The Bench

[chitownsportsfan]

Bonafacio's career wRC+ is 80, and you said the Sox won't miss a beat with him in the line up.

 

You're a weird dude it's like you read half of what people argue, form your own opinion, and then ignore the rest. You don't seem like a big picture thinker no offense. Not many teams have a replacement for 7 positions in the diamond with a career wRC+ of 80.

 

Yes, with this lineup the Sox can easily carry his bat for a month if someone goes down. Doesn't mean he's Frank Thomas. There is a reason one guy gets 4 million, the other 2 million.

Edited March 16, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[59th street]

He's not versatile. Go check out his stats at 3B. He's Conor level without the bat. Beckham as the 25th man whatever, he's better than Leury.

 

Exactly; he is the 25th man. All the hand wringing over him is a little much.

 

Soto as the back up catcher strikes me as being much more worrisome.

[Dick Allen]

You're a weird dude it's like you read half of what people argue, form your own opinion, and then ignore the rest. You don't seem like a big picture thinker no offense. Not many teams have a replacement for 7 positions in the diamond with a career wRC+ of 80.

 

Yes, with this lineup the Sox can easily carry his bat for a month if someone goes down. Doesn't mean he's Frank Thomas.

So they can't carry Beckham's bat, but can carry Bonafacio's.

 

I am the weird one.

[flavum]

Exactly; he is the 25th man. All the hand wringing over him is a little much.

 

Soto as the back up catcher strikes me as being much more worrisome.

 

It's hard to separate what he'll be with this team from what he was supposed to be as a starter.

 

Everyone is just tired of seeing his sorry ass hit, and him talking about his swing and how he's relaxed now. Whatever, go play for somebody else.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

2015 Whipping Boys:

 

Gordon Beckham

John Danks

For good reason.

 

If this truly is an "all in" season, I'd much rather have Sanchez or Saladino on the bench instead of Beckham. I know they'd personally benefit from playing in Charlotte everyday, especially Sanchez, but team needs come first and both of them are better bench options than Beckham. It's the same reason we need to have Rodon up here as soon as we can without giving up a year of control.

 

We know what Beckham brings, and that's average to slightly above average defense at 2B, average defense at 3B, the ability to play SS in a pinch, and little to no consistent hitting ability.

 

Sanchez and Saldino are better defenders than Beckham and offer more versatility (Sanchez is at worst above average at 2B, passable at SS, and probably can play 3B as well; Saladino is our third best defensive SS behind Alexei and Cleuluis Rondon and can play 2B and 3B in addition to corner OF). As far as batting goes, they can't possibly be any worse than Beckham, and odds are they're better even if their numbers won't blow you away.

 

Beckham is looking like this year's Leury Garcia without the versatility to play the outfield (well, he plays The Outfield but not the position ).

 

Sanchez and Saladino are better, but Beckham will stick around because of his contract and history with the organization.

[chitownsportsfan]

For good reason.

 

If this truly is an "all in" season, I'd much rather have Sanchez or Saladino on the bench instead of Beckham. I know they'd personally benefit from playing in Charlotte everyday, especially Sanchez, but team needs come first and both of them are better bench options than Beckham. It's the same reason we need to have Rodon up here as soon as we can without giving up a year of control.

 

We know what Beckham brings, and that's average to slightly above average defense at 2B, average defense at 3B, the ability to play SS in a pinch, and little to no consistent hitting ability.

 

Sanchez and Saldino are better defenders than Beckham and offer more versatility (Sanchez is at worst above average at 2B, passable at SS, and probably can play 3B as well; Saladino is our third best defensive SS behind Alexei and Cleuluis Rondon and can play 2B and 3B in addition to corner OF). As far as batting goes, they can't possibly be any worse than Beckham, and odds are they're better even if their numbers won't blow you away.

 

Beckham is looking like this year's Leury Garcia without the versatility to play the outfield (well, he plays The Outfield but not the position ).

 

Sanchez and Saladino are better, but Beckham will stick around because of his contract and history with the organization.

 

Great post couldn't have said it any better. If the team is "all in" then keeping Gordo around makes zero sense. Who gives a s*** about Sanchez getting 400 PA in AAA his glove plays better than Gordon's as a utility bench IF.

