It just can't be that the "blue dogs" realize they are GONE as a result of the PEOPLE speaking up, can it? It has to be 100% about the lobbyists and cronisim and how they're a bunch of p*****s now because they're not going far enough.

 

It cracks me up that when people actually rise up about an issue that's against liberal idealism, it's everything in the world as to why except that people tend to be right of center and don't want their government messing with their lives more then they already are. Why, that CANNOT happen, can it?

That's a pretty dramatic oversimplification of what I just said.

Dems have the open tent and some opposing viewpoints are allowed - also means they can't do solid coalitions as well as the GOP. GOP has become racked-in walk-the-line-or-else, which means they can move better as a full group on issues, but it also means they automatically end up guttered in the far wing of their party, as we see now. Its the good and bad of each.

 

Dems have the open tent and some opposing viewpoints are allowed - also means they can't do solid coalitions as well as the GOP. GOP has become racked-in walk-the-line-or-else, which means they can move better as a full group on issues, but it also means they automatically end up guttered in the far wing of their party, as we see now. Its the good and bad of each.

This is what I was saying except I was more negative.

The senate isn't exactly a great representation of the populace as a whole, you'd find that in the house, which isn't having these problems. I don't think I should have to explain that each state gets 2 senators, regardless of population.

In all seriousness, if the Dems really believe that America wants this, why are they afraid to use their political capital on it?

Short answer, because they're Democrats.

 

Unlike the modern GOP, there has never really been a singular voice in the party.

Short answer, because they're Democrats.

 

Unlike the modern GOP, there has never really been a singular voice in the party.

 

Which is why I really think if a party is going to split, it isn't going to be the GOP.

BTW, reconciliation is going to be where the public option all of a sudden ends up on the table again. And there's no way to stop that.

I'm not sure they are going to need reconciliation. What they need is to convince dem senators to vote for cloture, but if they want, against the bill.

 

The big PO vote will be when the house and senate get together.

I'm not sure they are going to need reconciliation. What they need is to convince dem senators to vote for cloture, but if they want, against the bill.

 

The big PO vote will be when the house and senate get together.

That is reconciliation.

That is reconciliation.

 

i thought you were talking of the process of pushing the bill on simple majority.

You all can't stand the fact that the town halls, etc. and the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DO NOT WANT THIS s***.

 

Kap, everyone knows what occurred in those town hall meetings was more a reflection on which side was the best organized and funded to have their people there. Demonstration are never a great way to judge popularity, especially when many people attended to fight shadows because of the gross amount of misinformation that has been spewed.

 

They don't want death panels! They don't want socialism! They don't want what the GOP radio network has told them.

And where does "the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DO NOT WANT THIS s***" come from?

And where does "the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DO NOT WANT THIS s***" come from?

Nowhere. I have not seen a single poll or survey that said that - not one. They have all said, even the ones specific to doctors, that some majority wants reform AND wants a public option.

 

but, polls aren't to be trusted.

Perhaps Kap thinks a bunch of people waving Obama signs with swastikas = a majority.

but, polls aren't to be trusted.

Some aren't. Just like the climate change debate, not every scientist or every scientific piece should be taken at face value. But in both cases, when ALL OF THEM line up to the same conclusion more or less, its time to face reality.

 

Some aren't. Just like the climate change debate, not every scientist or every scientific piece should be taken at face value. But in both cases, when ALL OF THEM line up to the same conclusion more or less, its time to face reality.

 

Like i've said before, most every poll i've seen comes with a full package of their methodology and questioning.

 

for instance, the new kaiser family foundation poll, once you track the news articles to its original source, has the full methodology here:

http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/posr092909pkg.cfm.

Which is why I really think if a party is going to split, it isn't going to be the GOP.

 

It's possible, but not likely. The GOP has shrank ridiculously in the last decade, there's not much left to split when it comes to leadership.

 

The Dems have had a pretty good history of balancing needs of diametrically opposed communities within their own camp, because the party has been historically been guided by pragmatism rather than ideology.

Some aren't. Just like the climate change debate, not every scientist or every scientific piece should be taken at face value. But in both cases, when ALL OF THEM line up to the same conclusion more or less, its time to face reality.

What reality? What the hell are you talking about? No one says that something doesn't need to be done.

 

So what you're telling me is everyone wants government run health care? Bull.

Kap, everyone knows what occurred in those town hall meetings was more a reflection on which side was the best organized and funded to have their people there. Demonstration are never a great way to judge popularity, especially when many people attended to fight shadows because of the gross amount of misinformation that has been spewed.

 

They don't want death panels! They don't want socialism! They don't want what the GOP radio network has told them.

You guys live in a paralell universe or something. The town halls were all people that were paid, planted, and "organized" BY INSURANCE LOBBYISTS just like Obama said they would, right? It couldn't be that people don't want government run health care. It just couldn't be.

 

What reality? What the hell are you talking about? No one says that something doesn't need to be done.

 

So what you're telling me is everyone wants government run health care? Bull.

No, I'm telling you that every poll and every survey published so far indicates a majority of people, even a majority of health care professionals, want reform, and want a public option. YOU said that wasn't true, which flies in the face of reality.

 

No, no one is telling you that, kap.

I can see why you think the way you do Kap. When you have Fox News on 24/7 it might look like 99% of Americans don't want health care reform.

You guys live in a paralell universe or something. The town halls were all people that were paid, planted, and "organized" BY INSURANCE LOBBYISTS just like Obama said they would, right? It couldn't be that people don't want government run health care. It just couldn't be.

 

people. Yes, there are plural, people, that don't want "government run healthcare". One, that's not what's happening. Two, just because some people don't, doesn't mean all don't.

 

When we say the majority of Americans favor a public option. Majority = >50%. Meaning not all. But more than half. In fact, quite a tic more.

 

And, there were quite a bit of conservative groups organizing tea party protests. I'm not saying people there weren't genuinely mad that the government was going to kill their grandmother or that the nazis were taking over, just that there was a bit push to get people into the health care forums to hoot and holler and say "READ THE BILL"

No, I'm telling you that every poll and every survey published so far indicates a majority of people, even a majority of health care professionals, want reform, and want a public option. YOU said that wasn't true, which flies in the face of reality.

I know people want reform. Duh. We've all said that. But where the line is... is the public "OPTION", which in reality, isn't an "OPTION" at all over time. That's where the polls turn pretty dramatically, and that has been and continues to be my point. That's why the town halls and all of that happened. My point is no more or no less.

 

And BS, seriously, I don't watch Fox News. I think I've had it on a total of about two hours in the last two years. Maybe I should start.