Vazquez has 1 bad month, and people are ready to throw him off the bus.

 

More along the lines of: "Vazquez has 1 good year, and people are ready to annoint him an ace."

 

GMAB with this stuff. Career 4.29 ERA, working on his 4th below average season in the last 5 years, and you're trying to tell me it's 1 bad month? Please. What you see is what you get. People should realize last year was the exception, not the norm. It just goes to show that guys with good stuff will always get the benefit of the doubt.

 

Buehrle wasn't very good in the 1st 2 months too FWIW, and he's come around very nicely since.

 

Buehrle's pretty much had 1 bad season in his career. Bad comparison.

Edited July 1, 200817 yr by Frankensteiner

Yes, Freddy's 4.09 career ERA BEFORE he was hurt is clearly a massive upgrade over Vasquez.

 

Both guys have been talented starters that can be wildly inconsistent. The difference is one clearly still has the stuff that makes him elite at times while the other doesn't. If Freddy had anything CLOSE to his old stuff he'd be signed already for a fair amount of money.

I don't know if Freddy has anything left in the tank yet, but when he was healthy he was always a better big game pitcher than Javy. I'd take a healthy Garcia over a healthy Vazquez in a playoff or WS game every time.

 

That doesn't mean I'd take him over Javy now, but I'd hope the Sox will at least check him out.

I think there are several possibilities. Either you can just shut Danks down and put him on the DL for a couple weeks just to keep him fresh (Just call it "Tightness"), you can just have him skip a couple starts (This is what Detroit did with Verlander in 06) or you can basically give him September off when the rosters expand and Broadway and Loaiza come back up.

 

Again, the 160 innings thing is just a rule of thumb, some pitchers are able to add more than 30 innings in a year and survive without injury, but it just seems to be asking for so much trouble (See: Gallardo) that I really hope they don't push him too far beyond that.

 

Gallardo tore his ACL

 

And Vazquez is far and away a superior pitcher to Garcia, but if you didn't expect that from me, you don't know me.

Gallardo tore his ACL

 

And Vazquez is far and away a superior pitcher to Garcia, but if you didn't expect that from me, you don't know me.

Here's the link to the story i'm talking about.

Yes, Freddy's 4.09 career ERA BEFORE he was hurt is clearly a massive upgrade over Vasquez.

 

Both guys have been talented starters that can be wildly inconsistent. The difference is one clearly still has the stuff that makes him elite at times while the other doesn't. If Freddy had anything CLOSE to his old stuff he'd be signed already for a fair amount of money.

 

Ya think? Not like the guy's holding a public workout so teams can, you know, see if he has his old stuff... But whatever... Any team signing Garcia is doing so for September/October and there's certainly going to be a waiting period before Freddy's ready to pitch (if he'll be ready at all). Still, there's nothing prohibiting the Sox from looking.

 

No one said an injured Freddy was a "massive" upgrade over Vazquez and no one doubts Vazquez currently has superior stuff. And for the 80th billionth time, I mentioned being skeptical of Garcia's health from the start.

 

However, Vazquez in the playoffs is going to be a disaster, imo. Vazquez in September is probably going to be a disaster as well.

 

BTW, isn't this "no way he's healthy" stuff the same thing I heard about Colon when teams were going to work him out. Granted, he's injured again, but it had nothing to do with his arm, just his girth. It's pretty stupid to dismiss signing Garcia before even seeing him pitch or reading any reports of his workout.

 

Oh, and I'd take Freddy's 4.09 career ERA over Vazquez's Montreal-NL-inflated career 4.29 ERA any day of the week.

Oh, and I'd take Freddy's 4.09 career ERA over Vazquez's Montreal-NL-inflated career 4.29 ERA any day of the week.

 

Yeah I highly doubt Freddy's a 4.09 pitcher anymore. Maybe 5.09. You go right ahead and take Freddy.

Vazquez in September is probably going to be a disaster as well.

 

Oh, and I'd take Freddy's 4.09 career ERA over Vazquez's Montreal-NL-inflated career 4.29 ERA any day of the week.

 

Hmm... Javy had a 3.07 ERA last September... a 3.74 season ERA.. and a 3.57 ERA at the Cell

 

And if you look at Javy's career splits, September is his best month with a 3.66 career ERA

 

So what's the concern about his September numbers or his ERA outside of Montreal?

