you are supporting Ozzie with no backup to your apparent statement that he's a good manager, and a laughable "you need to watch games," when anyone actually watching them can see he's atrocious. Just sayin'.

[NorthSideSox72]

I just see that you are supporting Ozzie with no backup to your apparent statement that he's a good manager, and a laughable "you need to watch games," when anyone actually watching them can see he's atrocious. Just sayin'.

YOU think he is atrocious. Many people here feel otherwise. Its not a situation of fact - its subjective.

 

Just sayin'.

 

[kwolf68]

What Ozzie really needs is a good bench coach.

 

 

talented players.

 

I don't think Ozzie is the greatest manager in history, but Casey Stengel couldn't win with this team.

[shoota]

talented players.

 

I don't think Ozzie is the greatest manager in history, but Casey Stengel couldn't win with this team.

 

Could anybody have won with this team? Probably few, if any. But could Stengel have won in 2006? Could a handful of modern-day managers have won in 2006?

 

A bad 2007 roster doesn't mean Guillen is a good manager.

[29andPoplar]

I just see that you are supporting Ozzie with no backup to your apparent statement that he's a good manager, and a laughable "you need to watch games," when anyone actually watching them can see he's atrocious. Just sayin'.

 

You appear to be fond of generalizations. "Anyone actually watching them can see he's atrocious."

 

Well, I have been watching just about every game, just as I have for about 25 years and I don't see a guy who is atrocious, I see a guy who doesn't have much productive talent to work with.

 

Here is what you said:

 

"LOL. If you don't think Ozzie is an atrocious manager, then you are a pot calling the kettle black and it's YOU who need to watch games. I have watched nearly every game this season, and the last 2 seasons. I don't recall every detail of every one, but you don't need to remember every little detail to know that Ozzie is a brutal in-game manager, and the less magically the team works together and gets wins, it becomes more and more obvious. I can think of a few very poorly managed games in the last couple weeks alone.

 

I don't hate him or anything, but Ozzie supporters have a tendency of being really delusional, and this coming from a more casual fan that doesn't obsess over statistics and constant analysis. Anyone with a brain can see that Ozzie can't manage his way out of a bag."

 

-----------------------

 

You admit you're just a casual fan. Yet you pronouce Guillen as an "atrocious" manager. Further you claim to recall a few very poorly managed games in the last couple weeks alone.

 

Please share with us when those games were, and what he could have done different, and your personal insight into knowing specifically WHY he could have done things differently. After all, reading your posts it is clear to me you have access to clubhouse information and you know who is ready to go, who is healthy, and why certain moves should have been made at specific times. Quite impressive for a self professed casual fan. Please tell the rest of us why we are delusional, citing specific examples. Please tell us why Guillen can't manage his way out of a paper bag, citing specific examples. Also please spare us the line of "ask fathom if you want examples". You are making the statements, please be so kind as to back them up. After all, anyone with a brain can back up what they say.

 

Oh, also tell us ... specifically ... why he is a brutal in game manager, and please come up with something a little more in depth than "he is too appendage aware" or "BA didn't get a fair shake" as has been stated on this site before, which I'm guessing you've read and embraced.

 

Here is my take. You don't know a whole lot of what you're talking about. You read message boards and get caught up in what other people say. Then you get frustrated with a losing team in 2007 and decide to spout a bunch of absolutes, generalizations, and blanket statements on a message board. Further, you try to demean people by saying if they don't agree with your opinion, they are "delusional" and "lacking a brain".

 

Please note, I am not saying Guillen doesn't make mistakes, he does. However, I would like your take, seeing you have made numerous generalizations and absolute statments, indicating which specific games and which specific situations and how you would have done it differently and how you have the knowledge to know it definitively could have been done differently.

[RockRaines]

Before getting into names of managers better than Guillen, you can agree with the philosophy of replacing an inferior manager with a superior one, correct?

And that would be...............

 

Every manager in the game has someone better than him except for one. Thanks for the lesson though.

[TheBigHurt]

You appear to be fond of generalizations. "Anyone actually watching them can see he's atrocious."

