In general, I don't like trading players that haven't yet reached arbitration when trying to rebuild/reload

Edited June 23, 201312 yr by Jake

Since you said "shop" and not trade. Yes. You shop everyone, trade is another thing.

I don't think you shop Sale. Also I think when you are shopping a player you are focusing on him because you want a good return. There's no point of shopping Dunn or Paulie for example.

You certainly should have an idea?...

 

If you wanna ship off one of the best young relievers in all of baseball you def should have an idea of what you want in return.

 

Top prospect....Couple top prospects...Veteran...

I don't like to pretend to know a player's trade value because, as fans, nobody knows and we're usually wrong. If you can get 2 position prospects for him, you do it. Closers have a short shelf life. By the time we are in a position to need an elite closer, he might not even be good anymore.

Yes. Everyone should be in play except for Sale

You certainly should have an idea?...

 

If you wanna ship off one of the best young relievers in all of baseball you def should have an idea of what you want in return.

 

Top prospect....Couple top prospects...Veteran...

One top prospect and then one lower-level recent draftee with potential is a reasonable price. If you can't get that, there's zero reason to trade him.

One top prospect and then one lower-level recent draftee with potential is a reasonable price. If you can't get that, there's zero reason to trade him.

 

Tend to agree.

 

 

I don't like to pretend to know a player's trade value because, as fans, nobody knows and we're usually wrong. If you can get 2 position prospects for him, you do it. Closers have a short shelf life. By the time we are in a position to need an elite closer, he might not even be good anymore.

This.

 

We really know nothing. We don't have access to all these pro scouts, front office execs, etc. We had stats, little blurbs, second & third-hand old info, write-ups by people who never even watched the player, sometimes little snippets of video.

 

But if you are in discussions with a team that needs a closer badly, and they offer say a SP prospect in AA who Don Cooper just LOVES, or a position player also very close who the organization is extremely high on & believes (regardless of what is out there in print) is a potential star & is going to see action this year, then you make that deal.

 

You have to trust your personnel. You can't run an organization without risk. If Hahn, KW, Buddy Bell, Laumann, etc. all sign off on a prospect & all believe in that player then you have to have the balls to make that move. Even if it is the Tigers. In fact, I'd kind of like to see the competitive attitude & ballsiness that it would take to potentially hand the Tigers a WS in exchange for a better shot at beating them a couple years down the road. Like, we'll give you this help now, but 2 years & you're f***ed, we're coming for you. I'd like that.

And good God, Soxtalking pro-Reed traders are like internet libertarians, you guys all say yes & s*** but then nobody shows up to vote. Vote YES on a Reed trade. Hahn is probably reading this right now. Why wouldn't he be?

Edited June 23, 201312 yr by The Ultimate Champion

And good God, Soxtalking pro-Reed traders are like internet libertarians, you guys all say yes & s*** but then nobody shows up to vote. Vote YES on a Reed trade. Hahn is probably reading this right now. Why wouldn't he be?

 

Why would he be?

 

Yes or no, no bulls***ty answers like "only if we get a ton more than he's worth" or something. Do you, right now, begin to shop Reed for what you would consider appropriate market value for a pre-arb closer at mid season, yes or no.

 

 

Just like in a court of law there are no yes or no answers

This.

 

We really know nothing. We don't have access to all these pro scouts, front office execs, etc. We had stats, little blurbs, second & third-hand old info, write-ups by people who never even watched the player, sometimes little snippets of video.

 

But if you are in discussions with a team that needs a closer badly, and they offer say a SP prospect in AA who Don Cooper just LOVES, or a position player also very close who the organization is extremely high on & believes (regardless of what is out there in print) is a potential star & is going to see action this year, then you make that deal.

 

You have to trust your personnel. You can't run an organization without risk. If Hahn, KW, Buddy Bell, Laumann, etc. all sign off on a prospect & all believe in that player then you have to have the balls to make that move. Even if it is the Tigers. In fact, I'd kind of like to see the competitive attitude & ballsiness that it would take to potentially hand the Tigers a WS in exchange for a better shot at beating them a couple years down the road. Like, we'll give you this help now, but 2 years & you're f***ed, we're coming for you. I'd like that.

 

 

Of course, I'm not sure trading Delmon Young to the Tigers (helping them greatly) ended up making the Tigers feel the TWINS were "coming for them" exactly.

 

It's got to be a prospect that's going to cost them a pretty price who goes on to become an All-Star.

 

Like John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander. The kind of trade people in DET will be talking about 20-30 years later.

Edited June 23, 201312 yr by caulfield12

Just like in a court of law there are no yes or no answers

I've been a juror though. It's pretty much yes or no from what I could tell.

Of course, I'm not sure trading Delmon Young to the Tigers (helping them greatly) ended up making the Tigers feel the TWINS were "coming for them" exactly.

 

It's got to be a prospect that's going to cost them a pretty price who goes on to become an All-Star.

 

Like John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander. The kind of trade people in DET will be talking about 20-30 years later.

Delmon Poop wasn't getting arb. That was their Liriano to us deal kind of, not really a Reed comparison, and you're right, we would need something back that our FO would consider a special return.

