danman31 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 27, 2011 -> 07:32 PM) This is where your eyes come into play. If you've seen Andrus or Escobar even a few times you can see the special defensive ability they have. Metrics are nice and good for the game. But to rely on metrics alone is futile. That's all well and good, but I think the debate really hinges on the value of defense. Through all the new metrics coming out, I think defense went from vastly underrated to a tad overrated. That seems to be how it goes I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 QUOTE (danman31 @ Jan 27, 2011 -> 08:07 PM) That's all well and good, but I think the debate really hinges on the value of defense. Through all the new metrics coming out, I think defense went from vastly underrated to a tad overrated. That seems to be how it goes I guess. Not sure if I agree or not. I'm just saying going by metrics alone is worthless. I've seen plenty of Andrus and Escobar and both are special in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 27, 2011 -> 10:12 PM) Not sure if I agree or not. I'm just saying going by metrics alone is worthless. I've seen plenty of Andrus and Escobar and both are special in the field. Well generally I think people see a huge UZR and they just explode, when in reality defensive metrics can fluctuate for any number of reasons and a lot of them don't agree with each other. I think they are a definitely a bit overrated at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 27, 2011 -> 05:28 PM) Well has it been justifiable? Are they actually worth that much? I mean, you essentially acknowledged that other players have been graded highly, but is it fair? I don't know that it is. Escobar had an OK year offensively, hit the ball well over a short time frame in the AFL, and suddenly he's the 2nd best prospect in the White Sox system? I think Viciedo and Morel have much, much brighter futures in the majors than Escobar does. I don't think stats tell Escobar's story at all, not like they ever do for a minor leaguer, but still. He must have really passed some eye tests with flying colors at the AFL. X amount of hits in Y amount of AFL at-bats can't matter much to any GM. It's fun for us fans who don't see the games, but I'm sure it matters peanuts. Something else is up with this kid- trade his ass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Jan 31, 2011 -> 09:15 PM) I don't think stats tell Escobar's story at all, not like they ever do for a minor leaguer, but still. He must have really passed some eye tests with flying colors at the AFL. X amount of hits in Y amount of AFL at-bats can't matter much to any GM. It's fun for us fans who don't see the games, but I'm sure it matters peanuts. Something else is up with this kid- trade his ass! I struggle putting a ton of weight into AFL statistics due to the natural tendency for it to be a hitters league (due to the climate) along with the fact that, while most pitchers are talented, a lot of them are simply guys that teams want to get an extended look at because most top pitching prospects have already reached a suitable amount of innings pitched for the year. So while the 13 XBHs are nice, I want to actually see him hit for power during the regular season before I declare him anything. I think that's probably pretty similar to how most other GMs feel too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 1, 2011 -> 01:33 AM) I struggle putting a ton of weight into AFL statistics due to the natural tendency for it to be a hitters league (due to the climate) along with the fact that, while most pitchers are talented, a lot of them are simply guys that teams want to get an extended look at because most top pitching prospects have already reached a suitable amount of innings pitched for the year. So while the 13 XBHs are nice, I want to actually see him hit for power during the regular season before I declare him anything. I think that's probably pretty similar to how most other GMs feel too. I think it just shows that given his skill set scouts are looking for a reason to like him. Players like him are rare so they are hoping that he can get the bat going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 QUOTE (danman31 @ Feb 1, 2011 -> 02:43 PM) I think it just shows that given his skill set scouts are looking for a reason to like him. Players like him are rare so they are hoping that he can get the bat going. If he can hit like Omar Infante, he's going to have a lot of value wherever he plays on the infield because of his glove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 1, 2011 -> 02:55 PM) If he can hit like Omar Infante, he's going to have a lot of value wherever he plays on the infield because of his glove. That's really gotta be on the top end of his projections though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jan 27, 2011 -> 03:42 PM) I was listening to their podcast and Goldstein said he takes position scarcity strongly into effect so that's why. I don't get it. I don't think he is anything but a .260., ML slap hitter with a great glove. Those guys are more prevalent than a 40-plus HR, .300 BA guy like Viciedo. Do analysts realize that he is still ONLY 21 years old? First I'd like to say that I listen to that podcast every week, it's the best thing going. With that being said, I think KG is valid