Vulture

Did you even read the link you provided? “Uses measures for catcher defense including blocking pitches and framing: Fangraphs :yes on blocking, but no on framing bref: yes, DRS” looks like you’ve got it backwards

On the claim that bref doesn’t use framing in their calculation. Framing is used in their drs calculation. Drs is used in war calculation. Therefore framing is used in their war calculation. there’s obviously something wrong with their equations if a pitcher with an era+ of 123 in 25% more innings of work is given half the war of a pitcher with a 80+, which is replacement level, as was the case in your Loaiza Lynn comparison in which you claimed you used bref for batters.

You’ve already been proved wrong on that claim. At least I actually read the responses that show when I’m wrong and subsequently acknowledge them. Previously you claimed in another argument you only used FAngraphs war for pitchers anyway.

‘19-20 is the cited period. Citing the most recent period equally isn’t cherry picking

Defensive war since ‘19: mccann 1.7 grandal -0.5 Total mccann 4.9 grandal 3.0 Projected salary mccann 10.5 grandal 18.5 return for loss of player mccann none grandal ?

I still don’t think Grandal is better offensively significantly enough at this point (118+ vs 114) or that three catcher interferences in regular season vs one in playoffs at crucial juncture is enough to make up the difference between the more important aspect of catching AND the value returned in trading Grandal AND the difference in salary 2.82 cera vs 4.74 giolito alone can’t account for that difference when that is .66 better than giolitos overall era and McCann caught rookies at a higher rate while Grandal had more starts with the pitcher who had by far the best era on the staff this holds over from ‘19 as well when Grandal had 4.62 cera compared to 3.87 for other milwaukee catchers while McCann was again over a run better than other catchers for sox 4.40 vs 5.52 with gio pitching 12% of innings pitched, he alone can’t account for that difference

I must have been misrembering the catcher interferences I didn’t look it up. My mistake

I guess I was slightly off on offensive numbers 118 ops+ vs 114. Still not much of a difference or stretch to conclude that if Sox traded grandal for anything close to fair value that they still would be better off with that player plus a younger cheaper catcher Sox pitchers have stated a clear preference for.

Keuchel had 1.5 better era than giolito and McCann also caught majority of rookie starts. again if the starter is “of course” going to have better stats then why is it relevant to grandal in your argument but not McCann in mine? Not to mention that is directly contradicted by McCann/grandal situation. Might as well not bother posting if that is your argument because if your claim above holds true then your analysis is irrelevant anyway

So was grandal then. .396 slugging post break in ‘19

I think you’re thinking of grandal with the catcher interferences including the one that loaded the bases in the playoffs. I personally witnessed three catcher interferences from grandal which is about as many as I’ve seen from one catcher

Look at CERA for McCann on fan trax then compare. McCann was 1.5 runs better than grandal and better than team era through this career. You didn’t show your data proving grandal either. if you can’t see the contradiction in claiming pitchers perform better with grandal on the mound and discounting that pitchers perform better with McCann including compared to grandal I don’t know what to tell you

And my claim is Sox would be better with McCann AND player acquired for Grandal than Grandal

Eight million less would be 10.5. Post all star break is 40 percent of season. If McCann is only good for first 60% then so is grandal

If pitchers that perform better with McCann should get new jobs then why shouldn’t pitchers who perform better with grandal do the same? Not surprised you don’t see the glaring contradiction in your argument, but it is there none the less. Fact is pitchers have also performed better with McCann behind the plate through out his career and vastly so ‘20. No one claimed giolito couldn’t be successful with another catcher that’s just a blatant strawman you keep pounding on

If a catcher doesn’t have any effect on pitchers success why did you bring up the fact relative to grandal? you’re claim was pitchers perform better with grandal according to a study you performed. The fact Sox pitchers have been far better with McCann than grandal is therefore obviously relevant to your claim

Isn’t it more delusional to ignore everything save pitch framing is in mccanns favor with only rebuttals being hypotheticals. Not much of a stretch to imagine Sox would be better off with McCann at eight million per year less plus a player acquired for grandal rather than grandal

Quoted for reference. further people keep claiming McCann wears down over full season citing post all star stats, ignoring grandal also had similar declines in latter part of season. grandal .396 slugging post ‘19 break mccann .416

The same is true for McCann throughout his career and in ‘20 McCann won that battle by a long shot. Sure he caught the bulk of giolito, but also bulk of rookies. Keuchel had 1.5 edge over gio anyway

All the data points favor McCann since ‘19 though, along with Sox pitchers clearly expressing McCann preference. Sure you can find reason to discount them all but if we’re just looking at actual facts since ‘19 McCann outperformed Grandal offensively, Sox pitchers had greater success with McCann and Sox pitchers have expressed preference pitching to McCann. Eye test suggests McCann is superior behind the plate. In favor of Grandal is a an edge in pitch framing.

He had a full no trade clause in ‘20 and limited the rest of the way. Can’t find specifics on what that entails.

I still think if Hahn were really slick he’d swoop in, resign McCann and trade Grandal to a realmuto loser. Sox would be better off with McCann and whatever they can get for Grandal.

Sure there is a speculative reason to discount every of the numerous items in actual favor of McCann

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/dallas-keuchel-i-hold-out-hope-james-mccann-returns-white-sox Keuchel “praying” McCann still returns to Sox. Maybe he doesn’t realize McCann’s superior performance since he put on a Sox uniform was just a mirage. “I hold out hope that he comes back with us because that would be amazing — that team is going to get a perennial leader, an All Star”

You have to look at ‘22-23 projected payroll to determine available funds for any multi year contracts. With Eaton and Lynn, ‘21 payroll is still lower than projected payroll for those years so they have little effect on ability to sign multi year contracts. That’s why Hahn said signing Eaton allows payroll flexibility to make further deals