Floyd's arm beginning to convert some believers

[Chisoxfn]

How can people say that a guy whose arm lags in the stretch at the major league level has a great arm? And he throws 91-93 most the time, 87-89 from the stretch, with a good curveball, no changeup, lousy slider. But what, exactly, makes him a great arm? 91-93 and no ability to pitch from the stretch. Yeah.

 

I, for one, am happy that Ozzie doesn't buy it yet.

Jenks/Vazquez/Thornton/MacDougall all have better arms.

[striker]

Guillen has high expectation for Floyd, even though the rest of team has a 4.90 era. Their ignorance is driving me nuts.

[Gregory Pratt]

Yep, that's exactly what we've said all along. Floyd is great, and with Fields, Richar, Gonzalez, and Owens, the Sox will be back on top in no time. :rolly

 

Get real.

 

I think we've got realer assessments of Floyd and Owens, in particular, than those who are spouting this "He's better!" nonsense, or who talk about how he's got hot stuff in his arm.

[29andPoplar]

For me the Gavin Floyd sucks-no he doesn't back and forth is tiresome but I do realize it is something to talk about.

 

Several things to consider.

 

Williams miscalculated badly on Floyd's ability to contribute in 2007 and I think everyone can agree on that. If Williams ego was so huge and he wouldn't back off his judgement on Floyd, Floyd would've been kept on the roster in April. Instead he got sent down, which is where he should have been.

 

Now Floyd is showing flashes and they are being simultaneously praised and dismissed, not only by internet message board posters but the team's manager. To me it is better he is showing flashes than getting rocked vs. Detroit and Cleveland, despite lineups and weather conditions and so on. That happens to all pitchers during the course of a season.

 

Who is to say he isn't being given a shot because he will be available in trade this winter? Just saying. There are probably several lower level teams who have the time and patience to carry Gavin Floyd on their roster, teams who have other assets which would appeal to the White Sox.

 

Just because he is pitching in September doesn't necessarily mean they are penciling him in to the 2008 rotation.

 

It seems I am always saying there may be more going on behind the scenes, there may be more than meets the eye. I will wait and see on this, just like playing wait and see on the Buehrle extension.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think we've got realer assessments of Floyd and Owens, in particular, than those who are spouting this "He's better!" nonsense, or who talk about how he's got hot stuff in his arm.

realer? That's the whole point. There is no "real" in assessing talent, other than the results of the players' actions. No one has a "realer" assessment than anyone else - they have a different one. And because baseball is so dynamic, and because some players take so long to develop, some of us are willing to give certain younger players a chance to show what they can do (especially when the season is basically a loss anyway). Others, apparently, would rather make a judgement once about a player early in their development, and insist on the idea that no player ever changes or improves.

 

[Balta1701]

Who is to say he isn't being given a shot because he will be available in trade this winter? Just saying. There are probably several lower level teams who have the time and patience to carry Gavin Floyd on their roster, teams who have other assets which would appeal to the White Sox.

I will raise my hand and be the one to say that Floyd is not being given a shot as trade-bait.

 

I will give a couple reasons for this. First and foremost...the entire reason for acquiring a Gavin Floyd right now would be that you hope he's on the verge of turning it around...and therefore you can get him at a much lower price than his performance would justify. You hope he's a bargain. In other words, you think you can get him for maybe the same sort of price the Sox got for Iguchi or something like that. No team right now is going to give up a high quality player that the White Sox would want for Gavin Floyd alone.

 

And second...there is a non-trivial chance that Floyd's price will drop precipitously next spring...because he is out of options. If he does not make the White Sox 25 man roster, or seems like he won't, the Sox will be left with the choice of dumping him onto whatever team will give us ANYTHING for him or letting him walk via the waiver wire. In other words, no reasonable team will give up anything of value for him right now because they'd expect that if the Sox weren't putting him in their short term plans, the price for him will drop evne more in the near future.

[Balta1701]

realer? That's the whole point. There is no "real" in assessing talent, other than the results of the players' actions. No one has a "realer" assessment than anyone else - they have a different one. And because baseball is so dynamic, and because some players take so long to develop, some of us are willing to give certain younger players a chance to show what they can do (especially when the season is basically a loss anyway). Others, apparently, would rather make a judgement once about a player early in their development, and insist on the idea that no player ever changes or improves.

The problem of course is that there will be times that both of those groups will be 100% correct. There will be many, many, many players who simply don't ever develop into what they originally were thought to be. That's why even 1st round picks have such a high failure rate.

 

No matter what comparison anyone tries to come up with...it's going to be right sometimes and wrong other times. If this game were easy to figure out, then the Yankees would win the series every year.

