Irreconcilable Differences

[caulfield12]

Let me ask this question.

 

If negative (realistic/pragmatic) or pessimistic/dark cloud fans bother people so much. why not support a team that historically is loyal/optimistic and whose fans you don't have to argue with about their respective versions of fandom? (Like the Cardinals, for example).

 

I'm assuming there have been thousands of Doubting Thomas White Sox fans since the Black Sox Scandal...or after 1994 and the White Flag Trade.

 

Is it worth the time, effort and energy of convincing all of them to be hopeful and optimistic in the face of all evidence to the contrary?

 

 

Do you believe that Fathom, who might be one of the most loyal White Sox fans there is here....is less of a fan because he's often pessimistic or mentions the Cubs?

 

Doesn't he represent the quintessential White Sox fan of the last 50-60 years....? If not, who does?

 

(Maybe Billy Pierce, Moose Skowron or Minnie Minoso.)

 

 

 

And, besides the "b****ing about everyone b****ing/moaning/whining/complaining," what constructive answers have been provided to improve matters....that will turn the dark clouds into silver linings?

Edited May 28, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Let me ask this question.

 

If negative (realistic/pragmatic) or pessimistic/dark cloud fans bother people so much. why not support a team that historically is loyal/optimistic and whose fans you don't have to argue with about their respective versions of fandom? (Like the Cardinals, for example).

 

I'm assuming there have been thousands of Doubting Thomas White Sox fans since the Black Sox Scandal...or after 1994 and the White Flag Trade.

 

Is it worth the time, effort and energy of convincing all of them to be hopeful and optimistic in the face of all evidence to the contrary?

 

 

Do you believe that Fathom, who might be one of the most loyal White Sox fans there is here....is less of a fan because he's often pessimistic or mentions the Cubs?

 

Doesn't he represent the quintessential White Sox fan of the last 50-60 years....? If not, who does?

 

(Maybe Billy Pierce, Moose Skowron or Minnie Minoso.)

 

 

 

And, besides the "b****ing about everyone b****ing/moaning/whining/complaining," what constructive answers have been provided to improve matters....that will turn the dark clouds into silver linings?

 

So you refuse to answer why you yourself questioned the 17k attendance Sale vs. Kluber. No one is really questioning fandom. If you only attend games when the team is a winner, it is a bandwagon fan. But when you don't show up when they do have success, it makes sustaining success much more difficult, because when teams win, their payroll jumps.

 

Amd just for the record, the 75 win Mike Quade led 2010 Cubs drew 105,000 more fans than the White Sox did in their highest attended season.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Dick Allen

[LDF]

So you refuse to answer why you yourself questioned the 17k attendance Sale vs. Kluber. No one is really questioning fandom. If you only attend games when the team is a winner, it is a bandwagon fan. But when you don't show up when they do have success, it makes sustaining success much more difficult, because when teams win, their payroll jumps.

 

Amd just for the record, the 75 win Mike Quade led 2010 Cubs drew 105,000 more fans than the White Sox did in their highest attended season.

 

i just came back. i am a little confuse, are you questioning why more fans did not show up for Sale's game??

 

am i reading this right?

[Dick Allen]

i just came back. i am a little confuse, are you questioning why more fans did not show up for Sale's game??

 

am i reading this right?

Caulfield is the only person on this site that questioned the attendance that night.

[LDF]

Caulfield is the only person on this site that questioned the attendance that night.

 

ok that is kool.

 

but for all points of view on attendances. imho, the sox are lucky to be getting what they are getting, based on how they came out of the gate, this season.

 

but i will this sing the praises of hitters on this team. they will turn it around. i have faith in that.

 

for now, i will be eating crow for my 90 game win prediction, but oh well. pass the ketchup.

Edited May 28, 2015 by LDF

[caulfield12]

So you refuse to answer why you yourself questioned the 17k attendance Sale vs. Kluber. No one is really questioning fandom. If you only attend games when the team is a winner, it is a bandwagon fan. But when you don't show up when they do have success, it makes sustaining success much more difficult, because when teams win, their payroll jumps.

 

Amd just for the record, the 75 win Mike Quade led 2010 Cubs drew 105,000 more fans than the White Sox did in their highest attended season.

