The Bulls biggest problem: John Paxson and Gar Forman

[Jordan4life_2007]

You must really hate the Bulls franchise.

 

At worst, they're #3.

They've been top 5 in the Eastern Conference for the last 5 years.

 

Classic oxymoron definition. The east f***ing sucks. And even assuming Rose never gets hurt, they lose to the Heat in '12, '13 and '14 and lose to the Cavs last year as well.

[Jenksismyhero]

Classic oxymoron definition. The east f***ing sucks. And even assuming Rose never gets hurt, they lose to the Heat in '12, '13 and '14 and lose to the Cavs last year as well.

 

Even if that's the case, they're in the top 4-6 teams in the NBA. That makes them contenders.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Even if that's the case, they're in the top 4-6 teams in the NBA. That makes them contenders.

 

They're contenders in the way the 1990's new york knicks were contenders (even they made the finals once). In other words, they were never really contenders. Even in the 62-win season in '11, they finished outside the top ten in just about every major offensive statistic, traditional or advanced, that you can think of. I have a lot of beef with the Bulls. My main beef, though, is their inability or stubbornness or whatever to adjust and adapt to the modern game. It's all about pace, spacing, versatility aka multi-dimensional players and what has become the most lethal shot in basketball - the 3-pointer. Look at the teams that have taken LeBron out three of the last five years. They specialized in spacing, precise passing/ball movement, and lethal three point shooting. The Bulls still operate like it's 1999. Pathetic.

[Chisoxfn]

Classic oxymoron definition. The east f***ing sucks. And even assuming Rose never gets hurt, they lose to the Heat in '12, '13 and '14 and lose to the Cavs last year as well.

Yes, but following your logic, LEbron would have won the past 5 championships or so. So unless you had Lebron, you would be the failure. Now the Warriors are here so they will win the next 5.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yes, but following your logic, LEbron would have won the past 5 championships or so.

 

Honestly, and this is kinda sad in a sense, I think '13 might well be the last title LeBron ever sees. The west is just too f***ing ridiculous. This year's Thunder would be the massive favorite any year from I'd say 2005 to 2012 or 2013. This year, they're a distant third despite the absolute fact they have two of the top 5 players in the game. The Warriors and Spurs aren't going anyway anytime soon. The Cavs f***ed up when they failed on all those high picks (sans Irving). Waiters? Thompson? Bennett? Three fails. And that's not just hindsight. Many thought they reached, especially with Bennett, with those picks.

[nitetrain8601]

Even if that's the case, they're in the top 4-6 teams in the NBA. That makes them contenders.

 

No theyre not

 

Spurs

Warriors

Clippers

OKC

Cleveland

Miami

[Boogua]

Honestly, and this is kinda sad in a sense, I think '13 might well be the last title LeBron ever sees. The west is just too f***ing ridiculous. This year's Thunder would be the massive favorite any year from I'd say 2005 to 2012 or 2013. This year, they're a distant third despite the absolute fact they have two of the top 5 players in the game. The Warriors and Spurs aren't going anyway anytime soon. The Cavs f***ed up when they failed on all those high picks (sans Irving). Waiters? Thompson? Bennett? Three fails. And that's not just hindsight. Many thought they reached, especially with Bennett, with those picks.

It's hard seeing this year's Thunder as favorites over teams like the 07 Spurs, the big 3 celtics, and the big 3 Heat teams. The last two were especially super hyped after they were initially put together.

 

I do agree that 13 is likely Lebron's last title, unless he leaves Cleveland at some point to ring chase.

[Quin]

This thread is cancerous and ozzfest has no logical basis to any of his arguments other than he wants to complain about the GarPax because he feels the need to b**** about them because as a hindsight revisionist GM, he knows EXACTLY what to do.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It's hard seeing this year's Thunder as favorites over teams like the 07 Spurs, the big 3 celtics, and the big 3 Heat teams. The last two were especially super hyped after they were initially put together.

 

I do agree that 13 is likely Lebron's last title, unless he leaves Cleveland at some point to ring chase.

 

I should've and meant to say the west favorite those years. You're right about those east teams, especially the '08 Celtics (the best defense I've ever seen). I agree that LeBron might have to dip out again to win another title. The Cavs FO is just awful.

