White Sox listening to offers for Buehrle

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

GMAB. Rasmus was rated the #3 prospect by BA going into 2009. He was a 3.5 WAR at the ripe old age of 23. All you have to do is watch him play and you can see the insane talent that is there. If the Cardinals called up and asked for Buehrle and said will give you Rasmus KW would have to enter the witness protection program due to every GM in the game being kermit the frog green with envy. Don't compare Jordan f***ing Danks to Colby Rasmus.

The Sox could eat every penny of Buehrle's contract and that deal would still be retarded. The value of productive CF is extremely high. Rios at $12M is a bargain. Rasmus at next to nothing is so far beyond that it's not even funny. Rasmus will produce the way a $15M CF on the open market will be expected to produce, and he'll do it at a wage so low that his presence will pay for the filling of several other positions each year of his contract. It's not talent-for-talent in a vacuum.

[soxrwhite]

I'm not sure we all know he ain't what he used to be. For the three seasons 2007-2009, MB put up numbers pretty much in line with his career averages, with ERA's in the mid-upper 3's, similar WHIP and other values. 2010 was a bad year, just as 2006 was, but not AS bad as 2006. To me, there is every indication that 2010 was just an aberrant season.

 

Can't say for sure of course, its POSSIBLE that 2010 was the beginning a slide down. But looking at his career and his age, I'd say that's not likely.

 

His contract is no bargain, but as others have pointed out, he has met the value of the contract so far with his performance. So I am not sure how or why people are 100% convinced that his contract is some sort of albatross.

 

 

I've watched Buehrle his whole career and numbers can lie. He is not as good as he once was. At least not consistently. It seems as though he has trouble getting the ball over 85mph. I am not saying our beloved Buehrle is worthless just don't expect teams lining up to take his cintract and give us there star players in return. Trading him for no-names would be a pr disaster and cost more in the long run than paying him.

[Lemon_44]

If Lee doesn't sign with NY, what about a Buehrle/ Brett Gardner kind of deal ? Money is no object for NY and Gardner can take over for Juan.

[witesoxfan]

If Lee doesn't sign with NY, what about a Buehrle/ Brett Gardner kind of deal ? Money is no object for NY and Gardner can take over for Juan.

 

I doubt Buehrle would accept a trade to New York, Buehrle isn't anywhere close to the caliber of Cliff Lee, and Brett Gardner is really, really good.

 

If the Sox are going to trade a left handed starter to New York and have any shot in hell at getting Brett Gardner in return, that starter is John Danks, and even then, the Yankees are left without a left fielder too.

 

The Yankees don't have any reason to deal Brett Gardner. And if they don't sign Cliff Lee, they aren't going to suddenly have a s***ty team or have an incomplete rotation. They made the playoffs with virtually the same team, and they'll probably do it again too.

[greg775]

I've watched Buehrle his whole career and numbers can lie. He is not as good as he once was. At least not consistently. It seems as though he has trouble getting the ball over 85mph. I am not saying our beloved Buehrle is worthless just don't expect teams lining up to take his cintract and give us there star players in return. Trading him for no-names would be a pr disaster and cost more in the long run than paying him.

 

I think his numbers haven't been good.

My eyes tell me he's still damn good.

He's a damn good pitcher and we tend to undervalue our own. Somebody would gladly pay his salary. He's a damn fine pitcher.

I'd say he's an great No. 3 starter on a staff and still a good No. 2 starter.

[greg775]

In what fantasy world did Colby Rasmus become a superstar?

 

I'm always fascinated...

- how other team's young players with 'potential' are deified, and

- how quickly our view of our own players goes from rockstar to dog s***

 

It's human nature. People devalue the known and value the unknown. Fans know everything there is to know about guys on the Sox.

They don't see guys on other teams play every day.

It's always been that way, always will be.

 

Like in college. If you are an observer of one of the bigger programs, you see he fans salivate over the incoming freshmen and transfers and devalue the juniors and seniors who have been there, done that.

Edited December 14, 2010 by greg775

[witesoxfan]

It's human nature. People devalue the known and value the unknown. Fans know everything there is to know about guys on the Sox.

They don't see guys on other teams play every day.

It's always been that way, always will be.

 

Like in college. If you are an observer of one of the bigger programs, you see he fans salivate over the incoming freshmen and transfers and devalue the juniors and seniors who have been there, done that.

 

That may be human nature, but this is also logistics. Colby Rasmus has put up good numbers at the major league level, Mark Buehrle has too throughout the duration of his career, but he's going to be 32 next year, is due $14 million, and is a free agent at the end of the season.