 

 

Because the answer drags the conversation back into the same loop.

 

Fan disappointment with the beginning of the season (especially performance against AL Central rivals KC and Minnesota)...the fact that Kluber was pitching poorly until the previous start and had an ERA of 4+ previous to that...that Kluber's name recognition is basically zero outside of hard-core baseball fans, and the fact that nobody really cares about the "rivalry" with the Indians compared to playing DET, Minnesota or even the Royals in recent years.

 

Marketing. Monday night. So-so weather (even when the weather's actually nice at that time of the year, everyone expects it will be poor when looking at the schedule of games to attend).

 

 

 

 

 

 

White Sox vice president/chief marketing officer Brooks Boyer said season ticket sales are up "double digits" after a relatively strong 2012 season (proving that fans WANTED to support the "almost winning" team), and added the Sox will see those familiar early season struggles. But the Sox don't price tickets to fill the house, Boyer said, but rather a more of a complicated formula to figure out how the team can charge enough to have a competitive payroll. Still, prices had to drop after six straight seasons of declining attendance.

 

"Overall, our pricing philosophy shift has seemed to have made an impact, and the way our team played last year has had a positive impact," Boyer said. "We're up in season tickets across the board, full and split-season. Some has to do with pricing, complemented with people who now know who Robin (Ventura) is, how he manages. Adam Dunn had a very good year and so did Jake Peavy and Alex Rios, all coming off disappointing 2011 seasons. Everyone wanted to bail on us last year, and the way we played took our fanbase by surprise."

 

Both teams, though, have seen serious attendance decreases since setting franchise records in recent years. And both now use an outside ticket consultant to help set prices. The Cubs use Natural Selection, while the Sox, which use dynamic ticket pricing, get help from Qcue.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/...r-ticket-prices

 

 

The FCI (Fan Cost Index) also measures the average cost to take a family of four to a game. The Cubs are third at $298.20, while the Sox are eighth at $231.18. The MLB average is $210.46.

 

 

Or we can look as recently as 2014...where the ratings reflecting the White Sox "winning" even though it was actually the Jose Abreu/Chris Sale Show more than a competitive team in the end

 

Both the Cubs' and White Sox's local cable ratings at the All-Star break are in the bottom five of the 29 U.S.-based teams, according to a Sports Business Journal study of Nielsen ratings for regional sports networks.

 

The last-place Cubs rank No. 25 with a 1.48 average rating, that's down 7 percent from this point last season and 8 percent overall, according to information provided to ESPN Chicago by Sports Business Journal writer John Ourand.

 

Right now, the Sox, essentially tied with last-place Minnesota in the AL Central, have the fourth-highest gain in baseball, up 16 percent from this point last season and 24 percent from last year's final numbers. Unfortunately, that's only good enough for a 1.39 rating, and only two teams are lower. The two teams' household averages are stunningly close, 52,000 for the Cubs and 49,000 for the White Sox, Nos. 21 and 22, respectively, in baseball.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/jon-greenb...wn-few-watching

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Caulfield is the only person on this site that questioned the attendance that night.

 

No, I'm sure the entire marketing department at 35th and Shields did as well.

[LDF]

No, I'm sure the entire marketing department at 35th and Shields did as well.

 

well the sox marketing needs a kick in the arse to get them on the ball.

[caulfield12]

NM triple post, bad internet/vpn/proxy here in China

Edited May 28, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

This same exact story could have been written about the White Sox in the last two months, if you just changed the names around.

 

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/col...-sale/28032079/

 

 

But (Bryan) Price's point is well taken. He's searching for his team's spine.

 

"I think our preparation is excellent. I don't think there's a guy who comes to the ballpark that hasn't prepared to play. But we need to find a fight to this ballclub. We do. I love our players. Sometimes I wonder where our fight is.''

 

In March, Joey Votto assured us there was a clubhouse full of leaders on his team. Where are they now? If ever a team needed players standing tall and showing the way, this one does. "We just haven't got to the point where that message of aggression has paid any real dividends,'' Price said.