 

And for that special return they could take the whole damn pen, knock yourselves out Tigers. I don't care if they win the WS this year, if it's not us then any of the other 29 teams can do it for all I care. Okay maybe not the Cubs, not because I hate them but because I'd never hear the end of it.

If it means getting a young impact bat I'd go for it. They've got a lot of games left this year to test potential closers out for next year when hopefully White Sox Baseball matters again.

Edited June 23, 201312 yr by 2nd_city_saint787

Since you said "shop" and not trade. Yes. You shop everyone, trade is another thing.

 

My feeling is the opposite.

 

You absolutely do NOT shop Reed around, but if someone makes an offer, you definitely consider it. If you are shopping someone, you are telling people you want to move this piece. If they come asking, the price is likely to be higher.

My feeling is the opposite.

 

You absolutely do NOT shop Reed around, but if someone makes an offer, you definitely consider it. If you are shopping someone, you are telling people you want to move this piece. If they come asking, the price is likely to be higher.

This is spot-on. Crain is going to be the top reliever on the market and he loses all value to us in 1 month. Therefore, Hahn needs to focus on selling him to teams and maximizing his value. We should also have Thornton & Lindstrom available as lower cost options to teams. We don't need to over-saturate the market by adding Reed in the mix right now.

 

If a team calls about Reed then Hahn should tell them he's not available. That's going to tell teams that it's going to cost a f***-ton to get him. Force a team to make an insane offer or otherwise hold on to him for now. He's not going to lose that much value between now and next year's deadline.

only if we get a ton more than he's worth

This is spot-on. Crain is going to be the top reliever on the market and he loses all value to us in 1 month. Therefore, Hahn needs to focus on selling him to teams and maximizing his value. We should also have Thornton & Lindstrom available as lower cost options to teams. We don't need to over-saturate the market by adding Reed in the mix right now.

 

If a team calls about Reed then Hahn should tell them he's not available. That's going to tell teams that it's going to cost a f***-ton to get him. Force a team to make an insane offer or otherwise hold on to him for now. He's not going to lose that much value between now and next year's deadline.

Cue Farmio on closers in non-save situations.

Cue Farmio on closers in non-save situations.

 

Ha, here's his career numbers:

I        Split W L  W-L%   ERA  G GS GF CG SHO SV   IP  H  R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP  BF  WHIP SO/9 SO/BB

    in Sv Situ 1 0 1.000  2.86 61  0 52  0   0 50 56.2 45 19 18  3 21   1 53   2  0  1 237 1.165  8.4  2.52

     in non-Sv 4 2  .667  5.90 39  0 23  0   0  0 39.2 46 26 26  6  7   3 49   1  1  0 170 1.336 11.1  7.00

Cue Farmio on closers in non-save situations.

Why do you think he's suddenly going to lose all this value? He's only 24, he was a highly regarded prospect, and is currently getting the job done.

Why do you think he's suddenly going to lose all this value? He's only 24, he was a highly regarded prospect, and is currently getting the job done.

Heads22 just layeth the smacketh down, did you not seeth that great event?

 

I'm in the kitchen

 

You smell what I'm cookin?

 

IT

 

DOESNT

 

MATTER

 

what his numbers are. They can only go down from here with the rest of this sinking ship. We almost swept the Royals, yesterday was like the highest point of the season since we played the Nats and got our behinds handed to us. Yeah.

 

Trade Reed, that's all I'm saying, you'll get a return that's good, better than he'll be worth. Why is this so controversial? There shoulodn't be any controversy. This shoudl be unanimous. That's all I'm saying.

Ha, I don't even want to trade Reed.

Reed is on pace to be about a 2.5 fWAR player this season, which is exceptional. Last year, that would have been our 3rd best pitcher and 6th overall player. That number has a far better standing on this year's team, so far, because this team is no good so I compare to a fairly successful 2012 squad.

 

Let's not pretend that even a good closer is worthless and that you can always replace them easily.

Heads22 just layeth the smacketh down, did you not seeth that great event?

 

I'm in the kitchen

 

You smell what I'm cookin?

 

IT

 

DOESNT

 

MATTER

 

what his numbers are. They can only go down from here with the rest of this sinking ship. We almost swept the Royals, yesterday was like the highest point of the season since we played the Nats and got our behinds handed to us. Yeah.

 

Trade Reed, that's all I'm saying, you'll get a return that's good, better than he'll be worth. Why is this so controversial? There shoulodn't be any controversy. This shoudl be unanimous. That's all I'm saying.

Laying the smack down? All Heads did was support your statement that Reed sucks in non-closing situations by providing actual data. Unless Reed is not our closer over the next 12 months, that does not suggest Reed will suddenly lose his value.

I don't think you shop Sale. Also I think when you are shopping a player you are focusing on him because you want a good return. There's no point of shopping Dunn or Paulie for example.

So you're saying if someone is interested you say no ? You have to at least listen to offers . You're not the shopper in that case you're the retailer , hopefully not the wholesaler. But if you get an offer you like , you trade. So you can trade even if you don't shop them.