**SPOILER THREAD** GAME OF THRONES ** SPOILER THREAD **

[RockRaines]

He had the Arienne + Viserys plan. And the Quentyn plan. And then the plan with Griff. He's pretty active. Not terribly successful, but he's tryin'.

Eventually he was going to align with the Targaryen's, but now who the F knows what the plot is. I assume since Connington doesnt really exist that the Aegon plot wont either.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Eventually he was going to align with the Targaryen's, but now who the F knows what the plot is. I assume since Connington doesnt really exist that the Aegon plot wont either.

 

Yeah I assume that's been dumped.

[Jenksismyhero]

Ellaria makes no sense. In the show, she is introduced as Oberyn's lover. They are not married. She isn't a Martell. In a show where name and claims matter so much, Ellaria having the access she has to Doran makes no sense.

 

She's mother to Doran's nieces and we were led to believe she's basically Oberyn's soul mate and wife if he believed in marriage. They're family. Why isn't that enough? I don't see why that would preclude her from having access.

 

Second, there's no nuance to any of the actions in Dorne. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes have only been given one emotion and that's revenge. They don't have a logical plan other than WAR AND VENGENCE AND POISON!!

 

I think they did a well enough job setting up that Doran was taking his sweet time reacting to two family tragedies and was the thinker/plotter of the family. Ellaria finally got tired of it and took the reigns. She's much more like Oberyn in that way. She exacted revenge in a non-Game of Thrones (i.e., thought out) kind of way. So it's different, doesn't mean it's bad or that it doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Third, last season's Jaime and Bronn bromance adventure led to Bronn and Jaime infiltrating Dorne, by themselves, and getting access to Myrcella and Trystane.

 

Yeah this was silly, although didn't they get caught very quickly? And then Jaime explained who he was? I haven't re-watched last season so I might be wrong.

 

Finally, Ellaria (again, who has no claim to royalty in Dorne) is not even punished for attempting to kill Myrcella in the first place. Instead, she gets unfettered access to Doran.

 

So she did something spontaneous out of revenge, was caught, and told not to do it again. Fits with Doran's character. And I still don't have a problem with access issue.

 

None of this logically makes sense. I agree that the Dorne plot in the books has way too much fat, but a lot of the above is solved if instead of Ellaria as the agitator, the opposition to Doran comes from his daughter. Or a lot of the above is solved if we find out that Doran is playing a long game against the Lannisters.

 

None of the above makes any sense logistically in this world...

 

Merging the characters is probably about limiting how many new characters to introduce. Ellaria is the lover of Oberyn, she can hang around while he's a character so we can get to know her, and then later she can play a part in what happens in Dorne.

Edited April 25, 2016 by JenksIsMyHero

[illinilaw08]

She's mother to Doran's nieces and we were led to believe she's basically Oberyn's soul mate and wife if he believed in marriage. They're family. Why isn't that enough? I don't see why that would preclude her from having access.

 

I think they did a well enough job setting up that Doran was taking his sweet time reacting to two family tragedies and was the thinker/plotter of the family. Ellaria finally got tired of it and took the reigns. She's much more like Oberyn in that way. She exacted revenge in a non-Game of Thrones (i.e., thought out) kind of way. So it's different, doesn't mean it's bad or that it doesn't make any sense.

 

So she did something spontaneous out of revenge, was caught, and told not to do it again. Fits with Doran's character. And I still don't have a problem with access issue.

 

How is the logical response to: you tried to kill Myrcella Baratheon and start a war with the Lannsiters, but you promised not to do it again, so no punishment, a logical response that makes sense in this show. How does that fit with Doran's character when Doran has had such very limited amounts of screen time. The only thing they really set up about Doran was that he was trying to keep Dorne out of war. So if that's the only motivation we've gotten from Doran, why on Earth would he keep Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in positions where they could try to force Dorne into war?

 

Second, how is the logical response to "we're mad at the Lannisters because they killed and raped Elia Martell many, many years ago, and Oberyn died in combat that he agreed to fight in" to turn around and then kill two more family members? We're mad because our family members died. So we're going to kill more family members so someone will let us get our revenge. Doesn't logically follow.

 

No motivation or character trait has been given to Ellaria or the Sand Snakes other than revenge. I couldn't even tell you which Sand Snake is which in the show because they are so indistinguishable from one another...

 

 

 

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

I couldn't even tell you which Sand Snake is which in the show because they are so indistinguishable from one another...

 

Spearia Sand is the one with the spear. Her main personality traits are being angry and b****y.