 

Price said he'd get confrontational, if he thought it would help. "If that was something I felt was a difference maker, the intimidation card, I'd use it,'' he said. "I've yelled at our guys before. Confrontation is not an issue for me.'' He said he has showed faith in players who thudded early. "Jay (Bruce). "Marlon (Byrd). I could have sat each guy for a week and sent the subliminal message, 'Look, I need more from you.' That wasn't the most productive way. I put credibility into guys who have been there and done that. That onus of performance is on them.''

Edited May 28, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

http://sports.bovada.lv/sports-betting/baseball-futures.jsp

 

At least the Las Vegas gamblers still have us ahead of 9 teams...they're OPTIMISTIC. So there's that.

Edited May 28, 2015 by caulfield12

[Thad Bosley]

It is the schtick. Then there is reality.

 

Reality dictates that a team understands the nature of its fanbase and try to cater to them to some extent. It is the entire reason we have never seen a completely sell of like the Cubs can do because of their fan loyalty. It is why the team was looking for near major league ready talent in most of its deals a few years back, instead of waiting for a process that could take half of a decade or more. Even if it failed, a slow erosion of fans being better than the bandwagon all emptying at once, and stupid stuff like BLACK FLAG coming back into vogue with the more meatball portion of the population. It is why as soon as the rebuild even started to look like it was turning a corner, the team went out and bought a bunch of major leaguers at market prices in an attempt to bring back some of the bandwagon.

 

If Sox fans want to paint themselves as smart, they have to be able to take an honest look at the whole picture, and understand all of the pieces of the puzzle, not just the parts that generate calls on the Score. If you are ignoring parts of the story to paint your narrative, you aren't half as smart as you think.

 

But no, let's go ahead and resume the whining about what a horrible 35 years it has been, and people can't take the horrible pain anymore. WHY ME? WHY DOES OWNERSHIP DO THIS TO ME? I AM ENTITLED TO BETTER!

Reality.

 

35 years, five postseason appearances. Only four of the 25 non-expansion teams with fewer appearances. Outside of 2005, a combined four postseason victories in the other four appearances in '83, '93, '00, and '08.

 

Reality.

 

One division title, one postseason victory in the entire decade since '05. 212 losses since April of '13.

 

Reality.

 

Cumulative effect of Jerry Reinsdorf and his management team's failure to field something even remotely resembling a winning product: a big market team practically last in attendance and TV ratings in all of baseball as we speak.

 

Schtick.

 

All of this is somehow the fans' fault. GMAFB.

[Dick Allen]

Reality.

 

35 years, five postseason appearances. Only four of the 25 non-expansion teams with fewer appearances. Outside of 2005, a combined four postseason victories in the other four appearances in '83, '93, '00, and '08.

 

Reality.

 

One division title, one postseason victory in the entire decade since '05. 212 losses since April of '13.

 

Reality.

 

Cumulative effect of Jerry Reinsdorf and his management team's failure to field something even remotely resembling a winning product: a big market team practically last in attendance and TV ratings in all of baseball as we speak.

 

Schtick.

 

All of this is somehow the fans' fault. GMAFB.

Instead of chronic complaining why not go "support" another team. One that meets your standards. You have other options. You wouldn't keep going to a restaurant you thought sucked and didn't enjoy for 35 years. You don't owe the White Sox anything. And they don't owe you anything.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Let me ask this question.

 

If negative (realistic/pragmatic) or pessimistic/dark cloud fans bother people so much. why not support a team that historically is loyal/optimistic and whose fans you don't have to argue with about their respective versions of fandom? (Like the Cardinals, for example).

 

I'm assuming there have been thousands of Doubting Thomas White Sox fans since the Black Sox Scandal...or after 1994 and the White Flag Trade.

 

Is it worth the time, effort and energy of convincing all of them to be hopeful and optimistic in the face of all evidence to the contrary?

 

 

Do you believe that Fathom, who might be one of the most loyal White Sox fans there is here....is less of a fan because he's often pessimistic or mentions the Cubs?

 

Doesn't he represent the quintessential White Sox fan of the last 50-60 years....? If not, who does?

 

(Maybe Billy Pierce, Moose Skowron or Minnie Minoso.)