 

Would you trade Gordon Beckham for Wandy Rodriguez? I know I wouldn't. I also think you can reasonably assume (or know) that:

-Colby Rasmus is better than Gordon Beckham

-Wandy Rodriguez is better than Mark Buehrle

-Wandy Rodriguez will be cheaper than Mark Buehrle

 

At some point in time, people need to realize that we aren't simply undervaluing our own players but instead are not undervaluing other team's players. Colby Rasmus may not be a superstar, but he's still a pretty damn good player, and the Cardinals likely aren't going to be trying to go out and spend another $14 million on a starting pitcher when they already have about $50 million committed to their current rotation.

[Lillian]

I think that these trade ideas have to be based upon a mutual need, and desire on the part of both teams.

With that in mind, how about this idea floated by a poster on WSI?:

 

Joe Blanton and his 2 yr. $ 17 mil. contract and Domomnic Brown for Carlos Quentin?

 

The Phillies might actually go for that deal. They're looking for a Right handed power hitting outfielder, to replace Werth, and they want to dump Blanton's salary.

 

However, which pitcher then gets traded, and for what?

 

Now the Buerhle to the Yankees idea makes more sense. But maybe we take Granderson instead of Gardner. Granderson helps make up the loss of Quentin, better than Gardner would. Moreover, the Yankees would be much more likely to trade him than Gardner.

 

Your outfield is Dominic Brown in LF, Granderson in CF, and Rios in RF. That is a great defensive outfield.

Vs. LHP you could sit Granderson, put Viciedo in LF, Rios in CF and Brown in RF

 

The savings on Quentin and Buerhle would pay for Granderson, Blanton and Brown, and leave a little money left over this year for a reliever or two.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

I think that these trade ideas have to be based upon a mutual need, and desire on the part of both teams.

With that in mind, how about this idea floated by a poster on WSI?:

 

Joe Blanton and his 2 yr. $ 17 mil. contract and Domomnic Brown for Carlos Quentin?

 

The Phillies might actually go for that deal. They're looking for a Right handed power hitting outfielder, to replace Werth, and they want to dump Blanton's salary.

 

However, which pitcher then gets traded, and for what?

 

Now the Buerhle to the Yankees idea makes more sense. But maybe we take Granderson instead of Gardner. Granderson helps make up the loss of Quentin, better than Gardner would. Moreover, the Yankees would be much more likely to trade him than Gardner.

 

Your outfield is Dominic Brown in LF, Granderson in CF, and Rios in RF. That is a great defensive outfield.

Vs. LHP you could sit Granderson, put Viciedo in LF, Rios in CF and Brown in RF

 

The savings on Quentin and Buerhle would pay for Granderson, Blanton and Brown, and leave a little money left over this year for a reliever or two.

 

I like your proposal. But I follow the Phillies quite extensively and from everything I've heard/read, Dominic Brown is essentially their Jason Heyward. The Phillies have been trading prospects at a furious pace the last few years. But Brown is still there. They wouldn't even include him in any package for Halladay. No way in hell they're trading him for CQ (though I'm sure they'd love to shed Blanton's salary). As far as MB to the Yankees, I don't see a match there. Granderson is notoriously worthless against LHP and is owed over $18 million the next two years. They're probably already regretting that trade. Gardner is one of the few quality, cost-controlled players they have. I doubt they would part for with him in any deal for Buehrle.

 

[Lillian]

I like your proposal. But I follow the Phillies quite extensively and from everything I've heard/read, Dominic Brown is essentially their Jason Heyward. The Phillies have been trading prospects at a furious pace the last few years. But Brown is still there. They wouldn't even include him in any package for Halladay. No way in hell they're trading him for CQ (though I'm sure they'd love to shed Blanton's salary). As far as MB to the Yankees, I don't see a match there. Granderson is notoriously worthless against LHP and is owed over $18 million the next two years. They're probably already regretting that trade. Gardner is one of the few quality, cost-controlled players they have. I doubt they would part for with him in any deal for Buehrle.

 

Thanks for the response. Moreover, I just realized that the Yankees don't really have another outfielder to replace anyone currently in their outfield.

I thought that Thames was still there, but it looks like it will be Granderson, Gardner and Swisher, with no one else really ready to help.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Thanks for the response. Moreover, I just realized that the Yankees don't really have another outfielder to replace anyone currently in their outfield.

I thought that Thames was still there, but it looks like it will be Granderson, Gardner and Swisher, with no one else really ready to help.

 

Yeah, the Yankees system is loaded with catching and pitching prospects. But they're pretty dry when it comes to position prospects.

[balfanman]

I doubt Buehrle would accept a trade to New York, Buehrle isn't anywhere close to the caliber of Cliff Lee, and Brett Gardner is really, really good.