Whippy Sand is the one with the whip. Her main personality traits are being angry and b****y.

Daggara Sand is the one with the daggers. Her main personality traits are being angry and b****y.

 

DUH

[Jenksismyhero]

How is the logical response to: you tried to kill Myrcella Baratheon and start a war with the Lannsiters, but you promised not to do it again, so no punishment, a logical response that makes sense in this show. How does that fit with Doran's character when Doran has had such very limited amounts of screen time. The only thing they really set up about Doran was that he was trying to keep Dorne out of war. So if that's the only motivation we've gotten from Doran, why on Earth would he keep Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in positions where they could try to force Dorne into war?

 

Wait, so your problem is that someone made a mistake in judgment on this show? That Doran didn't appropriately assess the risk that Ellaria posed? Come on... Again, i'm not saying this is a criticism-proof portion of the show, but you're making it sound much worse than it is.

 

 

Second, how is the logical response to "we're mad at the Lannisters because they killed and raped Elia Martell many, many years ago, and Oberyn died in combat that he agreed to fight in" to turn around and then kill two more family members? We're mad because our family members died. So we're going to kill more family members so someone will let us get our revenge. Doesn't logically follow.

 

Because she blames Doran for Oberyn's death. If Doran hadn't been weak in responding to the Lannisters years ago for Elia's death, Oberyn would not have been forced to do it himself. She's blind with rage over his death. Doran threatened to kill her if she tried anything like that again, she saw his weakness and made a move. What doesn't make sense about that?

 

No motivation or character trait has been given to Ellaria or the Sand Snakes other than revenge. I couldn't even tell you which Sand Snake is which in the show because they are so indistinguishable from one another...

 

I mean, that's fair, but that's what you get for introducing Dorne so late in the game. But I think for what they've set up thus far - she's pissed that her soul mate died because of inaction, so she took action - was set up just fine and makes sense logically.

Edited April 25, 2016 by JenksIsMyHero

[Jenksismyhero]

Spearia Sand is the one with the spear. Her main personality traits are being angry and b****y.

Whippy Sand is the one with the whip. Her main personality traits are being angry and b****y.

Daggara Sand is the one with the daggers. Her main personality traits are being angry and b****y.

 

DUH

 

One showed her boobs and likes Bronn. There's a difference!

Edited April 25, 2016 by JenksIsMyHero

[ZoomSlowik]

If you want to cut characters, the easiest thing would be to keep Arriane and lose the Sandsnakes. You can still have your poor attempt at creating a sexy badass, but then you have a real heir after you kill Doran.

[TaylorStSox]

GOT has hit that point where it's en vogue to criticize every aspect. The only show I remember being immune to that criticism was The Wire, though people complained about how boring certain seasons were.

 

Book Dorne is a boring mess. Show Dorne is a campy mess. However, killing Doran was the first time my jaw dropped while watching the show. I didn't see that coming.

 

I loved last night's episode.

[TaylorStSox]

If you want to cut characters, the easiest thing would be to keep Arriane and lose the Sandsnakes. You can still have your poor attempt at creating a sexy badass, but then you have a real heir after you kill Doran.

The audience wanted vengeance for Obyren. The Sand Snakes are providing that. You can't have a slow play for vengeance with every family. The Starks' long-play is lol'bad in the books.

 

*edit*

The Martell's are also lol'bad in the books. I can't think of a more useless POV character than Quentyn. I've read all the books twice, and I still don't remember much about Dorne because it's absolutely boring as s***.

Edited April 25, 2016 by TaylorStSox

[ZoomSlowik]

The audience wanted vengeance for Obyren. The Sand Snakes are providing that. You can't have a slow play for vengeance with every family. The Starks' long-play is lol'bad in the books.

I think the audience wants good TV, not awful dialogue and a mess of a plot. Besides, you can still do that with Arriane. I doubt I could pick Whippy out of a lineup, the only reason I know who Obarra is because she says her name so much, and the only reason I know Tyene is boobs.

 

The whole story is a slow play, that's basically what books 4 and 5 are.

 

Edit- Besides, I'm not confident Dorne is going to be any more productive a storyline than most of the stuff in the series. Look at what happened to Stannis, and he got way more screen time even outside of Blackwater and the battle at the wall.

Edited April 25, 2016 by ZoomSlowik

[CrimsonWeltall]

The audience wanted vengeance for Obyren. The Sand Snakes are providing that.

 

They're not providing that at all. They've killed 3 people Oberyn would never have wanted killed. They've betrayed Oberyn.