 

So, all I see that teams can do is try to set themselves up as well as humanly possible. We can't simply go out and spend $150 million next offseason and add in ARod, Hunter, Linebrink, and trade for Johan, no matter how much we want. So we sort of have to pick and choose which holes we're going to try to fill with the money we have, and we're going to just have to hope for the best from our other guys...just as almost every team in baseball must do.

[Yossarian]

Others, apparently, would rather make a judgement once about a player early in their development, and insist on the idea that no player ever changes or improves.

Of course some players take a little (or maybe even a lot) longer to develop. Still, you can't ignore the results to date. Based on that, there's no reason to get overly excited about any 2007 Sox rookie. KW really has his work cut out for him this off season. Even if he's at the top of his game, we're probably looking at several seasons more of bad baseball on the south side.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

The problem of course is that there will be times that both of those groups will be 100% correct. There will be many, many, many players who simply don't ever develop into what they originally were thought to be. That's why even 1st round picks have such a high failure rate.

 

No matter what comparison anyone tries to come up with...it's going to be right sometimes and wrong other times. If this game were easy to figure out, then the Yankees would win the series every year.

 

So, all I see that teams can do is try to set themselves up as well as humanly possible. We can't simply go out and spend $150 million next offseason and add in ARod, Hunter, Linebrink, and trade for Johan, no matter how much we want. So we sort of have to pick and choose which holes we're going to try to fill with the money we have, and we're going to just have to hope for the best from our other guys...just as almost every team in baseball must do.

Yes, exactly. Of course some players will and some will not develop. Which is why you make sure you get a good look at your own in-house talent whenever possible.

 

[RockRaines]

We need to hope Gavin figures it out because we need to clear payroll to upgrade and invigorate this offense. Two main things need to happen for us to do that.

 

1. We need to trade one of our proven starters to clear payroll and hopefully bring back something of value

2. We need a minimum salary player to step up and take a spot in the rotation.

[Gregory Pratt]

Of course some players take a little (or maybe even a lot) longer to develop. Still, you can't ignore the results to date. Based on that, there's no reason to get overly excited about any 2007 Sox rookie. KW really has his work cut out for him this off season. Even if he's at the top of his game, we're probably looking at several seasons more of bad baseball on the south side.

 

We are only a player or two away, my friend. the bullpen will be good next year because that's how relievers work (good/bad), the pitchers will get better and the offense will go back to the back of the baseball card.

 

Yeees!

[NorthSideSox72]

Of course some players take a little (or maybe even a lot) longer to develop. Still, you can't ignore the results to date. Based on that, there's no reason to get overly excited about any 2007 Sox rookie. KW really has his work cut out for him this off season. Even if he's at the top of his game, we're probably looking at several seasons more of bad baseball on the south side.

All makes sense, except the last sentence, which one cannot possibly know until the dust settles after this offseason.

 

[RockRaines]

We are only a player or two away, my friend. the bullpen will be good next year because that's how relievers work (good/bad), the pitchers will get better and the offense will go back to the back of the baseball card.

 

Yeees!

Well. Taking the horribly unpredictable methods of statistics. There is a huge chance that our star players wont play like 2007's outliers. If you would like to, I would bet you at least one cubs/sox pair of tickets that we score more runs next year than we did this year.

[CanOfCorn]

All makes sense, except the last sentence, which one cannot possibly know until the dust settles after this offseason.

 

I disagree...the rookies are playing in near stress-free situation. There's no pennant race. There's no Wild Card berth. It's just play the string the best you can. All of which, if you ask me, will help these players next ST. they can relax. They have seen the best in the division...and they can just play. Call me an optimist (no really, it's ok), but I think the likes of Richar, Fields, Floyd, Danks and maybe even Owens will be much better next year.

[Gregory Pratt]

Well. Taking the horribly unpredictable methods of statistics. There is a huge chance that our star players wont play like 2007's outliers. If you would like to, I would bet you at least one cubs/sox pair of tickets that we score more runs next year than we did this year.

 

I wouldn't make that bet just yet but I'd definitely wager against the Sox offense being anything resembling good next year. I'd bet against the Sox being a top half offensive team next year, if they bring back 7 of our nine starters, or Crede.

[29andPoplar]

I will raise my hand and be the one to say that Floyd is not being given a shot as trade-bait.

 

I will give a couple reasons for this. First and foremost...the entire reason for acquiring a Gavin Floyd right now would be that you hope he's on the verge of turning it around...and therefore you can get him at a much lower price than his performance would justify. You hope he's a bargain. In other words, you think you can get him for maybe the same sort of price the Sox got for Iguchi or something like that. No team right now is going to give up a high quality player that the White Sox would want for Gavin Floyd alone.