 

 

 

And, besides the "b****ing about everyone b****ing/moaning/whining/complaining," what constructive answers have been provided to improve matters....that will turn the dark clouds into silver linings?

 

That's the thing that people are getting wrong. It doesn't bother me. It isn't going to change who I root for. People are going to do what people are going to do, and there really isn't much you can change about that.

 

But, that doesn't mean you can ignore reality if you are looking at ways to make things better. Because of the sort of fan base we have, our options for rebuilding are limited. That isn't the "company line" or any other thing that is being said by people who can't actually refute any of what I am saying so they have resorted to name calling. That is reality.

 

It is also worth mentioning that the sense of worth right here is over inflated. Constructive answers? Does anyone really think what they say here actually makes a difference to the franchise as a whole? I mean I love this place and all, but if Rick and Kenny are reading Soxtalk for answers, we are all screwed.

[gatnom]

That's the thing that people are getting wrong. It doesn't bother me. It isn't going to change who I root for. People are going to do what people are going to do, and there really isn't much you can change about that.

 

But, that doesn't mean you can ignore reality if you are looking at ways to make things better. Because of the sort of fan base we have, our options for rebuilding are limited. That isn't the "company line" or any other thing that is being said by people who can't actually refute any of what I am saying so they have resorted to name calling. That is reality.

 

It is also worth mentioning that the sense of worth right here is over inflated. Constructive answers? Does anyone really think what they say here actually makes a difference to the franchise as a whole? I mean I love this place and all, but if Rick and Kenny are reading Soxtalk for answers, we are all screwed.

 

Are our options limited? I mean, we've gone through a whole lot of losing in the past few years, but the team remains profitable. For years, I've read on this site that we need to rebuild on the fly or else we will lose the fan base. Looks like we lost it regardless.

 

 

[LDF]

Are our options limited? I mean, we've gone through a whole lot of losing in the past few years, but the team remains profitable. For years, I've read on this site that we need to rebuild on the fly or else we will lose the fan base. Looks like we lost it regardless.

 

it depends on how you see it. cup is what half full or half empty.

 

the sox did not loose their die hard fans, but it would be worst if they did a complete overall.

[Eminor3rd]

Sometimes I feel like I'm witnessing a different reality than half of this board.

 

We're in year TWO (2)(!) of the Rick Hahn rebuild, the farm system is stronger than it's been in ten years, we've got a relatively clean set of financial commitments going forward despite a huge bump in payroll, attendance is up, and the White Sox continue to increase their revenues every single year. How can an argument be made that the fans or city of Chicago is holding the team back? Is the team being held back at all? By what?

[gatnom]

Sometimes I feel like I'm witnessing a different reality than half of this board.

 

We're in year TWO (2)(!) of the Rick Hahn rebuild, the farm system is stronger than it's been in ten years, we've got a relatively clean set of financial commitments going forward despite a huge bump in payroll, attendance is up, and the White Sox continue to increase their revenues every single year. How can an argument be made that the fans or city of Chicago is holding the team back? Is the team being held back at all? By what?

 

I'd say they're being held back by their decisions prior to the Hahn era, but they seem to be moving in the right path nowadays. Now if only they could develop some positional prospects...

 

 

[LDF]

Sometimes I feel like I'm witnessing a different reality than half of this board.

 

We're in year TWO (2)(!) of the Rick Hahn rebuild, the farm system is stronger than it's been in ten years, we've got a relatively clean set of financial commitments going forward despite a huge bump in payroll, attendance is up, and the White Sox continue to increase their revenues every single year. How can an argument be made that the fans or city of Chicago is holding the team back? Is the team being held back at all? By what?

 

a voice of reasoning and well played.

 

nice.

[LDF]

I'd say they're being held back by their decisions prior to the Hahn era, but they seem to be moving in the right path nowadays. Now if only they could develop some positional prospects...

 

i agree, with this and this bring to mind, something just does not fit. not with what you wrote. but to me, it feels like a shift is going on in the front office. i can't put my finger on it. it goes back to when KW was looking at the GM post in Tor.

 

i think Hahn is slowly winning in that dept. we as fans has to suffer with this. but this team is so freaking close to being something special. they are stupid to burn its fan base.