The Last Roster Spot

[santo=dorf]

You can't bench Thome vs every Lefty, because he would only end up with 300 ABs. However, I wouldn't mind seeing him replaced every now and then vs Lefties. He has a .300 point OPS drop from RHP to LHP. That is huge.

Wrong. The righty/left spilt is about 3:2, not an even 1:1.

[ballyb11]

It surprises me to see how many people think Thome should be benched vs. lefties... maybe once in a while, but Thome is NOT a platoon player. Sure, he's better vs. righties, but he has one of the best eye's in the league, can draw walks, and at any moment, vs. any pitcher, he can go yard. And you don't bench especially when he is getting hot, as evident of his 4 or 5(?) homers and 10+ rbi's in the least week and a half of spring training games.

 

But, he shouldn't bat 3rd vs. lefties. Swisher should bat 3rd with Thome 5th...

 

Here are the FACTS re. Thome vs. LHP his last 3 full, healthy seasons.

 

'04 .239/.324/.479 OPS .803 in 213 PA

'06 .236/.354/.361 OPS .715 in 229 PA

'07 .196/.314/.350 OPS .663 in 169 PA

 

I'm a Thome fan, but the reality is he's PATHETIC against LHP and GETTING WORSE. And his playing against lefties hurts the team. The Sox have many alternatives to Thome this year.

 

 

 

[jackie hayes]

Wrong. The righty/left spilt is about 3:2, not an even 1:1.

I think he's looking at Thome's 2007 stats, when he had (iirc) 290-something abs vs rhp. He's not assuming a 1:1 ratio between rhp and lhp, it's just that Thome will miss some time anyway with interleague, assorted small injuries. 500 abs is about a full season for him.

[ScottyDo]

If Masset isn't on the roster, we have NO ONE in the bullpen capable of throwing multiple innings. That is not okay no matter how many crazy message board scenarios we come up with to fix that issue using Ehren. Wasserman is better, but Masset is the only right choice.

 

Now does it suck that we don't have a GOOD long reliever? Sure. But Wasserman, who doesn't fit that role, is not a realistic option.

 

I suppose we could have Haeger up again but we already saw how that worked out. Broadway, maybe a little better, but I think it's better if we just leave him a starter and let him get his innings in in AAA.

 

So yeah, no option other than Masset. Sorry.

[RME JICO]

Wrong. The righty/left spilt is about 3:2, not an even 1:1.

What?

 

His last 3 full seasons vs RHP:

 

2004 - 320 ABs

2006 - 299 ABs

2007 - 289 ABs

 

So if he only bats against RHP, he would be limited to about 300 ABs. Where am I wrong? I could've said 302.6666667 but I rounded down.

Edited March 30, 2008 by RME JICO

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, I understand that Masset was out of options. But MacDougal wasn't. And it sucks that the bullpen has 2 guys in it that seem clearly to me to have a much lower chance of success than Wassermann. Bad move, IMO.

 

Its unlikely the bullpen will be static all year though, so he'll probably be back up.

 

[BearSox]

There really is no way to justify it. It just comes down to Williams not being able admit "his people" were dead wrong about Nick, and now arguably the Sox 2nd best bullpen arm from last year has to wait for Nick to burn out before he can get his chance again.

 

Not that Williams gives 2 s***s about what I think, but I would have more respect for Williams if he showed that he cares about whats best for the team, instead of trying to show everyone he wasn't wrong about Masset.

Hey now, this guy was "a notch below Jenks on the Radar gun!"

 

On a side note, I have no problem with Mac being on the team. He has arguably the best stuff out of all our relievers, and the upside is huge with him.

[ScottyDo]

There really is no way to justify it. It just comes down to Williams not being able admit "his people" were dead wrong about Nick, and now arguably the Sox 2nd best bullpen arm from last year has to wait for Nick to burn out before he can get his chance again.

 

Not that Williams gives 2 s***s about what I think, but I would have more respect for Williams if he showed that he cares about whats best for the team, instead of trying to show everyone he wasn't wrong about Masset.