 

I don't think that Buehrle would accept a trade to the Yankees either, but I do have to disagree on the bolded statement. I don't know how you define "caliber", and for the record I don't know how I would define it either, but I think that Buehrle is at least in the same ballpark as Lee as a pitcher. Lee may have better stuff, I'm not real sure about that as I haven't watched Lee all that much, Buehrle has a much longer tract record, and both are a little risky for various reasons already discussed. At the moment it is very possible that Lee is a better overall pitcher, just not head and shoulders above Buehrle in my opinion.

 

I look at it this way; If the White Sox (Buehrle starting} were playing Lees' team (Lee starting}, I would give the Sox a very good chance of winning with Buehrle outpitching Lee that day. If they played a 100 times, I would give the Sox a very good chance at winning at least 50 of them.

[NorthSideSox72]

I don't think that Buehrle would accept a trade to the Yankees either, but I do have to disagree on the bolded statement. I don't know how you define "caliber", and for the record I don't know how I would define it either, but I think that Buehrle is at least in the same ballpark as Lee as a pitcher. Lee may have better stuff, I'm not real sure about that as I haven't watched Lee all that much, Buehrle has a much longer tract record, and both are a little risky for various reasons already discussed. At the moment it is very possible that Lee is a better overall pitcher, just not head and shoulders above Buehrle in my opinion.

 

I look at it this way; If the White Sox (Buehrle starting} were playing Lees' team (Lee starting}, I would give the Sox a very good chance of winning with Buehrle outpitching Lee that day. If they played a 100 times, I would give the Sox a very good chance at winning at least 50 of them.

No. Just no.

 

Buehrle is better at some things - defending his position, pickoffs. MB is also a very baseball smart guy. But pretty much everything else, Lee is far above and beyond him. Its really no contest.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't think that Buehrle would accept a trade to the Yankees either, but I do have to disagree on the bolded statement. I don't know how you define "caliber", and for the record I don't know how I would define it either, but I think that Buehrle is at least in the same ballpark as Lee as a pitcher. Lee may have better stuff, I'm not real sure about that as I haven't watched Lee all that much, Buehrle has a much longer tract record, and both are a little risky for various reasons already discussed. At the moment it is very possible that Lee is a better overall pitcher, just not head and shoulders above Buehrle in my opinion.

 

I look at it this way; If the White Sox (Buehrle starting} were playing Lees' team (Lee starting}, I would give the Sox a very good chance of winning with Buehrle outpitching Lee that day. If they played a 100 times, I would give the Sox a very good chance at winning at least 50 of them.

 

lol

[balfanman]

No. Just no.

 

Buehrle is better at some things - defending his position, pickoffs. MB is also a very baseball smart guy. But pretty much everything else, Lee is far above and beyond him. Its really no contest.

 

But isn't the main objective to perform well enough to give his team a chance to win the game? I realize that number of wins is a flawed stat for a pitcher, but no matter how he does it, Buehrle usually finds a way to at least keep his team in the game.

 

Again, I'm not stating that Lee isn't a better pitcher than Buehrle, especially at this point. All I'm saying is that he isn't so far behind that they cannot be in the same conversation. In fact, many have already stated that Lee isn't worth the contract that he's getting, I'll go so far as to state that over the next 5 years I would not be surprised to see that Buehrle is a more effective pitcher than Lee.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I don't think that Buehrle would accept a trade to the Yankees either, but I do have to disagree on the bolded statement. I don't know how you define "caliber", and for the record I don't know how I would define it either, but I think that Buehrle is at least in the same ballpark as Lee as a pitcher. Lee may have better stuff, I'm not real sure about that as I haven't watched Lee all that much, Buehrle has a much longer tract record, and both are a little risky for various reasons already discussed. At the moment it is very possible that Lee is a better overall pitcher, just not head and shoulders above Buehrle in my opinion.

 

I look at it this way; If the White Sox (Buehrle starting} were playing Lees' team (Lee starting}, I would give the Sox a very good chance of winning with Buehrle outpitching Lee that day. If they played a 100 times, I would give the Sox a very good chance at winning at least 50 of them.

Buehrle and Lee are similar in the way they attack hitters and the way they like to change speeds, and they way the easily deliver the ball to home plate. That's pretty much it though.

 

If you haven't seen much of post-surgery Lee then it goes like this: he spots his fastball the way a jungle warrior spots a blow dart; he changes speeds on EVERYTHING just like CC and the quality of his stuff is so good that he can turn each pitch into several different pitches - i.e. Buehrle can't do much with his fastball when he's topping out at 86-87, but Lee can get it up there around 94 and work down. Lee is just amazing. Hitters who face him several times per game still have lots of trouble squaring it up later in the game, in fact, most of the time opposing hitters just seem to get into a "funk" trying to battle him and by their last AB may be in worse shape than they were in their first AB. MB OTOH slows down as the game goes on and hitters become more comfortable. Lee is actually more of a workhorse lately too. He's just a completely different pitcher in all respects from where he was in his earlier Cleveland days. Both he and CC are. They became truly elite together.