 

 

 

 

Hmm... Javy had a 3.07 ERA last September... a 3.74 season ERA.. and a 3.57 ERA at the Cell

 

And if you look at Javy's career splits, September is his best month with a 3.66 career ERA

 

So what's the concern about his September numbers or his ERA outside of Montreal?

Javy has generally been on non contenders. Teams that play against half a line-up of AAA call ups in September. 2004 is the only time he was on a playoff team and his September ERA was over 6.00. In no way do I think Garcia is better now than Vazquez, but Freddy has put up big numbers when it mattered. If he happened to be 100% healthy, there is no way Garcia isn't better than Vazquez. Freddy just will never be that way again IMO, but I'm sure the White Sox are keeping close tabs and I think unless someone offers him good money, he will eventually sign with the Sox.

Yeah I highly doubt Freddy's a 4.09 pitcher anymore. Maybe 5.09. You go right ahead and take Freddy.

 

Christ...

 

I am not disputing that, merely stating Freddy's had a better career than Vazquez.

Javy has generally been on non contenders. Teams that play against half a line-up of AAA call ups in September. 2004 is the only time he was on a playoff team and his September ERA was over 6.00. In no way do I think Garcia is better now than Vazquez, but Freddy has put up big numbers when it mattered. If he happened to be 100% healthy, there is no way Garcia isn't better than Vazquez. Freddy just will never be that way again IMO, but I'm sure the White Sox are keeping close tabs and I think unless someone offers him good money, he will eventually sign with the Sox.

 

I think that's the perfect summary of my thoughts as well.

 

This is from the Detroit Free Press:

 

 

 

Obviously there's a huge question mark regarding Garcia's health. But I at least hope we attend this workout. I am worried about Floyd and Danks in September. I mean Floyd's already gone well over his career high in ML innings and we're only in July.

 

In addittion, I would have to question your sanity if you would rather have Vazquez start a playoff game for you than a healthy(ish) Garcia.

 

I do have my doubts about his health so I'm not going to get excited untill I hear he can consistently throw 91-93 at this workout.

Well. That takes the cake. It's been done. I don't think I've read a less accurate post on Soxtalk. There's a lot of competition, but you, my friend, are the clear cut winner.

I'd take Freddy on the road, Javy at home and feel good about either. There have been a lot of pitchers come through Chicago and I'd rate both those guys pretty high for competitiveness.

Here's the link to the story i'm talking about.

wite's still right, though, Gallardo is not a good example. It's not even a disagreement on the principle, just saying, a freak injury like that obviously has nothing to do with his workload.

I brought this topic up about a month ago, and got ripped. About the same reaction now.

 

I'm sure we'll check him out. It would be just foolish not to.

 

But beyond that it's all speculation. None of us has any idea if he's got anything at this point. And, if he's not throwing until the end of July, what kind of time does that allow for him to get ready? He'd certainly need some AAA time.

 

So, check him out and go from there. We'll know more where we stand. We'll know if we have to bid to keep him away from the Tigers. We'll know a lot more than we know now.

Christ...

 

I am not disputing that, merely stating Freddy's had a better career than Vazquez.

 

except you haven't been stating that, you've been saying you'd rather have Freddy Garcia starting than Javier Vazquez. You even said that in the post I quoted - Oh, and I'd take Freddy's 4.09 career ERA over Vazquez's Montreal-NL-inflated career 4.29 ERA any day of the week. That doesn't look like you just saying Freddy's had a better career than Vazquez.

I don't.

 

 

except you haven't been stating that, you've been saying you'd rather have Freddy Garcia starting than Javier Vazquez. You even said that in the post I quoted - Oh, and I'd take Freddy's 4.09 career ERA over Vazquez's Montreal-NL-inflated career 4.29 ERA any day of the week. That doesn't look like you just saying Freddy's had a better career than Vazquez.

 

Well, the original poster was comparing the two pitchers in their careers, or at least I thought he was. Him pointing out that Garcia's 4.09 ERA wasn't a massive upgrade over Vazquez's 4.29 ERA. I took that to mean that Garcia wasn't all that much better than Vazquez during their career. I disagree with that. Garcia was much better.