 

Well, I have been watching just about every game, just as I have for about 25 years and I don't see a guy who is atrocious, I see a guy who doesn't have much productive talent to work with.

 

Here is what you said:

 

"LOL. If you don't think Ozzie is an atrocious manager, then you are a pot calling the kettle black and it's YOU who need to watch games. I have watched nearly every game this season, and the last 2 seasons. I don't recall every detail of every one, but you don't need to remember every little detail to know that Ozzie is a brutal in-game manager, and the less magically the team works together and gets wins, it becomes more and more obvious. I can think of a few very poorly managed games in the last couple weeks alone.

 

I don't hate him or anything, but Ozzie supporters have a tendency of being really delusional, and this coming from a more casual fan that doesn't obsess over statistics and constant analysis. Anyone with a brain can see that Ozzie can't manage his way out of a bag."

 

-----------------------

 

You admit you're just a casual fan. Yet you pronouce Guillen as an "atrocious" manager. Further you claim to recall a few very poorly managed games in the last couple weeks alone.

 

Please share with us when those games were, and what he could have done different, and your personal insight into knowing specifically WHY he could have done things differently. After all, reading your posts it is clear to me you have access to clubhouse information and you know who is ready to go, who is healthy, and why certain moves should have been made at specific times. Quite impressive for a self professed casual fan. Please tell the rest of us why we are delusional, citing specific examples. Please tell us why Guillen can't manage his way out of a paper bag, citing specific examples. Also please spare us the line of "ask fathom if you want examples". You are making the statements, please be so kind as to back them up. After all, anyone with a brain can back up what they say.

 

Oh, also tell us ... specifically ... why he is a brutal in game manager, and please come up with something a little more in depth than "he is too appendage aware" or "BA didn't get a fair shake" as has been stated on this site before, which I'm guessing you've read and embraced.

 

Here is my take. You don't know a whole lot of what you're talking about. You read message boards and get caught up in what other people say. Then you get frustrated with a losing team in 2007 and decide to spout a bunch of absolutes, generalizations, and blanket statements on a message board. Further, you try to demean people by saying if they don't agree with your opinion, they are "delusional" and "lacking a brain".

 

Please note, I am not saying Guillen doesn't make mistakes, he does. However, I would like your take, seeing you have made numerous generalizations and absolute statments, indicating which specific games and which specific situations and how you would have done it differently and how you have the knowledge to know it definitively could have been done differently.

 

What is a generalization? "Ozzie is an atrocious manager who makes a LOT of mistakes" is NOT a generalization. it's a fact. YES, Ozzie does have limited talent, but isn't a majority of this "talent" still here from the 2005 team?

 

So you're saying that if Ozzie leaves Jose Contreras in for 8 innings until he gives up, I think 3-5 runs in a single inning, and puts the shift on a guy batting .198, and the guy bunts it down the line foul, and then the shift stays put (that was such a poorly managed game it's ridiculous)... this is all because the PLAYERS lack talent and ability? RIIIIIIGHT.

 

LOL. I AM a casual fan, but I guess that makes me completely ignorant and means that I never know anything? That if I see obviously horrible management that I don't know it? That was a low blow and you know it. Absolutely irrelevant. That single-handedly takes away any substance you actually have in the argument.

 

 

I find your post falsely reasonable. I know damn well what I'm talking about. Seriously, if you CLAIM to watch a lot of games and need examples of Ozzie's bad management, you simply aren't paying attention, know absolutely nothing about baseball (again, coming from me that's pathetic), are in complete and utter denial, or are an Ozzie fanboy. Or a combination of these.

Edited September 7, 2007 by TheBigHurt

[southsideirish]

I just see that you are supporting Ozzie with no backup to your apparent statement that he's a good manager, and a laughable "you need to watch games," when anyone actually watching them can see he's atrocious. Just sayin'.

 

I watch almost every game. I believe he is a very good manager. I don't think he is the greatest manager, but I think he is far from an inferior or atrocious manager.

Just sayin'.