[Balta1701]

Lee is actually more of a workhorse lately too.

Definitely true...but at least with the early season injury and the struggles when he arrived in TX last year, at least I kinda wonder whether we've started seeing the limits of that on Lee.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

But isn't the main objective to perform well enough to give his team a chance to win the game? I realize that number of wins is a flawed stat for a pitcher, but no matter how he does it, Buehrle usually finds a way to at least keep his team in the game.

 

Again, I'm not stating that Lee isn't a better pitcher than Buehrle, especially at this point. All I'm saying is that he isn't so far behind that they cannot be in the same conversation. In fact, many have already stated that Lee isn't worth the contract that he's getting, I'll go so far as to state that over the next 5 years I would not be surprised to see that Buehrle is a more effective pitcher than Lee.

Buehrle can definitely out-pitch Lee. Anyone who is capable of throwing a no-no and then backing it up with a perfecto is capable of out-pitching anyone. The thing is though, on any given day, Lee probably has a 70-80% chance of out-pitching MB. In the event we'd catch Lee in a little bit of a down turn and catch his offense also in a bit of a down turn, and we OTOH are hot as an offense with momentum on our side and Buehrle is hot too, then we could very well win that game. Lee's human and baseball is very hard to predict. But again, the odds just massively favor Lee.

 

Over 5 years I'd have to disagree. This version of Cliff Lee is capable of losing velocity on his FB and still being very good, if not elite. As the saying goes, there are pitchers and there are throwers. Lee is a pitcher. He is a student of the game through and through. He has enough in his repertoire and he understands hitters well enough to adjust quite a bit. Buehrle is the same in every way, except his velocity is already down and can't go much lower than it already is without him becoming a pitching machine. I don't think that will happen to Mark BTW, but just comparing the two, Lee is at a much higher elevation, and if he falls - even quite a bit - he can still land at an elevation that is above the realm of most starters in baseball.

[Balta1701]

Over 5 years I'd have to disagree. This version of Cliff Lee is capable of losing velocity on his FB and still being very good, if not elite. As the saying goes, there are pitchers and there are throwers. Lee is a pitcher. He is a student of the game through and through. He has enough in his repertoire and he understands hitters well enough to adjust quite a bit. Buehrle is the same in every way, except his velocity is already down and can't go much lower than it already is without him becoming a pitching machine. I don't think that will happen to Mark BTW, but just comparing the two, Lee is at a much higher elevation, and if he falls - even quite a bit - he can still land at an elevation that is above the realm of most starters in baseball.

Slightly OT...does anyone other than me sit here, read something like this about Lee, and think "how the Hell did the guy who could barely stay in the league in 2007 turn into a student of the game overnight"?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Slightly OT...does anyone other than me sit here, read something like this about Lee, and think "how the Hell did the guy who could barely stay in the league in 2007 turn into a student of the game overnight"?

 

Are you implying something?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Slightly OT...does anyone other than me sit here, read something like this about Lee, and think "how the Hell did the guy who could barely stay in the league in 2007 turn into a student of the game overnight"?

There was an interview with him during the WS I think? where this topic kind of came up in a round-about way, and IIRC it had something to do with a sick or possibly disabled child of his changing his outlook in life. Since he's always had a lot of raw talent (was a key piece in the Bartolo to Montreal deal) this makes a lot of sense to me, since so much of his game in mental.

[witesoxfan]

Slightly OT...does anyone other than me sit here, read something like this about Lee, and think "how the Hell did the guy who could barely stay in the league in 2007 turn into a student of the game overnight"?

 

It seems to me that he just started throwing strikes. He's always had good stuff - he was part of that Bartolo Colon trade, was the 30th ranked prospect in the game at one point, and did have one good full year in 2005 along with half of a good year in 2004 (before the White Sox knocked him on his ass).

 

Slightly more off-topic...the Indians got a s***load for Bartolo Colon. And, though it doesn't seem odd anymore, Grady Sizemore is probably the 3rd best player in that package. That's absolutely insane.

[Balta1701]

Are you implying something?

Nothilng about PED's, if that's what you're asking.

[False Alarm]

he spots his fastball the way a jungle warrior spots a blow dart...

c'mon, there are jungle warriors who are crappy shots. and sometimes they're just unlucky. BADIP, dude.

[TitoMB345]

c'mon, there are jungle warriors who are crappy shots. and sometimes they're just unlucky. BADIP, dude.

lol