[southsider2k5]

Front office rankings in Chicago (in terms of which teams have the best chance to win it all). Which is how a front office should be judged.

1) Blackhawks

2) Cubs

3) Bears

4) White Sox

5) Bulls

 

Past the obvious #1 and #2, this is the worst possible listing.

 

Hawks

Cubs

Bulls

White Sox

Bears

[Quin]

I should've and meant to say the west favorite those years. You're right about those east teams, especially the '08 Celtics (the best defense I've ever seen). I agree that LeBron might have to dip out again to win another title. The Cavs FO is just awful.

 

The problem is LeBron runs the Cavs FO.

[ozzfest]

This thread is cancerous and ozzfest has no logical basis to any of his arguments other than he wants to complain about the GarPax because he feels the need to b**** about them because as a hindsight revisionist GM, he knows EXACTLY what to do.

I think it's logical to question a product that hasn't delivered for over a decade. Did you want Jerry Angelo fired? Do you think Kenny Williams should still be running the White Sox?

[bmags]

Maybe, but that said I hate the argument that essentially says the bulls could never have done anything differently (what more could they have done for a FA, the other teams had better offers for a trade). While, fine, in 10 they lost out on the FAs fair and square when they set themselves up fine, but in 14 they tried to convince Melo to take half the money. That's not serious.

 

Also, they are responsible for the talent/assets on roster. They have had a preference for older established vets on roster over younger, higher upside players (miami has whiteside, the bulls have kirk hinrich!). They traded 2 firsts for Doug McDermott. They missed out on Green for Teague.

 

They are above average, and had tragic luck. The Warriors would not win a title if Steph Curry blows out his knee and Draymond green fights plantar fascitis.

 

But comparable teams and situations (Spurs, Heat, Warriors, Rockets) have seen them draft, sign and trade much more effectively to get them over the hump. The Bulls sign a Boozer and Gasol.

 

That said, nobody could have ever experienced the injuries bulls had and won a championship.

[Boogua]

They're contenders in the way the 1990's new york knicks were contenders (even they made the finals once). In other words, they were never really contenders. Even in the 62-win season in '11, they finished outside the top ten in just about every major offensive statistic, traditional or advanced, that you can think of. I have a lot of beef with the Bulls. My main beef, though, is their inability or stubbornness or whatever to adjust and adapt to the modern game. It's all about pace, spacing, versatility aka multi-dimensional players and what has become the most lethal shot in basketball - the 3-pointer. Look at the teams that have taken LeBron out three of the last five years. They specialized in spacing, precise passing/ball movement, and lethal three point shooting. The Bulls still operate like it's 1999. Pathetic.

The next season after the 62 win season they finished 5th in the NBA in O-Rating.

 

Also, the Spurs might have one of the best teams in history so far and they're 23rd in pace and 26th in 3PA. There's always a best way to win until it's not.

[ozzfest]

Past the obvious #1 and #2, this is the worst possible listing.

 

Hawks

Cubs

Bulls

White Sox

Bears

Ryan Pace knows what he is doing. He's done a good job changing the roster and culture. Hired a good coach as well. Bears are on the up and up.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The problem is LeBron runs the Cavs FO.

 

Yeah, you're right to a degree. The Wiggins trade was stupid and I said it then. Wiggins could've been to LeBron what Bias was supposed to be to Larry Bird. All those other failed draft picks are on the FO.

[southsider2k5]

Honestly, this isn't a discussion that will change anyone's minds. People believe what they believe. I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are on.

 

As a fan, would you rather make the playoffs every year with no realistic shot at competing for a championship or would you rather compete for championships and actually make it to the Finals.

 

Paxson is risk adverse.

 

PS, I said trade Noah for Love. I also said trade Noah for Melo. Bulls refused to add him in either deal which is where negotiations stopped. Funny people get criticized for video game trades, but those are the only ones the Bulls attempt and fail miserably at.

 

Fact is:

 

Bulls suck at getting FAs

Bulls suck at making trades

Bulls suck at evaluating their medical staff

Bulls are OK at drafting. And honestly, without Butler, they're mediocre at it

Bulls are horrid with coaching relationships.