 

And second...there is a non-trivial chance that Floyd's price will drop precipitously next spring...because he is out of options. If he does not make the White Sox 25 man roster, or seems like he won't, the Sox will be left with the choice of dumping him onto whatever team will give us ANYTHING for him or letting him walk via the waiver wire. In other words, no reasonable team will give up anything of value for him right now because they'd expect that if the Sox weren't putting him in their short term plans, the price for him will drop evne more in the near future.

 

Well you have very good points but the flip side is this, everyone wants pitching and wants it badly. Believe me when I say there are always tons of scouts and GM's looking for a pitcher who is ready to turn the corner and are willing to give up a player of their own who might not fit their plans.

 

It all depends how you define high quality player, in terms of what the Sox might get for Floyd, assuming they want to trade him. Could you get, let's just say, a young athletic OF from the Pirates who could play CF? I believe you could.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I disagree...the rookies are playing in near stress-free situation. There's no pennant race. There's no Wild Card berth. It's just play the string the best you can. All of which, if you ask me, will help these players next ST. they can relax. They have seen the best in the division...and they can just play. Call me an optimist (no really, it's ok), but I think the likes of Richar, Fields, Floyd, Danks and maybe even Owens will be much better next year.

I'm not sure how this is disagreeing with me. I was just saying you can't know for sure we'd suck - as another poster suggested. In fact I think you just agreed with me.

 

[RockRaines]

I wouldn't make that bet just yet but I'd definitely wager against the Sox offense being anything resembling good next year. I'd bet against the Sox being a top half offensive team next year, if they bring back 7 of our nine starters, or Crede.

So we agree that they will score more runs next season than they did this season?

[Gregory Pratt]

So we agree that they will score more runs next season than they did this season?

 

I think that's very possible but I don't think that's saying much.

 

you're really going on a limb, you know?

 

I would bet that we're still bad next year.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[RockRaines]

I think that's very possible but I don't think that's saying much.

 

you're really going on a limb, you know?

 

I would bet that we're still bad next year.

Well. You were very confident that our offense will not improve next season. I am saying that they will. All i am asking is that you stand by your claim.

 

This team is not as bad as they played this year, nor are all the players. We certainly have huge holes to plug. But if they play this season 10 times, this just may have well been the worst case scenario.

[Gregory Pratt]

Well. You were very confident that our offense will not improve next season. I am saying that they will. All i am asking is that you stand by your claim.

 

This team is not as bad as they played this year, nor are all the players. We certainly have huge holes to plug. But if they play this season 10 times, this just may have well been the worst case scenario.

 

Many of the players are just as bad as they've played this year. And if you played this season ten times, you might find this season could get worse.

 

This is a terrible team to start building off of except maybe pitching but even that's looking iffy to me.

[NorthSideSox72]

Many of the players are just as bad as they've played this year. And if you played this season ten times, you might find this season could get worse.

 

This is a terrible team to start building off of except maybe pitching but even that's looking iffy to me.

So Thome, Dye, Konerko, AJP... all terrible players, huh? Not having a bad year, just bad players?

 

[Yossarian]

I was just saying you can't know for sure we'd suck - as another poster suggested.

If that's me you're talking about, I don't know much of anything for sure. I for sure didn't know this was going to be a train wreck of a season. I expected 87 or so wins. Bases on what I've seen this year, being optimistic about what KW can do in the off season, I'd say even .500 ball in 08 would be a stretch. That's what my brain, such as it is tells me. I'm guaranteeing nothing. Baseball is always full of surprises.

[Gregory Pratt]

So Thome, Dye, Konerko, AJP... all terrible players, huh? Not having a bad year, just bad players?

 

When did I say that?

 

This is a terrible team to start building off of except maybe pitching but even that's looking iffy to me.

 

I will add, consistent with that quote, that old man Thome, veteran(read:"old, worn and torn") catcher AJ Pierzynski, Konerko (the hipster whose power I see going down a tad and whose speed will remain the same...) and Dye (who might be electric, might be bad, might be middle -- won't be MVP-like ever again) is a terrible base to build from. It's just not a solid core of players anymore. It's one-dimensional, injury prone in two cases and not that good, overall. (Is Konerko a top ten first baseman? Sure. Bottom top ten. Dye top ten? Maybe. AJ? Bottom top ten.) And these are our stars?

 

Not a good team to build off of. No youth, energy or versatility. Just the same old s***.

 

Nowhere did I say that those players are bad players, though, but why would that matter?

Edited September 11, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[Dick Allen]

So Thome, Dye, Konerko, AJP... all terrible players, huh? Not having a bad year, just bad players?

The problem is even when these guys put up great numbers, and I really don't know how you could expect bigger numbers collectively than what these guys provided in 2006, it wasn't nearly good enough. The pitching will be key. Somehow KW is going to have to fix the mess he has while peeling off a Garland or Vazquez. Its going to be difficult, because the Sox don't have an organization filled with innings eaters.