Milkman delivers Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:35 PM) Nah, I'll safely assume that the NCAA does not give one s*** what a coach's wife/family thinks before handing down sanctions for improper behavior. The answer is yes* they did not interview them, the reason is because it doesn't matter what Joe's wife or his son think. Their input into sanctions on PSU football would be useless. They do not have additional facts or information relevant to the NCAA's decision that the NCAA would not have already had from independent and internal investigations. I can't figure out what's difficult to understand about all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) Its not about what his wife thinks. Its about does his wife have relevant information to the investigation. You cant willfully ignore witnesses who may have information that hurts your case. How do you know this? How do you know that Paterno's wife didnt have information that could exculpate her husband? What if Sandusky threatened to kill Paterno's family if he didnt cover up the abuse? You dont think that would have impacted whether they would have vacated Paterno's wins? It doesnt really matter, most American's are convict first ask questions later, I understand that I will always be in the minority. It sucks, but whatever, I really dont care that much on this subject. :lolhitting good troll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:36 PM) You've lost all of us. What is the Paterno family going to say, and why is it relevant? Are they going to prove the emails were fake? All the evidence is there. Hearing about him being a great family man doesn't do anything. I dont know what they would say. But I certainly believe that they should be able to say it, and then once you have all the facts make a decision. /shrugs As I said before, even a criminal gets to have his family ask for leniency. You dont have to give it, but this whole thing would be wrapped up if they simply let the Paterno's vent, and then handed out the same penalties. I dont really care, I think the NCAA is a sham, but thats an argument for a different day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) Does it? Are there rules saying that they can't do this? I'm betting that there aren't. Some law blogs are saying they violated Federal Law. I am not that well versed in it, and I am not going to read the entire NCAA Rule Book to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) Its not about what his wife thinks. Its about does his wife have relevant information to the investigation. You cant willfully ignore witnesses who may have information that hurts your case. How do you know this? How do you know that Paterno's wife didnt have information that could exculpate her husband? What if Sandusky threatened to kill Paterno's family if he didnt cover up the abuse? You dont think that would have impacted whether they would have vacated Paterno's wins? It doesnt really matter, most American's are convict first ask questions later, I understand that I will always be in the minority. It sucks, but whatever, I really dont care that much on this subject. Get off of the high horse. I swear I picture you as a Mob lawyer with every post you make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 06:39 PM) Its not about what his wife thinks. Its about does his wife have relevant information to the investigation. You cant willfully ignore witnesses who may have information that hurts your case. How do you know this? How do you know that Paterno's wife didnt have information that could exculpate her husband? Mrs. Paterno has evidence that could exculpate her husband but has been keeping it to herself for months? That's nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 This whole thing would not be "wrapped up," the Paternos would still be whining to anyone and everyone about how great of a person JoePa was and how he's being unfairly treated. You keep analogizing Penn State University Football and the sanctions handed down by the NCAA to a criminal individual and their family. It's nonsense. If Barclays gets heavily sanctioned over the LIBOR manipulation, are they going to bring in the CEO's brother before they determine what to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:41 PM) Some law blogs are saying they violated Federal Law. I am not that well versed in it, and I am not going to read the entire NCAA Rule Book to find out. link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) Get off of the high horse. I swear I picture you as a Mob lawyer with every post you make. Ive never defended a criminal in my life. I just care about the system, and the system works best when we defend the worst as hard we defend the best. I can not be a criminal attorney, because I could not live with myself If I was able to get a criminal off on a technicality. But the system does need those who are willing to live with that. /shrugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) Mrs. Paterno has evidence that could exculpate her husband but has been keeping it to herself for months? That's nuts. Yeah, a Paterno would never withhold information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 06:41 PM) As I said before, even a criminal gets to have his family ask for leniency. You dont have to give it, but this whole thing would be wrapped up if they simply let the Paterno's vent, and then handed out the same penalties. The Paternos have been venting. If they had any extra relevant information to provide or a reasonable defense of JoePa, they'd have given it. But instead, they just say "NUH UH!" over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:44 PM) link? http://www.solomonsimmons.com/ncaa-sanctio...-penn-st-wrong/ http://michaelbucknerlaw.wordpress.com/201...nst-penn-state/ Its still early, most lawyers wont crank this stuff out that quick. Im guessing by the end of the week there is more information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) The Paternos have been venting. If they had any extra relevant information to provide or a reasonable defense of JoePa, they'd have given it. But instead, they just say "NUH UH!" over and over. The Paterno family dog is being held in a secret prison by Sandusky's affiliates to ensure their silence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:44 PM) This whole thing would not be "wrapped up," the Paternos would still be whining to anyone and everyone about how great of a person JoePa was and how he's being unfairly treated. You keep analogizing Penn State University Football and the sanctions handed down by the NCAA to a criminal individual and their family. It's nonsense. If Barclays gets heavily sanctioned over the LIBOR manipulation, are they going to bring in the CEO's brother before they determine what to do? Id bet that if they thought the CEO was stealing money theyd bring in his wife. Brother is not equal to wife. The law provides for spousal immunity because most people share information with their husband/wife. There is no "family immunity" because it doesnt work that way. So yes Id bet they bring in the wife. I bet they brought in Sandusky's wife to ask her what she knew, I bet they brought in Madoff's wife. Even in a civil lawsuit, you depose the wife, just in case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:50 PM) Id bet that if they thought the CEO was stealing money theyd bring in his wife. Brother is not equal to wife. The law provides for spousal immunity because most people share information