[southsideirish]

Could anybody have won with this team? Probably few, if any. But could Stengel have won in 2006? Could a handful of modern-day managers have won in 2006?

 

A bad 2007 roster doesn't mean Guillen is a good manager.

How many could have won with that 2005 team. That was a hell of a job. Who thought that team would win 99 games and lose only once in the playoffs on the way to a World Series Championship? Of course he had nothing to do with that. Only the bad things, right? Last year his bullpen literallly fell apart. Ask Jim Leyland and the 2007 Tigers how that feels.

[southsideirish]

What is a generalization? "Ozzie is an atrocious manager who makes a LOT of mistakes" is NOT a generalization. it's a fact. YES, Ozzie does have limited talent, but isn't a majority of this "talent" still here from the 2005 team?

 

Wrong. Go look at how different the team actually is. I think you will be surprised.

[TheBigHurt]

I watch almost every game. I believe he is a very good manager. I don't think he is the greatest manager, but I think he is far from an inferior or atrocious manager.

Just sayin'.

 

Okay, so maybe atrocious is a little harsh. Very bad most of the time might be a better way to put it. So many people that say they watch every game and yet think he's really good. LOL. Maybe you missed my post and example. Seriously, he quite often defies common baseball sense. How is that NOT a bad manager? When you constantly mishandle your players and even the plays, that's bad. And I'm definitely not the only Ozzie critic here. I can't remember every bad thing he does (probably because he does it so much), but those that I do remember or simply remember times when they were done were really bad, and I've seen a lot of outrages over his bad managing quite often, especially this year. Since he seems to have less talent this time, I guess his lack of ability has been highlighted more and more.

[southsideirish]

Okay, so maybe atrocious is a little harsh. Very bad most of the time might be a better way to put it. So many people that say they watch every game and yet think he's really good. LOL. Maybe you missed my post and example. Seriously, he quite often defies common baseball sense. How is that NOT a bad manager? When you constantly mishandle your players and even the plays, that's bad. And I'm definitely not the only Ozzie critic here. I can't remember every bad thing he does (probably because he does it so much), but those that I do remember or simply remember times when they were done were really bad, and I've seen a lot of outrages over his bad managing quite often, especially this year. Since he seems to have less talent this time, I guess his lack of ability has been highlighted more and more.

A lot of managers defy common baseball sense every day, but they have superior talent. Maybe you don't watch many other games than the Sox. You find it laughable that we watch every game and think he is good. I find it laughable that you think the opposite. Opinions.

 

Who says and how do you know he mishandles his players? You? Who are you to know or say? You are not in the clubhouse or his boss. YOu have no idea what is going on. You are just another message board poster. Who cares?

[witesoxfan]

talented players.

 

I don't think Ozzie is the greatest manager in history, but Casey Stengel couldn't win with this team.

 

I'm not talking this year. In my mind - some will disagree, others will agree - Ozzie cost the Sox the division last year. There were certain factors, such as the pitching staff falling apart, that were uncontrolled. Podsednik leading off all but one game he started and Mackowiak playing in CF 33% of the time were huge detractors from what the team could have done. I also didn't feel Gload got nearly enough playing time, but that's a matter of opinion. Still, a good bench coach suggests that he try a change, and perhaps something clicks; like, for instance, starting Iguchi in the leadoff spot instead of Podsednik for a game.

 

I think people would really be surprised what a big influence years of experience would have on Ozzie.

[SkokieSox]

Getting rid of Ozzie right now would be like getting rid of a young player after a year when they've shown signs that they can be a star player. What Ozzie really needs is a good bench coach.

 

Ozzie is not a good manager right now, and he's never been a good in-game manager; however, he has the potential to be one of the best managers in the majors. He never will reach that potential with Joey Cora as his bench coach, nor with Rock, nor with Harold. Bring Nossek back, or bring in Jack McKeon, or someone of the ilk. Ozzie needs a strong influence, and he has never had that.

