"More bunting"

[SoxFan562004]

If a pitcher gets more upset on a bunt, which may move a runner into scoring position over a guy who just crushed one to the upper deck and definitely scored a run, he needs to get his head examined.

Yeah, sounds like some people would rather face the 90's Braves pitchers who were excellent at sacrifice bunting with a runner at 1st then say, Adam Dunn.

[SouthsideDon48]

So Pods singles in the first. Are we really saying that he best solution is to have Beckham square around to move Pods up 90 feet. I would say the ability for Beckham to make solid contact, hit doubles and for power would outweigh any benefit of moving Pods up to second. Also the problem has not been, getting the guy into 2nd. Its been getting him in. How does bunting all of a sudden fix the pucker factor our team has when men move into scoring position.

No, not in that situation, but I would call for the bunt in the 3rd inning if, say, the leadoff batter was the 9th batter (Getz) and he got on base.

 

So if Getz was on base, and the next batter was Pods and the batter after that is Beckham, then I'm DEFINITELY calling for a bunt.

 

With a well-played bunt by Pods, 1 of 2 things can happen:

1. Getz moves over to 2nd and Pods is out, and Beckham bats next.

or...

2. Getz mvoes over to 2nd and Pods is safe on 1st after outrunning the bunt, flustering the opposing pitcher with 2 runners on base with 1 in scoring position and a strong bat in Backham standing in the batter's box.

 

That's better than letting Pods try to swing and risk a double-play, which would not give Beckham the psychological edge he would've had if there was 1 baserunner on 2nd in scoring position, or 2 baserunners on base.

[SoxFan562004]

so this is for '10, I guess we're just all going to assume Pods is going to replicate his best statistical year since his rookie year and stay healthy for another full year?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

We try this s*** every year in Spring Training and still nobody gets it. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

 

Hopefully with Dye and Thome gone and kids like CJ Retherford getting lots of time in there we'll start seeing some better execution. The only thing worse than bunting in a no-bunting situation is watching the player fail to get it down after the manager called for it anyway.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm all for fundamentals. Some of you stat jackasses can get ridiculous about the giving up outs part of the game. Sometimes it just makes sense and it can push things and help get the offense rolling.

 

So Ozzie, I'm all for it!!!

 

And I certainly hope Buddy Ball down in the minors is preaching all of the fundamentals.

[Chisoxfn]

We try this s*** every year in Spring Training and still nobody gets it. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

 

Hopefully with Dye and Thome gone and kids like CJ Retherford getting lots of time in there we'll start seeing some better execution. The only thing worse than bunting in a no-bunting situation is watching the player fail to get it down after the manager called for it anyway.

It'll work better on a younger team. Guys like Konerko, Dye, Thome, AJ, it doesn't matter. They've been too far along in the game. But it is very important to preach it to all the younger guys so that we might see this team turn into a good fundamental offensive team.

 

 

[Texsox]

No, not in that situation, but I would call for the bunt in the 3rd inning if, say, the leadoff batter was the 9th batter (Getz) and he got on base.

 

So if Getz was on base, and the next batter was Pods and the batter after that is Beckham, then I'm DEFINITELY calling for a bunt.

 

With a well-played bunt by Pods, 1 of 2 things can happen:

1. Getz moves over to 2nd and Pods is out, and Beckham bats next.

or...

2. Getz mvoes over to 2nd and Pods is safe on 1st after outrunning the bunt, flustering the opposing pitcher with 2 runners on base with 1 in scoring position and a strong bat in Backham standing in the batter's box.

 

That's better than letting Pods try to swing and risk a double-play, which would not give Beckham the psychological edge he would've had if there was 1 baserunner on 2nd in scoring position, or 2 baserunners on base.

 

Are we suggesting the Pods (as in the guy that is hitting .303 and 2nd most likely on the team to get a "real" hit) or a generic Pods hitting close to the team average?