 

But Gordo has a history here and much like Hinrich he will get the job. Luckily he won't play nearly as much as Hinrich does for the Bulls relatively.

 

_______________________

 

Dick -- for the last time -- it's IN CONTEXT. Christ, you discover wRC+ and quickly are using it out of context to compare two players' relative utility on this roster.

Edited March 16, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[Dick Allen]

For good reason.

 

If this truly is an "all in" season, I'd much rather have Sanchez or Saladino on the bench instead of Beckham. I know they'd personally benefit from playing in Charlotte everyday, especially Sanchez, but team needs come first and both of them are better bench options than Beckham. It's the same reason we need to have Rodon up here as soon as we can without giving up a year of control.

 

We know what Beckham brings, and that's average to slightly above average defense at 2B, average defense at 3B, the ability to play SS in a pinch, and little to no consistent hitting ability.

 

Sanchez and Saldino are better defenders than Beckham and offer more versatility (Sanchez is at worst above average at 2B, passable at SS, and probably can play 3B as well; Saladino is our third best defensive SS behind Alexei and Cleuluis Rondon and can play 2B and 3B in addition to corner OF). As far as batting goes, they can't possibly be any worse than Beckham, and odds are they're better even if their numbers won't blow you away.

 

Beckham is looking like this year's Leury Garcia without the versatility to play the outfield (well, he plays The Outfield but not the position ).

 

 

 

 

 

Sanchez and Saladino are better, but Beckham will stick around because of his contract and history with the organization.

What is it about the 3 errors in 8 games that makes you think Saladino can play the OF?

[NorthSideSox72]

I am not sure I understand the hand-wringing about Soto, unless you think he's got health issues like last season (which is a valid concern). If he's healthy, he's better than Brantly or Kottaras by a long shot on both sides of the ball, in my view.

 

For those concerned about his arm, again assuming he's healthy, consider this. Soto's career CS% is 27% (554 ATT), including 35% the last two years (57 ATT). Brantly? 25% in his career (which is also 2 seasons, 72 ATT). Kottaras? Career 18% (194 ATT). 23% last two years (44 ATT).

 

Just for some perspective.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

What is it about the 3 errors in 8 games that makes you think Saladino can play the OF?

The 3 errors mean nothing in that small a sample, and those were his first games out there anyway. What means more is that he IS just starting at it, and even if he may get good later, he won't be right now.

 

[Señor Ding-Dong]

What is it about the 3 errors in 8 games that makes you think Saladino can play the OF?

Well, he at least has limited experience playing OF which is more than can be said about Beckham. Besides, he's better than Beckham defensively at 2B/SS/3B and almost definitely no worse with the bat. Ditto with Sanchez. That's really all that matters here.

 

If that's the only thing out of my post that you could contest, then I don't think you have a leg to stand on when it comes to this Beckham issue.

[Dick Allen]

Well, he at least has limited experience playing OF which is more than can be said about Beckham. Besides, he's better than Beckham defensively at 2B/SS/3B and almost definitely no worse with the bat. Ditto with Sanchez. That's really all that matters here.

 

If that's the only thing out of my post that you could contest, then I don't think you have a leg to stand on when it comes to this Beckham issue.

I can actually blast a lot of what you wrote. But the Beckham haters don't see the warts on his perceived competition. Bottom line, Rick Hahn can, and that is why Gordon is going to be the back up infielder.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

I can actually blast a lot of what you wrote.

Then do it.

 

But the Beckham haters don't see the warts on his perceived competition. Bottom line, Rick Hahn can, and that is why Gordon is going to be the back up infielder.

They all have warts, but Sanchez and Saladino appear to have less. While Beckham will make the team, if he doesn't produce I wouldn't be surprised to see him let go mid-season in favor of Sanchez or Saladino.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Señor Ding-Dong

[Eminor3rd]

I say Shuck -- get the lefty OF bench bat who may still have some upside.

 

There's room for one of Saladino/Beckham, but not both. So I think Saladino is again sent to the minors.

[southsider2k5]

I say Shuck -- get the lefty OF bench bat who may still have some upside.

 

There's room for one of Saladino/Beckham, but not both. So I think Saladino is again sent to the minors.

 

The team won't want Sanchez or Saladino rotting on the bench. Beckham, no big deal. Those two will probably form the 6-4 down in Charlotte.