 

Moreover, Oberyn's death wasn't an injustice. He entered a legal combat and lost. So how do you avenge him? Kill the Mountain? Sorry, he's dead. Kill Tywin, who was largely responsible for the original grudge? Sorry, he's dead. Lannisters in general? That's silly.

 

I don't think anyone watching GoT was clamoring for the deaths of Doran, Trystane, or Myrcella, nor do they want to see characters like Cersei, Jaime, and Tommen eat it. If anything, most viewers want the Sand Snakes to die so they don't have to be on screen anymore.

[bigruss]

Woah, people don't want to see Cersei punished? Yea she has her moments of pity but damn she's up on the list for most people on who they'd like to see revenge on.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Woah, people don't want to see Cersei punished? Yea she has her moments of pity but damn she's up on the list for most people on who they'd like to see revenge on.

 

Cersei JUST had a round of comeuppance.

 

And while, yes, she is an antagonist and people wish bad things on her, I think viewers LIKE her on the show. She's interesting, and entertaining. I definitely don't want to see her knocked off.

[TaylorStSox]

They're not providing that at all. They've killed 3 people Oberyn would never have wanted killed. They've betrayed Oberyn.

 

Moreover, Oberyn's death wasn't an injustice. He entered a legal combat and lost. So how do you avenge him? Kill the Mountain? Sorry, he's dead. Kill Tywin, who was largely responsible for the original grudge? Sorry, he's dead. Lannisters in general? That's silly.

 

I don't think anyone watching GoT was clamoring for the deaths of Doran, Trystane, or Myrcella, nor do they want to see characters like Cersei, Jaime, and Tommen eat it. If anything, most viewers want the Sand Snakes to die so they don't have to be on screen anymore.

 

Of course Oberyn wanted to kill all the Lannisters. That's why he was in King's Landing in the first place. He would have never killed Doran though. Why would he have cared about legal combat? He's avenging 2 babies that were raped and stomped to death. That's slightly different than poisoning a teenager.

 

 

Books 4 and 5 aren't a slow play. They're a bad, meandering prose from a guy trying to milk the cow for all it's worth.

 

I wish they would have cut Dorne altogether, but Oberyn was too good a character to skip. Killing Doran and omitting Aegon and Quentyn have been some of the best decisions they've made imo.

[bmags]

Ellaria makes no sense. In the show, she is introduced as Oberyn's lover. They are not married. She isn't a Martell. In a show where name and claims matter so much, Ellaria having the access she has to Doran makes no sense.

 

Second, there's no nuance to any of the actions in Dorne. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes have only been given one emotion and that's revenge. They don't have a logical plan other than WAR AND VENGENCE AND POISON!!

 

Third, last season's Jaime and Bronn bromance adventure led to Bronn and Jaime infiltrating Dorne, by themselves, and getting access to Myrcella and Trystane.

 

Finally, Ellaria (again, who has no claim to royalty in Dorne) is not even punished for attempting to kill Myrcella in the first place. Instead, she gets unfettered access to Doran.

 

None of this logically makes sense. I agree that the Dorne plot in the books has way too much fat, but a lot of the above is solved if instead of Ellaria as the agitator, the opposition to Doran comes from his daughter. Or a lot of the above is solved if we find out that Doran is playing a long game against the Lannisters.

 

None of the above makes any sense logistically in this world...

 

I agree with all of this. Dorne seems to be an inconvenience to the showwriters and they countered that with too much convenience in its plot.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Of course Oberyn wanted to kill all the Lannisters. That's why he was in King's Landing in the first place. He would have never killed Doran though. Why would he have cared about legal combat? He's avenging 2 babies that were raped and stomped to death. That's slightly different than poisoning a teenager.

 

Oberyn wanted to kill the people responsible for the deaths of Elia and her infant. Clegane, Lorch, Tywin. Not every person who happened to have the last name Lannister. Doran, who was on the same vengeance track as Oberyn (albeit as 'the grass', rather than 'the viper') was appalled to learn that Myrcella was murdered. Oberyn would have been too. Doran and Trystane even more so.

 

Killing an innocent woman and her child seems pretty similar to killing an innocent girl, ethically.

 

I brought up the legal combat because Oberyn knew what he was getting into. It's not like someone stabbed him in the back. Dude lost a fight he agreed to take part in. Shouldn't have been showing off so much.

 

Edit: I should add that Oberyn's other big goal was getting the Mountain to admit to his crimes.

