Dick Allen Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 09:56 AM) I'd be willing to bet you a 6 pack of your favorite beer that Flowers out-produces AJ next year. It would depend on what you would determine to be "outproduce". Fangraphs WAR seems to be your number of choice, but I find flaws with that system. According to fangraphs, Francisco Liriano was only .3 WAR less than Mark Buehrle last year, when Buehrle had his typical season and Liriano was sent to the bullpen by 2 teams for failing as a starter. The fact is, this thread is Sox looking for a LH bat. AJ was a LH bat that produced 27 homers last season. The offense wasn't good enough. That production will have to be replaced. Perhaps its players improving. I would expect Viciedo to get better. I think Beckham got better as the year went on. Rios I worry about. Konerko I think will be more consistent now that the chip has been removed from his wrist. Adam Dunn hit .181 after May 26th and sat out the final game so he wouldn't set a strikeout record. There is reason to think there may be a problem there. Ramirez has to be better. De Aza I could see having the same type of season. Keppinger will be hard pressed to match his numbers last season, but if you combine Morel/Hudson/Youkilis, except for the power, it shouldn't take much to outproduce the sum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 10:41 AM) 05 was a retool. retool, rebuild, reset. A different team took the field. And you know what, the Sox arent rebuilding now because one position ( C) where a young player took the position of a longtime veteran. There was a hell of a lot more turnover in 05 than there is now. Both corner outfelders, closer(s), set up, catcher, 4th and 5th starters, both middle infielders, and DH(split time with Carl and Frank). We arent seeing that this season and Lamar is freaking out about a rebuild Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 10:51 AM) It would depend on what you would determine to be "outproduce". Fangraphs WAR seems to be your number of choice, but I find flaws with that system. According to fangraphs, Francisco Liriano was only .3 WAR less than Mark Buehrle last year, when Buehrle had his typical season and Liriano was sent to the bullpen by 2 teams for failing as a starter. The fact is, this thread is Sox looking for a LH bat. AJ was a LH bat that produced 27 homers last season. The offense wasn't good enough. That production will have to be replaced. Perhaps its players improving. I would expect Viciedo to get better. I think Beckham got better as the year went on. Rios I worry about. Konerko I think will be more consistent now that the chip has been removed from his wrist. Adam Dunn hit .181 after May 26th and sat out the final game so he wouldn't set a strikeout record. There is reason to think there may be a problem there. Ramirez has to be better. De Aza I could see having the same type of season. Keppinger will be hard pressed to match his numbers last season, but if you combine Morel/Hudson/Youkilis, except for the power, it shouldn't take much to outproduce the sum. The 7th highest scoring offense in baseball wasn't good enough? Those are some high standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 11:00 AM) The 7th highest scoring offense in baseball wasn't good enough? Those are some high standards. Did the White Sox make the playoffs? The offense wasn't good enough and faded at the end, except when they were eliminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 11:09 AM) Did the White Sox make the playoffs? The offense wasn't good enough and faded at the end, except when they were eliminated. So the offense sucked because they didn't score enough runs for a league average pitching staff. I see. Yet the Sox outscored 3 of the 5 AL playoff teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 10:58 AM) retool, rebuild, reset. A different team took the field. And you know what, the Sox arent rebuilding now because one position ( C) where a young player took the position of a longtime veteran. There was a hell of a lot more turnover in 05 than there is now. Both corner outfelders, closer(s), set up, catcher, 4th and 5th starters, both middle infielders, and DH(split time with Carl and Frank). We arent seeing that this season and Lamar is freaking out about a rebuild In general I'm with you. This team is built for 'win now'... has vets...and if the upcoming moves weren't going to also reflect that, we'd have seen some salary dumping instead of the Keppinger contract. We also have no farm system, so 'win now' is kind of the date we brought to the dance and are stuck with. In '05 we always forget that we went into that year with a first ballot HOF player on the roster. Only in retrospect do we see it as a year where spare parts were just whipped into place and they all magically worked. We owe so much to the crap-relievers-turned-wonders in Cotts and Politte. And the whole Jenks thing also. Edited December 27, 2012 by Jose Paniagua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez's Ghost Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) And in the first half, Hermanson. Edited December 27, 2012 by Al Lopez's Ghost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 11:20 AM) In general I'm with you. This team is built for 'win