 

No way to justify it? Let's say tomorrow we have an opening day like last year's where our SP goes 1 1/3 innings and gives up 7...given a bullpen with Wasserman instead of Masset, who do you go with? Do you literally play everyone in the bullpen? Ruin your bullpen for the better part of a week? Yes, based on last year, Wasserman is a better pitcher. Give me one inning and I want him over Masset any time. But he's not capable of long relief. It's just that simple. You wouldn't play Konerko at second base because he's incapable of playing there, so why is everyone arguing that Wasserman be a long guy?

 

If you want to argue the merits of Wasserman over MacDougal, that's fine. Or if you want to be mad that Kenny didn't set us up with a better long reliever, that's also fine. I just don't see how there's any argument over whether or not we need someone who can pitch 3 or 4 innings in our pen. We do. We just do.

[elrockinMT]

Massett gets the job becasue he is out of options?! Well, maybe he can turn it around, but hopefully not at ther expense of us losing ground on the Tigers and Indians.

Edited March 30, 2008 by elrockinMT

[ScottyDo]

I see, so you want Masset on team because he pitch in games when the Sox are getting blown out, over Wasserman, who you yourself will provide the Sox with more effective innings, and is the better overall pitcher. What you are saying is the Sox need to carry a bad pitcher because if Buehrle gives up 7 in an 1.2 IP, Masset is the only one that can pitch those innings.

 

Basically, your logic is Masset's 3 s***ty innings>>Wasserman's one good inning? Unreal.

 

In the case that our pitcher is knocked out of the game early enough that our bullpen cannot stretch from the early inning to the end of the game, then yes. I propose that the ability to go four innings and save the rest of the bullpen for later in the week is better than the ability to go one scoreless inning and make us use every reliever we have. Long relievers are in your bullpen to mop up and save the rest of the pen for later games that we can actually win or are close. Every team has one. They have one for a reason. Ehren Wasserman is not one. Masset is one. Masset needs to be on the team, I'm sorry.

 

Regardless, you haven't answered the question of what you'd do if our starter got knocked out in the second inning and we had Wasserman instead of Masset. Are you really saying you'd go Buehrle->Wasserman->MacDougal->Thornton->Linebrink->Dotel->Jenks? That's literally what you'd have to do to bridge the second inning and the ninth. That's wholly and entirely reckless, for reasons I shouldn't have to enumerate.

 

So yes, the ability to go four crappy innings, IN THIS CASE given the structure of our bullpen, is more valuable than the ability to go one scoreless inning.

[ScottyDo]

Thats not my job, it's Williams and Guillen job, something they clearly screwed up on. This didn't sneak up on them. I don't know if they expected Nick to come out strong in Spring Training, but given his AAA numbers, along with his career MLB numbers, there was NO REASON to expect him to be able to handle regular work at the MLB level. Ozzie in the last day has basically come out and said Nick is here solely for the reason of the organization not wanting to lose him, not because of the numbers he put up, which pale in comparison to Wass. They could, and should have seen this coming in November. Stretch out Wass over the off-season, or, if they are that concerned about having a true "mop-up" guy as you claim they should be, go out and get someone that can put up an ERA under 7.

 

It's the exact same situation as Owens. There are better players currently on the roster, but because he is fast, he is given a free ride because "the team needs it more." Bulls***. Assemble a team, and put the best players on the field.

 

The only way to justify this move is Williams and the staff being completely irresponsible this off-season, and a solid pitcher like Wasserman has to waste effective innings in Charlotte, while Nick can throw his 5 innings a week in blow outs, when we really need him the most.

 

You're more concerned about garbage innings than effective, important innings in the 6th-7th. It seems as if the Sox are as well. A nice winning attitude.

 

Okay then, your argument is that KW and Ozzie screwed the pooch by not landing a better long guy. I agree wholeheartedly. Our long guy likely sucks.

 

But given the choices we currently have for the last roster spot, I don't see how you could pick Wasserman and say "Nah, this team just doesn't need a long reliever".

[Dick Allen]

Thats not my job, it's Williams and Guillen job, something they clearly screwed up on.

 

Now wait a minute. You are hypocritical. You lambast anyone who says Floyd sucks even though they are the same age, with approximately the same career ERAs, the same spring training results, and Floyd has 4 times the innings. Lets put things into perspective here. They both suck, and suck really bad. At least Masset's innings will be garbage innings, pitching in games whether he gives up 0 runs or 10 the Sox will probably lose, because except for injury he's going in when the starter gets bombed. Floyd pitches every 5th day, and his numbers are the same. That's beyond scary.