 

Now we're getting somewhere - this is an overlooked observation. Nossek, although I believe his departure was due to health concerns (if I'm remembering correctly), would be an excellent candidate. Man could that guy smell out a steal attempt! I'm fairly young, but I'm yet to witness someone better. McKeon, another potential solide move, who Ozzie could work well with. Both are probably long shots, but I like the line of thinking. Ozzie is not the issue by himself, and he does have the ability to run a championship club. Its a situation like any other manager in baseball - he's in need of a solid supporting cast. I like Cora at third again, replacement bench coach, Shines at first, Walk batting coach, Coop pitching, Ozzie at the helm, and Baines retiring.

[TheBigHurt]

A lot of managers defy common baseball sense every day, but they have superior talent. Maybe you don't watch many other games than the Sox. You find it laughable that we watch every game and think he is good. I find it laughable that you think the opposite. Opinions.

 

Who says and how do you know he mishandles his players? You? Who are you to know or say? You are not in the clubhouse or his boss. YOu have no idea what is going on. You are just another message board poster. Who cares?

 

Jesus H. Christ, how many of you ACTUALLY watch the games? Maybe I'm not as ignorant a fan as I thought. How do I know he mishandles the players? I WATCH the damn games! And I know there are a lot of people on this site that actually know it. And I'm the one with the BAD memory, and even though most instances are vague in my memory, I rememebr that they happened. So in addition to the hideously managed Contreras game I mentioned, I remember a couple of times Pods shouldn't have been in LF and was (the infamous head bonk play), TONS of times the outfield setup was hideous, Buerhle and Garland being taken out in the 6th or 7th when they were rolling (while an ailing Contreras giving up runs like crazy often lasts longer), numerous horrible pitching changes that benefited the hitter (statistically at the very least), etc. It happens ALL THE TIME. So you're telling me most or all managers lack as much attention to detail and make as many horrible moves as Ozzie does? Boy, some of you must be on the Sox payroll. You can say a better bench coach is the solution whether it is or not, but the point is as it is now Ozzie is not a great manager. Period. You can't tell me too many other professional managers would have handled that Contreras situation the same. No freaking way.

 

Yep, I'm just another poster. So are you. EXCELLENT point, my man. That was such a nice shot you took at me. Thanks to another poster for trying to come off as intelligent only to make another ignorant, contradictory statement. Just stick to trying to talk baseball and not get personal. You might actually come across as professional to some people (although you probably still do, sadly). This is why I don't join in on the complaining of Cubs fans. Sox fans can be just as bad.

Edited September 7, 2007 by TheBigHurt

[fathom]

Pitching to Morneau with an open base and two outs with Cirillo on deck was the 2nd worst managerial move of the season. Of course, the Contreras debacle in Boston should have books written about it.

[greg775]

Like somebody said, Connie Mack couldn't manage this team to victories.

The veterans sucked.

Injuries.

The bullpen would drive any manager to drink.

Even today, an automatic win and poor Bobby has his first bad day in a long time.

Another loss.

 

It AINT OZ'S FAULT.

How bout the veterans WHO CANT HIT (can you say Dye, AJ, Thome, Paulie, Uribe, Erstad).

How about KW who put together perhaps the worst bullpen in baseball history.

 

Fields is this season's only bright spot. As well as Bobby.

[fathom]

Like somebody said, Connie Mack couldn't manage this team to victories.

The veterans sucked.

Injuries.

The bullpen would drive any manager to drink.

Even today, an automatic win and poor Bobby has his first bad day in a long time.

Another loss.

 

It AINT OZ'S FAULT.

How bout the veterans WHO CANT HIT (can you say Dye, AJ, Thome, Paulie, Uribe, Erstad).

How about KW who put together perhaps the worst bullpen in baseball history.

 

Fields is this season's only bright spot. As well as Bobby.

 

Here's the question I have then....when is it the manager's fault? At what point is it the manager's fault for not getting the most out of his players? We had a year and a half of great baseball, and that's been followed by a year and a half of terrible baseball. 2008 better be a make-or-break year for KW, Ozzie, etc. (which is why I think an Ozzie extension is beyond stupid).

