This is silly. Nobody is saying that wins aren't important. They're obviously the point of the game. Pitcher wins, on the other hand, are not the same thing as wins, and are not terribly important. The rule is convoluted and arbitrary.

Right, the only win that matters is a team win. Period.

 

A better stat is "The White Sox are __ and __ when Chris Sale starts", but that's not the same as a pitching win. Pitching wins don't matter.

This is silly. Nobody is saying that wins aren't important. They're obviously the point of the game. Pitcher wins, on the other hand, are not the same thing as wins, and are not terribly important. The rule is convoluted and arbitrary.

 

Which tosses all the intangibles out the window. There is no such thing as momentum, confidence, etc. We play the games with humans, not computer models. Humans bring emotion and character to whatever they do. Do the players get up just a little more knowing who is on the mound? Do they feel like they owe it to some pitchers? While I agree wins are not THE best measure of a pitcher, but spend some time coaching and you see how much emotion can change things.

Which tosses all the intangibles out the window. There is no such thing as momentum, confidence, etc. We play the games with humans, not computer models. Humans bring emotion and character to whatever they do. Do the players get up just a little more knowing who is on the mound? Do they feel like they owe it to some pitchers? While I agree wins are not THE best measure of a pitcher, but spend some time coaching and you see how much emotion can change things.

What does a pitching win measure well? Nothing. Human or otherwise, a pitching win is meaningless.

How would you explain a pitcher with more wins than another pitcher on the same team with worst stats?

 

Do you factor in team chemistry or motivation in judging a team?

And I'm not saying that wins is some major factor and has huge significance. I think it is one piece of information that should be fit in when evaluating a pitcher. Comparing his win total to other pitchers on his staff with their stats may reveal subjective information. How much you want to value motivation, desire, etc is up to you. But totally dismissing wins dismisses how well a player can get his team playing behind and for him. Unlike most other sports, baseball is the only sport where wins are tracked so publicly for an individual player. Football comes kind of close, but nothing like baseball.

 

Again, it isn't a huge factor, but I believe it shouldn't be overlooked or automatically dismissed.

14 wins in 17 starts. 16 left.

 

23-25 seems probable.

They still matter to me. Last I looked the teams with the most wins in the regular season advance to the postseason and the team with the most wins in the post-season wins the series. While I agree wins aren't the #1 factor, I actually find it to be an underrated stat, as I view it as being a pitcher who goes deeper into games tends to give themselves more opportunities to win games, etc (controls more of their destiny and there is value of that to an individual). That isn't to say it is the only factor but I think too easily it is ignored because someone's WAR is better.

Hey, someone who agrees with me or are you just mocking me.

I know wins don't matter, but damn, 14-2 looks pretty good

And I'm not saying that wins is some major factor and has huge significance. I think it is one piece of information that should be fit in when evaluating a pitcher. Comparing his win total to other pitchers on his staff with their stats may reveal subjective information. How much you want to value motivation, desire, etc is up to you. But totally dismissing wins dismisses how well a player can get his team playing behind and for him. Unlike most other sports, baseball is the only sport where wins are tracked so publicly for an individual player. Football comes kind of close, but nothing like baseball.

 

Again, it isn't a huge factor, but I believe it shouldn't be overlooked or automatically dismissed.

Dang, two!

What does a pitching win measure well? Nothing. Human or otherwise, a pitching win is meaningless.

They definitely mean less than they used to. Pitchers used to pitch to win. Now they pitch to build their stats and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way.

 

Pitchers would maybe give up a few runs in games with leads in an attempt to extend games and save the bullpen. They wanted the win giving up the run and stats didn't matter. More and more I see the pitchers continuing to throw stressful pitches with leads just to try to make sure they can get as many outs in as few batters as possible.

 

 

I am going to say at least 14.

In the real world, results are what matters most, not just metrics that tend to state this or that. Chris now has 14 wins. Those are tremendous results! I still look for him to have an awesome year of 24+ wins. As for the legitimate use of metrics, they do uncover instances when a guy is producing results but some top line measurements are not capturing the full impact of those results. In that vein, I do hope that Quintana will start getting some well deserved offensive support.

If Sale gets 25 or more wins, I think he's a lock for the Cy Young regardless of anyone or anything else.

I know wins don't matter, but damn, 14-2 looks pretty good

 

I believe they do. Teams play better when a certain guy is on the mound.

 

I believe they do. Teams play better when a certain guy is on the mound.

We could go back and forth all day, but Quintana, for example, (entering today) had received 9 runs of support over his previous 9 starts. I don't think he should be at fault for that.

They definitely mean less than they used to. Pitchers used to pitch to win. Now they pitch to build their stats and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way.

 

That's the problem with Quintana. He doesn't pitch to win.

That's the problem with Quintana. He doesn't pitch to win.

 

Did...did we watch the same game today?

I know wins don't matter, but damn, 14-2 looks pretty good

It's funny how wins used to be THE stat that mattered. It's all people cared about, that W/L record. Now we're down to where most consider it a meaningless stat.