 

The .303 Pods I'm leaving up there to hit in the early and mid innings and looking really long and hard before squaring him around in the 7-8-9.

[SoxFan562004]

I'm so glad mods can just call a group of posters "jackasses"

[Texsox]

I'm so glad the owner of the site can just call a group of posters "jackasses"

 

fixed

[SoxFan562004]

fixed

thanks, I guess he can then!

 

Leaning towards stat jackassary for offensive purposes, let me stress I think the bunt has a huge place in the game, that is in obvious pitching duels or when you're facing an ace pitcher or even as a suprise on a squeeze, but again, in the AL and in the Cell, IMO, the Sox can't focus on it early in the games.

 

All stat jackasses should go to deadspin.com and look at some of the articles from yesterday, the firejoemorgan.com guys were guest editors and it was awesome!

Edited September 17, 2009 by SoxFan562004

[Texsox]

thanks!

 

And for the record, you objection was noted and being discussed. And is the usual soxtalk procedure, if any warnings are issued, they will remain private.

[Thad Bosley]

No, not in that situation, but I would call for the bunt in the 3rd inning if, say, the leadoff batter was the 9th batter (Getz) and he got on base.

 

So if Getz was on base, and the next batter was Pods and the batter after that is Beckham, then I'm DEFINITELY calling for a bunt.

 

With a well-played bunt by Pods, 1 of 2 things can happen:

1. Getz moves over to 2nd and Pods is out, and Beckham bats next.

or...

2. Getz mvoes over to 2nd and Pods is safe on 1st after outrunning the bunt, flustering the opposing pitcher with 2 runners on base with 1 in scoring position and a strong bat in Backham standing in the batter's box.

 

That's better than letting Pods try to swing and risk a double-play, which would not give Beckham the psychological edge he would've had if there was 1 baserunner on 2nd in scoring position, or 2 baserunners on base.

 

In the third inning, I'm not wasting an out having Pods bunt Getz over to 2nd. I'm letting a guy with a very good stolen base ratio take his chance on swiping the base. Most good base stealers have around a 75-80% success ratio, and I'm sure that matches up quite favorably to the success ratio of the average bunter in the league. No, for me, I take my chances with Getz running in this particular scenario every time.

 

The only time I'm bunting with an American League team playing in a hitter's park like U.S. Cellular Field is from the 7th inning on in a one-run ballgame when you get a base clogger on base. That I'll sign onto. But other than that, I'm either having my good baserunners trying to steal bases, and/or I'm letting my hitters swing the bat.

 

[Chisoxfn]

I'm so glad mods can just call a group of posters "jackasses"

I swear to god, some of you guys have never played the game of baseball. I don't care what some dweeb from Stanford has calculated. Sure, the new wave of stats have become a great way to further evaluate players and a great way to try to determine who are the best players in the league by factoring in stadiums, etc.

 

However, sometimes all you need is an extra run, not 3 or 4 and while the stats may show that bunting is going to hinder run production, the way it does it is by potentially preventing the big-inning, but sometimes you just need a f***ing run, not a big inning.

 

If the Sox got a few extra runs, we'd have seen there 1 run record swing drastically the other way and that starts with playing good fundamental baseball. There is such a thing as a productive out and the Sox are one of the worse teams I've seen in a long time at doing that. And part of fundamentals is good defense and I think we all know the Sox have sucked awfully at that all season.

 

You find a way to improve the defense and get the club to make more productive outs as opposed to useless outs and we are talking about a 2010 team that should content for a World Series.

 

And I'll call whomever I want a jackass. I'm one of the most behaved posters on this site and when people get too far away from the way the game was meant to be played and start thinking it really is just fantasy baseball, than I'm going to step up and speak up.

 

 

Note: I'm also the biggest supporter of the hit and run possible and if the Sox get a team of guys that can handle the bat this could turn into a huge benefit. You essentially open up a massive hole every time you do a hit and run and a guy that can handle the bat well can essentially sky-rocket his batting average in that situation.