[Vance Law]

I agree. I will not however, get into any arguments over managers and coaches. It's just such a tired, old and boring debate and there's NO tangible evidence to work which makes it that much worse. It would be nice if people would just avoid these boring debates and instead realize that some people are just not going to like a manger and some are going to love him and just let it be. There's just no way to make an airtight argument either way.

 

The distribution of blame argument is one that's filled with circular logic and assumptions which makes for some seriously boring discussion.

 

ding. ding. ding. best post yet.

 

[TheBigHurt]

People, people. Don't misinterpret me. Please point out where I ever said this whole season was Ozzie's fault. I never said that. I just said that Ozzie's bad managing was a PART of the problem, and no one can deny bad managing takes a bad toll on a team.

Edited September 7, 2007 by TheBigHurt

[Steff]

People, people. Don't misinterpret me. Please point out where I ever said this whole season was Ozzie's fault. I never said that. I just said that Ozzie's bad managing was a PART of the problem, and no one can deny bad managing takes a bad toll on a team.

 

 

Of course they can deny it. If it's their opinion that the managing isn't bad they are going to disagree with you. Agree to disagree. Very simple.

[TLAK]

Its a mathematical formula based on runs scored and runs allowed that comes up with what your expected record should be.

 

Its not quite Black Scholes theory, but it is interesing none the less.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_expectation

What makes this season look 'good' is a number of horrible, embarrasing beatings. The Sox have lost games by 16 and 13 runs, and two each at 12 and 10. On the other side they have won only one game by as much as 8. So the RA column is higher than normal for a baseball team with a similar record scoring a similar amount of runs. Its just a little statistical blip. This season it's more a measure of a poor middle relief corps than a good manager.

 

[SkokieSox]

Here's the question I have then....when is it the manager's fault? At what point is it the manager's fault for not getting the most out of his players? We had a year and a half of great baseball, and that's been followed by a year and a half of terrible baseball. 2008 better be a make-or-break year for KW, Ozzie, etc. (which is why I think an Ozzie extension is beyond stupid).

 

Did Ozzie continuously run this team out of innings? Did he put his players in position to get hurt? Did he continuously mishandle the pitching staff? No - when the teams performance is hindered by strategy, and not injuries and poor execution, then I think its fair to blame Ozzie.

[29andPoplar]

What is a generalization? "Ozzie is an atrocious manager who makes a LOT of mistakes" is NOT a generalization. it's a fact. YES, Ozzie does have limited talent, but isn't a majority of this "talent" still here from the 2005 team?

 

So you're saying that if Ozzie leaves Jose Contreras in for 8 innings until he gives up, I think 3-5 runs in a single inning, and puts the shift on a guy batting .198, and the guy bunts it down the line foul, and then the shift stays put (that was such a poorly managed game it's ridiculous)... this is all because the PLAYERS lack talent and ability? RIIIIIIGHT.

 

LOL. I AM a casual fan, but I guess that makes me completely ignorant and means that I never know anything? That if I see obviously horrible management that I don't know it? That was a low blow and you know it. Absolutely irrelevant. That single-handedly takes away any substance you actually have in the argument.

I find your post falsely reasonable. I know damn well what I'm talking about. Seriously, if you CLAIM to watch a lot of games and need examples of Ozzie's bad management, you simply aren't paying attention, know absolutely nothing about baseball (again, coming from me that's pathetic), are in complete and utter denial, or are an Ozzie fanboy. Or a combination of these.

 

I have come to the conclusion that you can't tell the difference between opinion and fact. You may want to look it up. Saying "ozzie is an atrocious manager who makes a LOT of mistakes" would be an opinion, not a fact. Until you learn the difference, there is not much reason to point things out to you because you can't understand the basics.

 

And that is not a low blow, it's simply pointing out you don't know the difference. Start with learning that, and then maybe you can rant about how you know damn well what you're talking about.

 

Actually, someone like you suggesting I may know nothing about baseball is something I'll take as a compliment, but that's another discussion for another day. But being the casual fan you are, maybe keep reading other people's rants to form your opinions and get your examples so you can "damn well know what you're talking about".