[Dick Allen]

Then do it.

 

 

They all have warts, but Sanchez and Saladino appear to have less. While Beckham will make the team, if he doesn't produce I wouldn't be surprised to see him let go mid-season in favor of Sanchez or Saladino.

Fangraphs isn't very high on either:

 

Tyler Saladino, SS Video: Saladino has been a little injury prone with a knee injury in 2013 and Tommy John surgery in August of this year, which was especially disappointing after a breakout offensive year in Triple-A. He’s okay defensively at shortstop but probably fits best as a utility guy long-term and he’s also just okay offensively, with fringy raw power that could allow him to hit double digit homers and solid plate discipline but not a ton of bat speed and a line drive bat path. Saladino should be back at some point later in 2015 and has big league value, but his upside is as a backup.

 

Carlos Sanchez, SS Video: Sanchez almost didn’t qualify for this list after 104 PA in the big leagues at age 22; he’s almost a finished product as a limited upside utility infield type. He’s part of a cramped middle infield at the upper levels; he can play shortstop and second base and is an above average runner, but has little pop and the bat may only be avera

[Eminor3rd]

So they can't carry Beckham's bat, but can carry Bonafacio's.

 

I am the weird one.

 

Come on DA, you're ignoring his entire argument, which is about everything OTHER than the bat.

 

Beckham and Bonifacio are both similar shades of bad at the plate. But only one is a 70 runner, switch hitter, and can play nearly every position on the field competently. No, you don't want him starting for long periods of time, but that's your ideal bench guy.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

Fangraphs isn't very high on either:

 

Tyler Saladino, SS Video: Saladino has been a little injury prone with a knee injury in 2013 and Tommy John surgery in August of this year, which was especially disappointing after a breakout offensive year in Triple-A. He’s okay defensively at shortstop but probably fits best as a utility guy long-term and he’s also just okay offensively, with fringy raw power that could allow him to hit double digit homers and solid plate discipline but not a ton of bat speed and a line drive bat path. Saladino should be back at some point later in 2015 and has big league value, but his upside is as a backup.

 

Carlos Sanchez, SS Video: Sanchez almost didn’t qualify for this list after 104 PA in the big leagues at age 22; he’s almost a finished product as a limited upside utility infield type. He’s part of a cramped middle infield at the upper levels; he can play shortstop and second base and is an above average runner, but has little pop and the bat may only be avera

Is Fangraphs very high on Beckham?

 

Don't get it confused, I'm not saying either of these guys will be great, good, or even average ML players. I'm simply stating that they are/will be better than Beckham, which isn't a high bar to pass.

 

While playing everyday in the minors would be best for their own development, it wouldn't necessarily be in the best interest of the team and that conflicts with the "all in" approach we appear to be taking.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Señor Ding-Dong

[Lillian]

So let me get this straight, we need a good RH bench hitter, but JB Shuck should be that good RH bench hitter even though he is a lefty, because of his 628 Major league at bats over 4 seasons?

 

I understand that it might seem confusing, so let me clarify what I said:

I suggested that, ideally, the bench would include a good hitter vs LH pitchers, because both Gillaspie and LaRoche do not hit them very well.

Many suggested that the Sox would not be willing, or able to make any further additions, and that bench would likely have to consist of guys already on the roster.

I responded by noting that Shuck, although left handed, does hit LH pitching very well, in fact better than RH pitching.

Therefore, if they are not going to add anyone, he may be the best candidate to spell LaRoche at DH vs. LH pitching. If you don't like that plan, please suggest a better one.

 

Moreover, maybe at 35, it wouldn't be a bad idea to give LaRoche some time off. He really has struggled versus lefties, particularly in recent years.

[Dick Allen]

Come on DA, you're ignoring his entire argument, which is about everything OTHER than the bat.

 

Beckham and Bonifacio are both similar shades of bad at the plate. But only one is a 70 runner, switch hitter, and can play nearly every position on the field competently. No, you don't want him starting for long periods of time, but that's your ideal bench guy.

If you saw the post I was refering to, the bat comes to play. Bonifacio will have some incredible offensive streak at some point this season assuming health. But no matter how fast he is, if he isn't on base, it really doesn't help much. An out batting LH counts just as much as an out batting RH. They are both decent bench guys.