Edited March 31, 2008 by knightni

[BearSox]

Regardless, you haven't answered the question of what you'd do if our starter got knocked out in the second inning and we had Wasserman instead of Masset. Are you really saying you'd go Buehrle->Wasserman->MacDougal->Thornton->Linebrink->Dotel->Jenks?

 

If all of Logan, Wasserman, MacDougal, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, and Jenks can't pitch more then 1 inning, then they shouldn't be on an mlb roster. Logan can easily give 2, I'm sure Wasserman can go 2, and Thornton and Jenks are both former starters and can give at least 2 each. Thornton probably could go 3 easy. Linebring could go 2. Dotel and Mac, better not risk it.

 

So, lets say Buehrle gets knocked out after the second. Put Was in there for 2. Then put Logan in for 2. We got ourselves to the 7th Then Thornton/Linebrink can get you 2 and/or finish the game, depending on the score (and it's probably not good for us if Buehrle gets knocked out after 2), and if they can finish or we have the lead, Dotel/MacDougal/Jenks could close it out.

 

It's not an ideal sitaution, but there is no rule that a relief pitcher can't go more then 1 inning if they aren't a "long man."

[nitetrain8601]

If all of Logan, Wasserman, MacDougal, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, and Jenks can't pitch more then 1 inning, then they shouldn't be on an mlb roster. Logan can easily give 2, I'm sure Wasserman can go 2, and Thornton and Jenks are both former starters and can give at least 2 each. Thornton probably could go 3 easy. Linebring could go 2. Dotel and Mac, better not risk it.

 

So, lets say Buehrle gets knocked out after the second. Put Was in there for 2. Then put Logan in for 2. We got ourselves to the 7th Then Thornton/Linebrink can get you 2 and/or finish the game, depending on the score (and it's probably not good for us if Buehrle gets knocked out after 2), and if they can finish or we have the lead, Dotel/MacDougal/Jenks could close it out.

 

It's not an ideal sitaution, but there is no rule that a relief pitcher can't go more then 1 inning if they aren't a "long man."

 

And the next day if Vazquez or perhaps Danks leave in 2 innings? You have half your bullpen gone, so you have to hope for a great game the next day.

[wcw2323]

If Masset isn't on the roster, we have NO ONE in the bullpen capable of throwing multiple innings. That is not okay no matter how many crazy message board scenarios we come up with to fix that issue using Ehren. Wasserman is better, but Masset is the only right choice.

 

Now does it suck that we don't have a GOOD long reliever? Sure. But Wasserman, who doesn't fit that role, is not a realistic option.

 

I suppose we could have Haeger up again but we already saw how that worked out. Broadway, maybe a little better, but I think it's better if we just leave him a starter and let him get his innings in in AAA.

 

So yeah, no option other than Masset. Sorry.

I suppose we could have Haeger up again but we already saw how that worked out. Broadway, maybe a little better, but I think it's better if we just leave him a starter and let him get his innings in in AAA.

Check out the career stats comparing Haeger to Masset...Haeger has a 4.85 ERA vs. Masset's 6.56. Haeger had an ERA of 2.25 the second half of 2007 in Charlotte. This isn't about the best fit for the role. It's about options...all business!

[witesoxfan]

Would it really be impossible to have a longman as the 26th man and just use creative roster management to get said player on the roster?

 

I mean burn through the pen one day if have to, send down Wasserman/MacDougal, and then call up Broadway/Haeger/Carrasco/Ohka/Russell/Sisco/whoever the Sox have in AAA? You don't have to use them if the opportunity doesn't present itself, but you have the option just in case it does.

 

I mean, say Floyd gets torched for 8 runs in 3 innings. You use Wasserman for 2, Thornton for 2, MacDougal for 1, and Logan/Linebrink for 1. Then after the game, you send Wasserman down, call up said s***ty AAA pitcher, and hope that Buehrle/Vazquez/whoever is next goes 7-8 innings and you can just use Dotel and/or Jenks the next day. If they don't and they get torched, bring in said s***ty pitcher. When everyone in the bullpen is rested enough, send said s***ty pitcher down again.