 

But somehow that makes them a tip line front office. I guess as long the playoff tickets are available for a round, its all good.

 

I measure my FOs in championships and appearances. Not how many times they got exposed in the playoffs for a weak roster makeup in a very weak conference.

 

OK at drafting? You can't seriously look at this team, and call them OK. They have drafted and developed MULTIPLE All-stars in the sport that is the single hardest sport to get an all-star in. Even past Rose, you are neglecting Deng, Noah, and Butler.

 

The Bulls aren't horrible at trades, they just don't make many trades. They are scared. Those are two different things.

 

The Bulls suck at getting Grade A free agents, but have done amazing things at plucking players who are either no names, or fallen out of favor for some reason, and turning them into useful parts.

 

The front office definitely doesn't give a s*** about public appearance, and I do get the feeling that they think coaching is not important.

[Quin]

Yeah, you're right to a degree. The Wiggins trade was stupid and I said it then. Wiggins could've been to LeBron what Bias was supposed to be to Larry Bird. All those other failed draft picks are on the FO.

 

Agreed on the draft picks.

 

But Wiggins trade and TT's extension are both squarely on LeBron.

[ozzfest]

*Waits three years for "FIRE PACE" thread*

Or in your case Tony, *waits 20 years to post a fire paxson thread.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The next season after the 62 win season they finished 5th in the NBA in O-Rating.

 

Also, the Spurs might have one of the best teams in history so far and they're 23rd in pace and 26th in 3PA. There's always a best way to win until it's not.

 

Wow, I thought you were lying. 5th? The same team except you have a broke down Rip Hamilton in place of Keith Bogans. Well, that was the lockout year. Idk. But I don't believe for a second that Bulls team could've beaten the Heat.

[Chisoxfn]

No theyre not

 

Spurs

Warriors

Clippers

OKC

Cleveland

Miami

I just want to point out that outside of the Warriors, they have beaten all those teams on that list. The Bulls also have the highest winning percentage in the eastern conference vs. teams above .500 and the 2nd most wins vs. teams above .500 in the NBA (tied with the Spurs...whose winning percentage is significantly higher). Bulls winning percentage vs. .500 or better teams is 3rd in the NBA.

[southsider2k5]

Classic oxymoron definition. The east f***ing sucks. And even assuming Rose never gets hurt, they lose to the Heat in '12, '13 and '14 and lose to the Cavs last year as well.

 

It does not mean what you think it means.

[Boogua]

OK at drafting? You can't seriously look at this team, and call them OK. They have drafted and developed MULTIPLE All-stars in the sport that is the single hardest sport to get an all-star in. Even past Rose, you are neglecting Deng, Noah, and Butler.

 

The Bulls aren't horrible at trades, they just don't make many trades. They are scared. Those are two different things.

 

The Bulls suck at getting Grade A free agents, but have done amazing things at plucking players who are either no names, or fallen out of favor for some reason, and turning them into useful parts.

 

The front office definitely doesn't give a s*** about public appearance, and I do get the feeling that they think coaching is not important.

Yeah, considering draft position guys like Gibson, Asik, and (while still in the air) Mirotic were very, very good picks.

[southsider2k5]

Ryan Pace knows what he is doing. He's done a good job changing the roster and culture. Hired a good coach as well. Bears are on the up and up.

 

And the Bulls ARE a playoff team. The Bears won 6 games last year.

 

[ozzfest]

OK at drafting? You can't seriously look at this team, and call them OK. They have drafted and developed MULTIPLE All-stars in the sport that is the single hardest sport to get an all-star in. Even past Rose, you are neglecting Deng, Noah, and Butler.

 

The Bulls aren't horrible at trades, they just don't make many trades. They are scared. Those are two different things.

 

The Bulls suck at getting Grade A free agents, but have done amazing things at plucking players who are either no names, or fallen out of favor for some reason, and turning them into useful parts.

 

The front office definitely doesn't give a s*** about public appearance, and I do get the feeling that they think coaching is not important.

They don't give a S*** about public appearance? Gar Forman ran down from his suite, and publicly berated Jeff Van Gundy during a Bulls game because he was making fun of management.

http://nypost.com/2015/02/27/why-you-wont-...-bulls-anymore/