now'... has vets...and if the upcoming moves weren't going to also reflect that, we'd have seen some salary dumping instead of the Keppinger contract. We also have no farm system, so 'win now' is kind of the date we brought to the dance and are stuck with. In '05 we always forget that we went into that year with a first ballot HOF player on the roster. Only in retrospect do we see it as a year where spare parts were just whipped into place and they all magically worked. We owe so much to the crap-relievers-turned-wonders in Cotts and Politte. And the whole Jenks thing also. In general, teams that win the WS have "magical" things that happen. There is no guarantees that if you throw 200 million backs at a bunch of players that you will win it all, as the Yankees have consistently shown since 2000. They have competed, sure, but you know the expectations to win have not been met save for one season(twice if you count 2000 as well). It is such an inexact science anymore. Many teams position themselves to win by throwing money around like nobodies business, but others do so with shoestring budgets and smart player evaluation. I see the Sox as a team that could be a little bit of both, the budget is definitely high enough to be considered a mid to high spending team, and they seem to pluck players here and there that are forgotten by other organizations and plug them in where they succeed(De Aza, Thornton, even AJ back in 05). Hahn needs to start bellying up to the table though, at this point we dont know what direction this team is headed and what the intentions are. And it is driving many people insane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 In general I'm with you. This team is built for 'win now'... has vets...and if the upcoming moves weren't going to also reflect that, we'd have seen some salary dumping instead of the Keppinger contract. We also have no farm system, so 'win now' is kind of the date we brought to the dance and are stuck with. In '05 we always forget that we went into that year with a first ballot HOF player on the roster. Only in retrospect do we see it as a year where spare parts were just whipped into place and they all magically worked. We owe so much to the crap-relievers-turned-wonders in Cotts and Politte. And the whole Jenks thing also. That's my major problem...the team IS built for "win now", but they're not doing enough. Not yet, anyway. I know, it's only December. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 In general, teams that win the WS have "magical" things that happen. There is no guarantees that if you throw 200 million backs at a bunch of players that you will win it all, as the Yankees have consistently shown since 2000. They have competed, sure, but you know the expectations to win have not been met save for one season(twice if you count 2000 as well). It is such an inexact science anymore. Many teams position themselves to win by throwing money around like nobodies business, but others do so with shoestring budgets and smart player evaluation. I see the Sox as a team that could be a little bit of both, the budget is definitely high enough to be considered a mid to high spending team, and they seem to pluck players here and there that are forgotten by other organizations and plug them in where they succeed(De Aza, Thornton, even AJ back in 05). Hahn needs to start bellying up to the table though, at this point we dont know what direction this team is headed and what the intentions are. And it is driving many people insane I agree with you 100%! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 11:37 AM) That's my major problem...the team IS built for "win now", but they're not doing enough. Not yet, anyway. I know, it's only December. Money has been spent. No matter what happened last year, we are still living scarred by those bad Rios and Dunn seasons. And hell, the injury plagued Peavy seasons. Those were the big moves, along with more Paul Konerko seasons. These moves were supposed to be enough, and either they will have to keep being what they were last year, or last year needs to have built up some serious trade value in those guys (or someone). We can't attack this offseason until the offseason happens. It's not just that it's "only" December. As a fan, you shouldn't want us rushing into trades that aren't maximizing the value we can get back. Your impatience is not on my priority list. I want the best team and will look at the team upon the roster's completion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 11:38 AM) I agree with you 100%! If that is true, then you need to RELAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 If that is true, then you need to RELAX You're right, but every time a team makes a deal and it isn't the Sox, I get antsy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 If Rick Hahn shoots from the hip because it's "making people insane", he should be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (YASNY @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 11:48 AM) If Rick Hahn shoots from the hip because it's "making people insane", he should be fired. Arent we past shooting from the hip? at this point he has set up a tripod, calibrated his gun, cleaned his gun, recalibrated his gun, gently set it on the tripod, and took aim, slightly placed his finger on the trigger, and is repeating to himself "wait for it.....wait for it...." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Does everyone realize that the last time that we changed starting catchers we won a world series? I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Philips Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Does everyone realize that the last time that we changed starting catchers we won a world series? I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin. I think one player on this team who has a no trade clause is our 37 year old Konerko. I believe he may be an asset to many teams. He can still play an adequate first base, can hit for power and average. To me he is the face of out whitesox but if he were to agree to a trade that had a 1st baseman a year away could they allow us to pry away another needed piece or lh hitting player that could be used to fill in some of our many holes especially 3rd base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (forrestg @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 02:49 PM) I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin. I think one player on this team who has a no trade clause is our 37 year old Konerko. I believe he may be an asset to many teams. He can still play an adequate first base, can hit for power and average. To me he is the face of out whitesox but if he were to agree to a trade that had a 1st baseman a year away could they allow us to pry away another needed piece or lh hitting player that could be used to fill in some of our many holes especially 3rd base. Like I said yesterday...Paul Konerko is a 37 year old RH power hitter who plays 1b and benefits from some time at DH. He's also expensive, and under contract for exactly 1 year. So, if you want to trade him for the hypothetical magical wonderful prospect, you need a trade partner who needs 1b help, is in the AL, has money to spend, has no one to take over 1b, that Konerko would accept a trade to, who is ready to contend this year, is not too RH heavy themselves, and has some high level prospect they'd be happy to give up in exchange for him. Why do I feel like the reason people suggest trading Konerko without suggesting a trade partner is that they have no idea who he could realistically go to, they just want to be mad at the org. for not doing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Bernstein was saying that Phil Rogers IIRC was linking the Sox with Ben Zobrist.. personally would love this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (EvilJester99 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 04:41 PM) Bernstein was saying that Phil Rogers IIRC was linking the Sox with Ben Zobrist.. personally would love this. Well Phil Rogers isn't exactly the most reliable source. But if this is true, then it's absolutely awesome. Zobrist can play anywhere and is a very good offensive player. You can even slot him in at 3B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 05:42 PM) Well Phil Rogers isn't exactly the most reliable source. But if this is true, then it's absolutely awesome. Zobrist can play anywhere and is a very good offensive player. You can even slot him in at 3B. Except that any trade for Zobrist means you are probably dealing with some good talent evaluators and some pretty tough negotiators... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 04:45 PM) Except that any trade for Zobrist means you are probably dealing with some good talent evaluators and some pretty tough negotiators... Absolutely. I see no real reason for the Rays to trade Zobrist unless they're getting Chris Sale back. Or a trade for Alex Rios in which we eat like 90% of the salary. Edited December 27, 2012 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 04:45 PM) Absolutely. I see no real reason for the Rays to trade Zobrist unless they're getting Chris Sale back. Or a trade for Alex Rios in which we eat like 90% of the salary. Yeah, he is only making $4.5 million next year and has club options in '14 and '15 for $7m and$7.5m, respectively. It certainly wouldn't be a deal for salary relief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 05:45 PM) Except that any trade for Zobrist means you are probably dealing with some good talent evaluators and some pretty tough negotiators... I have no problem with that...we actually have guys in the minor leagues who might be of the quality they'd shoot for in a deal with Zobrist...I'd think the bigger problem is that the place where we have depth that we could sacrifice 2-3 players is starting pitching, and I don't think the Rays would be interested in adding that kind of depth. They could actually have a real use for De Aza, if they considered shuttling one of their OF's to their DH slot. Sanchez might tempt them as well also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (EvilJester99 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 04:41 PM) Bernstein was saying that Phil Rogers IIRC was linking the Sox with Ben Zobrist.. personally would love this. There is nothing in the way Rogers 'linked' Zobrist with Sox that led me to believe it was more than simple speculation, if that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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