 

You probably wouldn't want to make that a habit, but it's not to say it's an impossible scenario.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

Now, there's only 2 guys that the Sox should never give the ball to: the M & M boys. Both should be released.

[kwolf68]

 

 

Wasserman has done everything he could to make the team. Masset stinks...he doesn't belong on our opening day roster, he hasn't earned CRAP. The Sox are doling out lineup and roster decisions based on options/salaries/god knows what....it's a joke.

[RockRaines]

value of a long reliever anyone?

[ScottyDo]

Now, I'm not trying to say I'm Nostradamus but...

 

anybody feel like jumping on my bandwagon?

 

EDIT: For the record, I really didn't think Buehrle would blow it today. I'm just trying to say that this is EXACTLY the situation I was talking about previously.

Edited March 31, 2008 by ScottyDo

[southsider2k5]

Would it really be impossible to have a longman as the 26th man and just use creative roster management to get said player on the roster?

 

I mean burn through the pen one day if have to, send down Wasserman/MacDougal, and then call up Broadway/Haeger/Carrasco/Ohka/Russell/Sisco/whoever the Sox have in AAA? You don't have to use them if the opportunity doesn't present itself, but you have the option just in case it does.

 

I mean, say Floyd gets torched for 8 runs in 3 innings. You use Wasserman for 2, Thornton for 2, MacDougal for 1, and Logan/Linebrink for 1. Then after the game, you send Wasserman down, call up said s***ty AAA pitcher, and hope that Buehrle/Vazquez/whoever is next goes 7-8 innings and you can just use Dotel and/or Jenks the next day. If they don't and they get torched, bring in said s***ty pitcher. When everyone in the bullpen is rested enough, send said s***ty pitcher down again.

 

You probably wouldn't want to make that a habit, but it's not to say it's an impossible scenario.

 

Any pitcher you send down can't be recalled for 10 days, correct? You also start burning options in that scenario as well.

[lostfan]

No way to justify it? Let's say tomorrow we have an opening day like last year's where our SP goes 1 1/3 innings and gives up 7...given a bullpen with Wasserman instead of Masset, who do you go with? Do you literally play everyone in the bullpen? Ruin your bullpen for the better part of a week? Yes, based on last year, Wasserman is a better pitcher. Give me one inning and I want him over Masset any time. But he's not capable of long relief. It's just that simple. You wouldn't play Konerko at second base because he's incapable of playing there, so why is everyone arguing that Wasserman be a long guy?

 

If you want to argue the merits of Wasserman over MacDougal, that's fine. Or if you want to be mad that Kenny didn't set us up with a better long reliever, that's also fine. I just don't see how there's any argument over whether or not we need someone who can pitch 3 or 4 innings in our pen. We do. We just do.

Holy s*** that is just plain eerie, I didn't read this until just now. lol

[RME JICO]

And around April 7th, they will rather have a guy in the lineup that can run fast over a talented guy like Quentin. We will also start Thome on Monday who is what 0-11 with 7k's life time against CC. Some of these decisions are head scratchers.

Now that is funny. What are the odds that Thome goes yard twice against CC?

 

No way to justify it? Let's say tomorrow we have an opening day like last year's where our SP goes 1 1/3 innings and gives up 7...given a bullpen with Wasserman instead of Masset, who do you go with? Do you literally play everyone in the bullpen? Ruin your bullpen for the better part of a week? Yes, based on last year, Wasserman is a better pitcher. Give me one inning and I want him over Masset any time. But he's not capable of long relief. It's just that simple. You wouldn't play Konerko at second base because he's incapable of playing there, so why is everyone arguing that Wasserman be a long guy?

[lostfan]

I do think all the hand-wringing about Thome batting 3rd vs. CC was completely justified though.

[RME JICO]

I do think all the hand-wringing about Thome batting 3rd vs. CC was completely justified though.

Has Thome changed anything against LHP this year?

 

He seems much better vs LHP (including ST). Of the 6 HRs he hit in ST, I know a couple were vs LHP. Now he has two more. Yet going into this season he only hit a HR against LHP every 23 AB's and only 6 all last year vs LHP.