 

I said I would take a healthy Garcia (i.e. Garcia of 2004 - 2005) over Vazquez and then added that it was doubtful Garcia was healthy now.

If we can get a solid to good pitcher, obviously go ahead, but our pitching is good enough that we don't need to take fliers on high risk guys. No thanks.

If we can get a solid to good pitcher, obviously go ahead, but our pitching is good enough that we don't need to take fliers on high risk guys. No thanks.

 

I don't think Garcia would qualify as a high risk guy. To get him, a team has to sign him for a couple of months of the season without giving up any talent or draft picks (that I know of). It's the ultimate no risk.

I don't think Garcia would qualify as a high risk guy. To get him, a team has to sign him for a couple of months of the season without giving up any talent or draft picks (that I know of). It's the ultimate no risk.

 

except for the $2-3 million you'd have to throw at him

except for the $2-3 million you'd have to throw at him

 

 

WOW! What a risk there. Uribe's getting paid twice as much just to get fat on the bench.

More along the lines of: "Vazquez has 1 good year, and people are ready to annoint him an ace."

 

GMAB with this stuff. Career 4.29 ERA, working on his 4th below average season in the last 5 years, and you're trying to tell me it's 1 bad month? Please. What you see is what you get. People should realize last year was the exception, not the norm. It just goes to show that guys with good stuff will always get the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

 

Buehrle's pretty much had 1 bad season in his career. Bad comparison.

Last year was the exception? Ok believe that if you want, but JV's numbers from the 2nd half of 2006 to the end of last season indicated argubly he was the White Sox's best pitcher throughout that period. That to me showed the guy was making progress after Coop tweaked something in his delivery.

 

And he 1st 2 months of the season were pretty good, ERA just under or around 4 IIRC, which is not bad. But like I said, it's been 1 bad month. How often over the past 5 seasons have we seen Mark Buehrle get hit hard over a month? Quite a bit I would say. But just because he has a track record he got more of the beenfit of the doubt over the 1st 2 months than JV has over the last month. Is a guy with a 4.29 career ERA really that bad though?

 

All Vaz needs to do more is to get his control back on track and start pitching inside more.

Well, the original poster was comparing the two pitchers in their careers, or at least I thought he was. Him pointing out that Garcia's 4.09 ERA wasn't a massive upgrade over Vazquez's 4.29 ERA. I took that to mean that Garcia wasn't all that much better than Vazquez during their career. I disagree with that. Garcia was much better.

 

I said I would take a healthy Garcia (i.e. Garcia of 2004 - 2005) over Vazquez and then added that it was doubtful Garcia was healthy now.

As much as people talk about Javy's great stuff, I'll take Garcia in his prime over Javy. The key is Javy has thus far had a longer career so to speak, which you have to give him credit for. You can also say that Javy may have had a better career had he spent the early part of his careers pitching in a pitchers heaven (Safeco) and playing for a good team (as opposed to playing for the Expos).

 

Still, I remember when the Sox first acquired Freddy and just how absolutely nasty his stuff was. Its too bad he never had full confidence in it and let other teams find ways to beat him because had he pounded the zone with that stuff, he'd have been a perennial 20 game winner on a good club. The one terrible thing about Javy, Jose, and Freddy (Gavin & Danks too) is that they can be beat with minimal hits because a single or walk can easily be turned into a runner on 2nd (cause they all suck horribly at holding runners and having shorter deliveries with runners on; you could say the same about Maddux, but he never ever walked guys).

except for the $2-3 million you'd have to throw at him

I guess the question is, 2-3 million at Garcia or 2-3 million at some international prospects (or maybe some of that slotted towards Kyle Long). I personally could see a need at the starting spot considering how at some point we are going to have to skip some starts from some of the young guys (or at least piggy-back them with someone else). However, the Sox could easily turn things over to Clayton Richard or Lance Broadway and take there chances there (too bad Broadway has been in a funk lately because if he was still cruising I would be all about letting Garcia do his thing elsewhere and just know that worse case scenario we'll rely on Lance for a few starts; I say a few starts, because if someone actually went down, at that point Kenny would probably have to look at the trade market).