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Is Fangraphs very high on Beckham?

 

Don't get it confused, I'm not saying either of these guys will be great, good, or even average ML players. I'm simply stating that they are/will be better than Beckham, which isn't a high bar to pass.

 

While playing everyday in the minors would be best for their own development, it wouldn't necessarily be in the best interest of the team and that conflicts with the "all in" approach we appear to be taking.

It is in the best interest of the team. Sanchez wasn't exactly lights out last year. Saladino needs more AB. He hit well in AAA, but was brutal in AA before that and missed the last part of the season. There is nothing that says they would be better than Beckham at the major league level in 2015 other than Beckham haters say so.

[Dick Allen]

I think technically, Bonifacio will be the 4th OF. Shuck appears the favorite to win a spot, and he wasn't a bad hitter until last season.

 

I am concerned about the comments from Angels announcers implying he isn't exactly stellar with the glove. If you aren't going to have a guy in that spot that isn't a really good OF, I would prefer a guy who can come off the bench and hit one over the fence.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think technically, Bonifacio will be the 4th OF. Shuck appears the favorite to win a spot, and he wasn't a bad hitter until last season.

 

I am concerned about the comments from Angels announcers implying he isn't exactly stellar with the glove. If you aren't going to have a guy in that spot that isn't a really good OF, I would prefer a guy who can come off the bench and hit one over the fence.

I didn't listen to any Angels broadcast, but having watched him play a little in the spring and reading reports from people at the games, I've read nothing but positives on his defense. In fact people have been impressed by his play out there. I honestly haven't seen anything negative on that yet, other than your posts about an Angels broadcast.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Worth noting, if you want a 4th OF who can defend well and occasionally hit one over the fence, Trayce Thompson might be your guy. I think he needs a year in AAA, but he does meet DA's qualifications.

 

[Eminor3rd]

If you saw the post I was refering to, the bat comes to play. Bonifacio will have some incredible offensive streak at some point this season assuming health. But no matter how fast he is, if he isn't on base, it really doesn't help much. An out batting LH counts just as much as an out batting RH. They are both decent bench guys.

 

Certainly, but Bonifacio can be a valuable pinch runner and defensive replacement for everyone on the field, and he can be deployed with the platoon advantage (despite the fact that Beckham actually shows more neutral career splits than Bonifacio, but that won't matter because baseball managers will still only deploy traditional platoons) against any pitcher (except Pat Venditte, obviously).

 

It's just flexibility. Bonifacio can help off the bench in a lot more ways than Beckham (or really almost every bench guy in the MLB) can.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

It is in the best interest of the team.

I disagree. If Beckham suddenly learns how to hit and/or becomes the "elite defender" many people make him out to be, then sure.

 

 

Sanchez wasn't exactly lights out last year.

He played 28 games and had a total of 104 PA. Limited sample size aside, Sanchez had a higher BA and OBP than Beckham did during their time with the Sox last season. He also showed flashes of fantastic defense coupled with the expected rookie mistakes.

 

Beckham hasn't exactly been lights out since his rookie season despite numerous oppurtunities. I don't know what your point is that Sanchez wasn't all that last season; Beckham certainly wasn't.

 

Again, this is all tied to Beckham. I'm not saying Sanchez is a future star or anything, just that he's a better bench option than Beckham given his superior defense at at least two IF spots and the likelihood that he's better than him with the bat as well, even if he's still below league average.

 

Saladino needs more AB. He hit well in AAA, but was brutal in AA before that and missed the last part of the season. There is nothing that says they would be better than Beckham at the major league level in 2015 other than Beckham haters say so.

Beckham being one of the worst everyday players means it's not at all unlikely that a younger guy putting up good numbers in AAA will be better than him in the ML. Again, it's not exactly a high bar to pass.

--

Oh yeah, if we're taking isolated blurbs from publications, then consider this comment on Sanchez from his MLB.com prospect profile:

"Sanchez stands out more on defense, starting with some of the best hands in the Minor Leagues. He has solid arm strength, and his range fits best at second base, where he has been touted as a potential Gold Glover. Sanchez is also a capable shortstop, and he could settle into a utility role if his bat doesn't come around.