[whitesoxfan99]

I swear to god, some of you guys have never played the game of baseball. I don't care what some dweeb from Stanford has calculated. Sure, the new wave of stats have become a great way to further evaluate players and a great way to try to determine who are the best players in the league by factoring in stadiums, etc.

 

However, sometimes all you need is an extra run, not 3 or 4 and while the stats may show that bunting is going to hinder run production, the way it does it is by potentially preventing the big-inning, but sometimes you just need a f***ing run, not a big inning.

 

If the Sox got a few extra runs, we'd have seen there 1 run record swing drastically the other way and that starts with playing good fundamental baseball. There is such a thing as a productive out and the Sox are one of the worse teams I've seen in a long time at doing that. And part of fundamentals is good defense and I think we all know the Sox have sucked awfully at that all season.

 

You find a way to improve the defense and get the club to make more productive outs as opposed to useless outs and we are talking about a 2010 team that should content for a World Series.

 

And I'll call whomever I want a jackass. I'm one of the most behaved posters on this site and when people get too far away from the way the game was meant to be played and start thinking it really is just fantasy baseball, than I'm going to step up and speak up.

 

 

Note: I'm also the biggest supporter of the hit and run possible and if the Sox get a team of guys that can handle the bat this could turn into a huge benefit. You essentially open up a massive hole every time you do a hit and run and a guy that can handle the bat well can essentially sky-rocket his batting average in that situation.

 

Bunting can slightly increase your chance of scoring one run but also decreases your chances of scoring any runs and greatly reduces your run expectation. I don't think people have a problem playing for a single run late in games but doing it early in games is dumb. You can call me a jackass all you want but that is fact.

[SoxFan562004]

I swear to god, some of you guys have never played the game of baseball. I don't care what some dweeb from Stanford has calculated. Sure, the new wave of stats have become a great way to further evaluate players and a great way to try to determine who are the best players in the league by factoring in stadiums, etc.

 

However, sometimes all you need is an extra run, not 3 or 4 and while the stats may show that bunting is going to hinder run production, the way it does it is by potentially preventing the big-inning, but sometimes you just need a f***ing run, not a big inning.

 

If the Sox got a few extra runs, we'd have seen there 1 run record swing drastically the other way and that starts with playing good fundamental baseball. There is such a thing as a productive out and the Sox are one of the worse teams I've seen in a long time at doing that. And part of fundamentals is good defense and I think we all know the Sox have sucked awfully at that all season.

 

You find a way to improve the defense and get the club to make more productive outs as opposed to useless outs and we are talking about a 2010 team that should content for a World Series.

 

And I'll call whomever I want a jackass. I'm one of the most behaved posters on this site and when people get too far away from the way the game was meant to be played and start thinking it really is just fantasy baseball, than I'm going to step up and speak up.

 

 

Note: I'm also the biggest supporter of the hit and run possible and if the Sox get a team of guys that can handle the bat this could turn into a huge benefit. You essentially open up a massive hole every time you do a hit and run and a guy that can handle the bat well can essentially sky-rocket his batting average in that situation.

hey, good times.

 

Again, all stat jackasses are painted as one, which is not true of many of us. Stats are meant to be used as a scouting tool and applied in general to a game day-in-day out. Of course there are special/unique situations. I posted before that I thought Ozzie should have tried a freakin' safety squeeze with Q on third an AJ at the plate at one point because the team couldn't get anyone in from 3rd with less than 2 outs.

 

My argument is I don't think it should be the general philosophy of them team considering they play in the AL and 81 games at the Cell.

 

and of course you can call anyone what you want.

[Chisoxfn]

Bunting can slightly increase your chance of scoring one run but also decreases your chances of scoring any runs and greatly reduces your run expectation. I don't think people have a problem playing for a single run late in games but doing it early in games is dumb. You can call me a jackass all you want but that is fact.