in putting Escobar over Viciedo. As it's already been said with Escobar, you have a guy who HAS a great glove who won't hit a ton, but still will prevent a ton of runs with his glove. Then on the opposite spectrum you have Viciedo who MIGHT hit 40 homeruns, but comes with a lot of other questions, such as will he walk more than once every other month? Can he play any position on the field? I guess my bias comes down to this: Personally I just don't get the Viciedo hype. Guys who have the same OBP and their batting average need to get really, really, really lucky to sustain valuable production. I saw a few power surges with Tank, but I'm skeptical that he will ever come close to putting up typical big league slugger/no glove numbers that justify trotting him out to a corner OF spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 07:52 AM) First I'd like to say that I listen to that podcast every week, it's the best thing going. With that being said, I think KG is valid in putting Escobar over Viciedo. As it's already been said with Escobar, you have a guy who HAS a great glove who won't hit a ton, but still will prevent a ton of runs with his glove. Then on the opposite spectrum you have Viciedo who MIGHT hit 40 homeruns, but comes with a lot of other questions, such as will he walk more than once every other month? Can he play any position on the field? I guess my bias comes down to this: Personally I just don't get the Viciedo hype. Guys who have the same OBP and their batting average need to get really, really, really lucky to sustain valuable production. I saw a few power surges with Tank, but I'm skeptical that he will ever come close to putting up typical big league slugger/no glove numbers that justify trotting him out to a corner OF spot. He's 21 years old and has been out of Cuba for all of 2 years. I don't understand how these facts seem to be lost on so many people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Wait. A guy who basically has no position, and is blocked at DH by Dunn/Konerko and has major questions about whether he can hit enough to justify the awful defense and I'm supposed to buy into the hype? And do we know he IS 21? Because that first sentence made me laugh really, really hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 09:23 AM) Wait. A guy who basically has no position, and is blocked at DH by Dunn/Konerko and has major questions about whether he can hit enough to justify the awful defense and I'm supposed to buy into the hype? And do we know he IS 21? Because that first sentence made me laugh really, really hard. The era of horrid cuban record keeping is believed to have ended a decade before Viciedo was born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 06:52 AM) First I'd like to say that I listen to that podcast every week, it's the best thing going. With that being said, I think KG is valid in putting Escobar over Viciedo. As it's already been said with Escobar, you have a guy who HAS a great glove who won't hit a ton, but still will prevent a ton of runs with his glove. Then on the opposite spectrum you have Viciedo who MIGHT hit 40 homeruns, but comes with a lot of other questions, such as will he walk more than once every other month? Can he play any position on the field? I guess my bias comes down to this: Personally I just don't get the Viciedo hype. Guys who have the same OBP and their batting average need to get really, really, really lucky to sustain valuable production. I saw a few power surges with Tank, but I'm skeptical that he will ever come close to putting up typical big league slugger/no glove numbers that justify trotting him out to a corner OF spot. So if you could have only one of these guys in our system, you'd take Esobar over Viciedo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 09:05 AM) So if you could have only one of these guys in our system, you'd take Esobar over Viciedo? Yes without question. Seeing as both may never play for the big club, Escobar would be more valuable in a trade because of the lack of good shortstops in the bigs right now. I can go find a guy who can't field but has power potential. Those guys are in every org. Slick fielding shortstops who can handle the bat in the bigs are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 10:55 AM) Yes without question. Seeing as both may never play for the big club, Escobar would be more valuable in a trade because of the lack of good shortstops in the bigs right now. I can go find a guy who can't field but has power potential. Those guys are in every org. Slick fielding shortstops who can handle the bat in the bigs are not. Funny. I thought I saw Dayan hit a few bombs for the Sox last year. And you're wrong, guys with Viciedo's power potential are not in every organization. Everyone club in the league would inquire about Dayan if we started dangling him. Not so much with Escobar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 10:55 AM) Yes without question. Not to be a jackass but that's quite absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 10:22 AM) Funny. I thought I saw Dayan hit a few bombs for the Sox last year. And you're wrong, guys with Viciedo's power potential are not in every organization. Everyone club in the league would inquire about Dayan if we started dangling him. Not so much with Escobar. Except there appeared