Edited April 25, 2016 by CrimsonWeltall

[RockRaines]

I think the audience wants good TV, not awful dialogue and a mess of a plot. Besides, you can still do that with Arriane. I doubt I could pick Whippy out of a lineup, the only reason I know who Obarra is because she says her name so much, and the only reason I know Tyene is boobs.

 

The whole story is a slow play, that's basically what books 4 and 5 are.

 

Edit- Besides, I'm not confident Dorne is going to be any more productive a storyline than most of the stuff in the series. Look at what happened to Stannis, and he got way more screen time even outside of Blackwater and the battle at the wall.

And i still dont get why they killed Stannis off like they did.

[CrimsonWeltall]

And i still dont get why they killed Stannis off like they did.

 

He ran out of stuff to do. And he ain't Azor Ahai.

[ZoomSlowik]

And i still dont get why they killed Stannis off like they did.

At this point, it seems like they kill marginally to somewhat important characters when they run out of interesting ideas. Off the top of my head, Jojen, Barristan, Hizdar, Myrcella, Stannis and Doran are dead in the show/alive in the books (not counting Shireen because that seems like a major planned plot point). I think the full list is like 20 names.

 

Edit- I know some of them will die anyways in the books, but George doesn't seem like the type to throw away potential plots in the same manner. That's part of why large chunks of Feast and Dance are a mess and why he has a lot of tying in to do, but I would be surprised if he doesn't do it more coherently (assuming he ever finishes). Please note that last part, I'm not saying he is infallible but I have more faith in him than the show writers.

Edited April 25, 2016 by ZoomSlowik

[illinilaw08]

At this point, it seems like they kill marginally to somewhat important characters when they run out of interesting ideas. Off the top of my head, Jojen, Barristan, Hizdar, Myrcella, Stannis and Doran are dead in the show/alive in the books (not counting Shireen because that seems like a major planned plot point). I think the full list is like 20 names.

 

I don't really have an issue with them killing off Stannis generally. He was going to war with the Boltons, and it's reasonable that battle would end with Stannis' death. What I had a problem with was how Stannis went out with a whimper. The "battle" was just a slaughter on an open field.

 

I'm all for them bringing plots together. Martin had to split Books 4 and 5 because he had so many separate threads going. In an hour show, it's tough to do justice to 13 different plots...

[ZoomSlowik]

I don't really have an issue with them killing off Stannis generally. He was going to war with the Boltons, and it's reasonable that battle would end with Stannis' death. What I had a problem with was how Stannis went out with a whimper. The "battle" was just a slaughter on an open field.

 

I'm all for them bringing plots together. Martin had to split Books 4 and 5 because he had so many separate threads going. In an hour show, it's tough to do justice to 13 different plots...

 

Sort of covered in the edit, but I could see Stannis getting trampled in the battle because of his misplaced faith and stubbornness. The issue for me is Brienne somehow finding him on the brink of death and then the late cutaway. That seems too contrived for ASOIAF, we never neatly get things working out like that.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I don't really have an issue with them killing off Stannis generally. He was going to war with the Boltons, and it's reasonable that battle would end with Stannis' death. What I had a problem with was how Stannis went out with a whimper. The "battle" was just a slaughter on an open field.

 

I'm all for them bringing plots together. Martin had to split Books 4 and 5 because he had so many separate threads going. In an hour show, it's tough to do justice to 13 different plots...

 

His death was weak, but he had to go. We've got limited hours left, gotta cut down the field of contenders.

 

Melisandre predictions? Has a new vision that Jon is THE ONE? Sacrifices herself to rez Jon? Sacrifices someone else to rez Jon? Too depressed to do anything?

[bigruss]

His death was weak, but he had to go. We've got limited hours left, gotta cut down the field of contenders.

 

Melisandre predictions? Has a new vision that Jon is THE ONE? Sacrifices herself to rez Jon? Sacrifices someone else to rez Jon? Too depressed to do anything?

I think her taking the necklace off is her faith wavering and kind of letting herself go (aka let nature kill her). However, some sign, most likely fire related, will have her perform the last kiss ritual and it reserructs Jon.

[Kyyle23]

I dont think she sacrifices herself at all, and I do think she resurrects him. I dont see why sacrificing herself is necessary, back when Arya met those people in the forest and a guy was resurrected in front of her(pardon me for forgetting their names, its been a while), was someone sacrificed? I thought I remember the priest(or the guy who performed the resurrection) was fine, but the guy who was resurrected said that every time it happens, there is a little more of something missing of himself

 

I probably have it all wrong, lol. Feel free to correct me

 

edit: Berric Dondarrion