I'd again counter that it depends on the situation. If you are facing an ace and have your ace on the mound than I think you play for the one run whenever you can. if you have a dud on the mound and they got there ace, than you might sit back for the big inning in hopes that you can blow things open and somehow get to the ace cause really, the only way you'll win is if you score a ton anyway.

 

That is strategy and I think from game to game, one run matters a lot more than a bunch or runs and the reason good teams win is because when its necessary they can get that one run. And it doesn't mean you are giving up outs. Hit and runs, bunts, everything is a factor.

 

Anyone whose played competitive baseball should be able to point out the added pressures of defending a team that is effectively agressive on the base-paths and can hit and run and will occasionally bunt. I can also speak as a pitcher, albeit, not the greatest one of all time, that I would feel more pressure to make the big pitches with a runner on 2nd than a guy on 1st so you are working a pitcher more in those situations just as a team will feel a bit more pressure in those cases.

 

And big league players aren't immune to pressure, they feel it. Sure they deal with it better than most but it still exists. There is a reason why agressive teams also tend to have more opposition errors made than those unagressive teams.

 

And I'm not saying the Sox should be stupid, but I will say the way a lot of the Sox vets handle a bat with runners on 3rd base is f***ing in-excuseable and these guys would have been chewed out on my high school team for not getting guys in.

[Chisoxfn]

hey, good times.

 

Again, all stat jackasses are painted as one, which is not true of many of us. Stats are meant to be used as a scouting tool and applied in general to a game day-in-day out. Of course there are special/unique situations. I posted before that I thought Ozzie should have tried a freakin' safety squeeze with Q on third an AJ at the plate at one point because the team couldn't get anyone in from 3rd with less than 2 outs.

 

My argument is I don't think it should be the general philosophy of them team considering they play in the AL and 81 games at the Cell.

 

and of course you can call anyone what you want.

I realize the AL is the AL, but the Rays excelled last year playing an NL style of ball and the Angels have dominated the West (albeit a poor West) for a number of years playing some of the best fundamental baseball and I've seen it all first hand so I'm incredibly biased in my desire for the Sox to become the Angels of the Midwest.

 

We've seen lesser Twins squads beat us because of there fundamentals. So ya, I think its good, but I continue to point out that it needs to start at the ground level and I certainly hope Buddy Ball is focusing on these things!!!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm all for fundamentals. Some of you stat jackasses can get ridiculous about the giving up outs part of the game. Sometimes it just makes sense and it can push things and help get the offense rolling.

 

So Ozzie, I'm all for it!!!

 

And I certainly hope Buddy Ball down in the minors is preaching all of the fundamentals.

I'm all for smart, well-balanced baseball which means everything from loading up the bases with walks and hitting big home runs against crappy pitchers to bunting, stealing bases, playing hit-and-run, moving up runners with sacrifices, etc. against good pitching. Ideally I'd like to have an offense similar to the Angels with the only difference being a bit more meat in the center of our order. But I'd like a team capable of beating any given pitcher on any given day whether on the road or at home, and no matter if he's lefty or not and no matter how many times we've seen him.

 

That said, Ozzie decides to bunt in some pretty stupid situations sometimes. If I ever see Ozzie take the bat out of Beckham's hand again when nobody else is hitting I'll f***ing scream.

[Balta1701]

I realize the AL is the AL, but the Rays excelled last year playing an NL style of ball and the Angels have dominated the West (albeit a poor West) for a number of years playing some of the best fundamental baseball and I've seen it all first hand so I'm incredibly biased in my desire for the Sox to become the Angels of the Midwest.

 

We've seen lesser Twins squads beat us because of there fundamentals. So ya, I think its good, but I continue to point out that it needs to start at the ground level and I certainly hope Buddy Ball is focusing on these things!!!