to be about zero interest in him at the trade deadline. The only reason Viciedo was up before September was because of the black hole at third. QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 01:06 PM) Not to be a jackass but that's quite absurd. Yet two professional scouts who do it for a living say otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 08:23 AM) Wait. A guy who basically has no position, and is blocked at DH by Dunn/Konerko and has major questions about whether he can hit enough to justify the awful defense and I'm supposed to buy into the hype? And do we know he IS 21? Because that first sentence made me laugh really, really hard. They are trying him in the outfield this year to get his bat into the lineup. Assuming he can be even Carlos Lee out there defensively, he's going to play. And he is going to hit. Whether he develops his plate discipline is going to be the biggest indicator in how he makes it. Anybody who takes Escobar over Viciedo is only taking him because Escobar's floor is much higher than Viciedo's. At the very least, Escobar should turn out to be a pretty damn good utility infielder, whereas Viciedo could certainly flame out and never be able to make it past AAA. Based on pure potential, Viciedo could be a .900+ OPS type of hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 09:55 AM) Yes without question. Seeing as both may never play for the big club, Escobar would be more valuable in a trade because of the lack of good shortstops in the bigs right now. I can go find a guy who can't field but has power potential. Those guys are in every org. Slick fielding shortstops who can handle the bat in the bigs are not. Since when can Escobar handle the bat? Did I miss something? Why do people suddenly think he is good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 09:44 PM) Except there appeared to be about zero interest in him at the trade deadline. The only reason Viciedo was up before September was because of the black hole at third. With all due respect, you couldn't be more wrong. Rizzo was obsessed with Viciedo, but KW wouldn't give him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 02:55 PM) Anybody who takes Escobar over Viciedo is only taking him because Escobar's floor is much higher than Viciedo's. At the very least, Escobar should turn out to be a pretty damn good utility infielder, whereas Viciedo could certainly flame out and never be able to make it past AAA. Based on pure potential, Viciedo could be a .900+ OPS type of hitter. I am no way making an argument that Viciedo has a lower ceiling than Escobar. But yeah that's my point in some ways. I just wasn't impressed with Tank when he was up. People are counting on him to hit when hes not patient and is just a dead fastball hitter. At least we know Escobar can stick with his glove. QUOTE (danman31 @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 03:31 PM) Since when can Escobar handle the bat? Did I miss something? Why do people suddenly think he is good? Straight from KG The Good: Escobar earns high marks defensively, with good instincts, soft hands, and one of the better infield arms in the system. What excited scouts in 2010 was the progress he made at the plate, as he showed a quicker bat and started to drive more balls. The Bad: While scouts think Escobar will be an everyday player, he can't fit toward the top of the lineup without improving his impatient approach. His newfound power led to some power-hungry swings, and he's prone to strikeouts. He's only an average runner and can't afford to lose a step. Perfect World Projection: He could be a good everyday shortstop with more than enough bat to easily play every day. QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 03:38 PM) With all due respect, you couldn't be more wrong. Rizzo was obsessed with Viciedo, but KW wouldn't give him up. Yeah I thought about it and I believe you are correct. I am wrong. It still doesn't make me change my mind about Viciedo though. Edited February 2, 2011 by Paint it Black Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 That Escobar report doesn't make it sound like he can hit. His perfect world projection is the absolute best he will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 QUOTE (danman31 @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 07:17 PM) That Escobar report doesn't make it sound like he can hit. His perfect world projection is the absolute best he will be. And this is funny comming from you Dan, who btw, is the biggest Escobar fan on this site as a prospect. (though you wouldn't know that with him lately) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 His .670 OPS in Birmingham mostly turned me off of him. It's nice to have a player like him in the system, but he has so far to go offensively I'm doubting he will ever make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Feb 2, 2011 -> 12:44 PM) Except there appeared to be about zero interest in him at the trade deadline. The only reason Viciedo was up before September was because of the black hole at third. Yet two professional scouts who do it for a living say otherwise. Just an FYI, Dunn would have been a member of the White Sox last year had the Sox been willing to give up Dayan Viciedo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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