with their husband/wife. There is no "family immunity" because it doesnt work that way. So yes Id bet they bring in the wife. I bet they brought in Sandusky's wife to ask her what she knew, I bet they brought in Madoff's wife. Even in a civil lawsuit, you depose the wife, just in case. You keep shifting from institutional (PSU, Barclays) to individual (Paterno, CEO). It doesn't make any sense. SEC regulators are not going to call in Jamie Dimon's family to investigate what went wrong on JPM trades because that would be dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/07/23/ber...ball-continues/ Unfortunately, no attempt to change this particular culture can really succeed without a suspension of the games themselves. In fact, there are already indications that this entire scandal will be used as a rallying point for the team. Penn State raised $208 million, its second-highest total ever for a single fiscal year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:53 PM) You keep shifting from institutional (PSU, Barclays) to individual (Paterno, CEO). It doesn't make any sense. SEC regulators are not going to call in Jamie Dimon's family to investigate what went wrong on JPM trades because that would be dumb. Im not shifting, I am talking about Paterno's wins being vacated, not PSU. You could punish the school, but let Paterno keep the victories. This isnt about PSU, its about Paterno. You are the one who cant seem to differentiate between penalties against PSU and penalties against Paterno. If they thought that Jamie Dimon stole money (criminal act) I guarantee they would call in his wife. You are comparing apples and oranges. Fining JPM is not equivalent to individually holding Dimon liable. In order to pierce the corporate veil, they would need to show more. The same idea should apply to PSU/Paterno. This is the last thing Im most likely going to say. The problem I have with Strangesox position, is that it is so very easy to just convict. Everyone likes a good conviction, everyone likes the bad guy to go away, its just easy to be on that side. The problem is that every once in a while, we make a mistake, and that person isnt actually guilty. So I am of the opinion, that you take every precaution to make sure that you dont make that mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) This isn't a "conviction" and Paterno's wins weren't directly vacated, PSU's wins were. eta: and there is absolutely no penalty here, aside from pride. Paterno's wife isn't going to jail, she isn't losing any money. The cost of "getting it wrong" here is minimal, not to mention the likelihood. USC's 2004 national title was vacated, which meant Pete Carroll's win was vacated in the same manner as Paterno's. Should the NCAA have talked to his family first? Edited July 23, 2012 by StrangeSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 02:02 PM) This isn't a "conviction" and Paterno's wins weren't directly vacated, PSU's wins were. This is why your comparison to JPM makes no mistake. JPM has money Dimon has money They are not the same money, so when JPM gets fined, it does not touch Dimon's money. When you have wins, that are the schools, that are the coaches and the players, you have a much different issue. Forgetting Paterno for a second, what about the players? They did nothing wrong, yet all of their victories are now tarnished. If JPM makes a mistake, the regular employees dont lose money that they already earned. Its just a far more complicated issue, and yeah its easy to say "PSU deserves it", but does everyone at PSU really deserve it? I dont know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&T Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) http://www.solomonsimmons.com/ncaa-sanctio...-penn-st-wrong/ http://michaelbucknerlaw.wordpress.com/201...nst-penn-state/ Its still early, most lawyers wont crank this stuff out that quick. Im guessing by the end of the week there is more information. They signed a consent decree. So, no, there is no violation of any law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (G&T @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 02:06 PM) They signed a consent decree. So, no, there is no violation of any law. And that answers that, which is why I didnt really argue that it was illegal, as I just had no idea. Edited July 23, 2012 by Soxbadger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 08:06 PM) This is why your comparison to JPM makes no mistake. JPM has money Dimon has money They are not the same money, so when JPM gets fined, it does not touch Dimon's money. When you have wins, that are the schools, that are the coaches and the players, you have a much different issue. Forgetting Paterno for a second, what about the players? They did nothing wrong, yet all of their victories are now tarnished. If JPM makes a mistake, the regular employees dont lose money that they already earned. Its just a far more complicated issue, and yeah its easy to say "PSU deserves it", but does everyone at PSU really deserve it? I dont know. I don't think the removal of wins, which is almost purely a symbolic gesture, is at all comparable to fining employees, which is a direct and concrete harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) I don't think the removal of wins, which is almost purely a symbolic gesture, is at all comparable to fining employees, which is a direct and concrete harm. If its just purely symbolic, why do it? And how do you know its not a concrete harm? My guess is that there are some players who would rather be fined than lose their records/wins/etc. I know I would, you can make more money, cant go back in time and win more games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 08:18 PM) If its just purely symbolic, why do it? Kick in the balls of the program. QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 08:18 PM) And how do you know its not a concrete harm? ...how is it? QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 08:18 PM) My guess is that there are some players who would rather be fined than lose their records/wins/etc. I know I would, you can make more money, cant go back in time and win more games. What use do NCAA-certified game wins have in these players' lives? Are they going to suffer great harm when they tell a personal anecdote about a dramatic game they won and a listener says "Nope, that story has been invalidated!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 23, 2012 -> 02:06 PM) This is why your comparison to JPM makes no mistake. JPM has money Dimon has money They are not the same money, so when JPM gets fined, it does not touch Dimon's money. When you have wins, that are the schools, that are the coaches and the players, you have a much different issue. Forgetting Paterno for a second, what about the players? They did nothing wrong, yet all of their victories are now tarnished. If JPM makes a mistake, the regular employees dont lose money that they already earned. Its just a far more complicated issue, and yeah its easy to say "PSU deserves it", but does everyone at PSU really deserve it? I dont know. That is true. But there is only one constant person over those years of vacated football wins...Paterno. Each player had up to 6 years of time on the football team (redshirt years included). This covers a 14 year period. Sorry, the CEO of the football team deserves his wins vacated, the players don't be they are collateral damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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