In 2008, the Rays had 23 Sacrifice Hits. That was the lowest total in MLB. The Angels were 22nd in MLB in SH, the Sox were 28th.

 

I agree with you on the fundamentals, on doing more hitting and running, and I don't mind the occasional bunt. But I just feel like every time I've seen the bunt used this year it's been a bad time. Either it's someone who isn't good at bunting or someone who shouldn't be bunting (i.e. Beckham).

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I realize the AL is the AL, but the Rays excelled last year playing an NL style of ball and the Angels have dominated the West (albeit a poor West) for a number of years playing some of the best fundamental baseball and I've seen it all first hand so I'm incredibly biased in my desire for the Sox to become the Angels of the Midwest.

 

We've seen lesser Twins squads beat us because of there fundamentals. So ya, I think its good, but I continue to point out that it needs to start at the ground level and I certainly hope Buddy Ball is focusing on these things!!!

Agree to an extent about the Twins, but I think the main reason the Twinkies have kicked our asses over the years is because of our s***ty OF defense versus them catching everything hit out there. You look at the lineups and the Sox always have more thunder, but those guys press when nothing is falling. The Twins are able to hang in ballgames because of their pitching and defense which enables fundamental offensive baseball to be effective. OTOH we put ourselves in situations where even if we hit a 3-run bomb and go up 3-1, we're only a chopper or a walk away from ending up in a spot where we give up a double in the gap that would have been caught by the Twins' defense. Then somebody moves to third and comes in on a sacrifice and now we're all tied up.

 

I really, really hope we tighten our OF defense up this year. I've never been a big Coco Crisp fan, but I know Kenny has wanted him for a long time and he's probably a very realistic target for us, much more so than Figgins is. Put him in CF with Rios in RF and we can catch the ball in the OF no matter where we go.

[Texsox]

I believe the real pivot point in this; some stat heads get to the extreme and believe that baseball does not need a manager making a decision, just have him call up the situation on his computer and "play the odds". On the other hand there are those that believe in an endeavor undertaken my humans, with all their frailties and weaknesses, that looking into the eyes of the players and knowing how they respond to this unique situation, is the best way to make that decision.

 

Unique situation.

 

Just because there are runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out, a righty on the mound, at night, and anything else you want to factor in mathematically, it still is not that same situation. You don't know he just had a fight with his wife, or his gf promised him a Hummer, or both. You don't know where his confidence is at that moment. I'd rather have a guy up there confident he can lay down a bunt, than hoping to. Even good bunters struggle.

 

Gut versus stat. Move the needle to either side, but you need both. For me, when computers are playing, I'll lean more towards stats, when humans are playing, I'll take the instincts of a good manager.

[son of a rude]

I realize the AL is the AL, but the Rays excelled last year playing an NL style of ball and the Angels have dominated the West (albeit a poor West) for a number of years playing some of the best fundamental baseball and I've seen it all first hand so I'm incredibly biased in my desire for the Sox to become the Angels of the Midwest.

 

We've seen lesser Twins squads beat us because of there fundamentals. So ya, I think its good, but I continue to point out that it needs to start at the ground level and I certainly hope Buddy Ball is focusing on these things!!!

how far have those twins squads gotten in the playoffs?

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

how far have those twins squads gotten in the playoffs?

About as far as those moneyball Oakland A's juggernaut teams of recent past, which of course proves nothing.

[MexSoxFan#1]

I would rather someone teach our hitters to go opposite field instead of trying to pull the ball every goddamn time.

 

Ideally,I would have Beckham batting 3rd in the lineup to drive in runs...have we tried Getz at the 2 spot this year?I can't recall.

[Harry Chappas]

Bunting is only good agaisnt an ACE or when the batter sucks and the next guy up is a really good hitter with men is scoring position and the runner on base is a smart base runner.

 

Bunting to get to a .280 power hitter is stupid in my book especially if the bunter is fast an unlikely to ground into a double play.