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QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Oct 4, 2011 -> 09:55 PM) Well, managers are all the same anyway, so it doesn't matter who we get, right? Not if the managers are total buffoons like Bevington. Not saying Martinez is that. You guys pull all my quotes out of context whenever I make a long post. Ridiculous.

QUOTE (kevo880 @ Oct 4, 2011 -> 08:29 PM) Why do we need to do anything about the catching situation? It's KW/JR's fault we backloaded AJ's contract. It's for one more season, not at an absurd price (ala Rios, Dunn, Peavy), and he's still good. Keep him and play him 4-5 games a week while Flowers gets 1-3 games a week. It won't be a platoon situation but you could certainly take advantage of the righty/lefty matchups. This gives Flowers a chance to keep learning the staff and study under Pierzynski, whether Pierzynski is actually going to "tutor" him or not. After that hopefully Flowers is ready to take over in 2013. If AJ is on the team, IMO there's no way the new manager sits him 3 games a week, unless he DHs one of those games. If he's not playing 5 or 6 out of every seven, I bet you see a rift with AJ and the new manager, which the new manager won't want. Did you see the one postgame presser where the Mets' manager was crying recently about letting Reyes sit out most of that final game? He said he spent the year trying to earn the players' respect and he was fine with doing Reyes the favor. The Sox new manager can't afford to run afoul of AJ. So if AJ is healthy, Flowers will get Castro-like playing time, not much at all.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Oct 4, 2011 -> 09:23 PM) 5 minutes ago would have been a good time. So Martinez is officially this season's backup quarterback guy. The guy every fan has to have, for no real reason except Sox fans like the fact he's a Sabes guy. The Rays, who play in the biggest, baddest division in baseball, just got blown away by the Rangers. I have nothing against the guy, but anybody who thinks he is a savior, just tell me why. In my mind, he's no different from Alomar. If Martinez truly is going to receive a lot of offers, I bet the only way the Sox get him is with a 4 year contract. Sox are a team going downhill unless KW reworks the roster fast. No way in hell he'd choose Chicago over Boston if all these teams truly want him. My guess is it's Alomar in a runaway in a cost effective move as the team tries to rebuild.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Oct 4, 2011 -> 05:30 AM) That would mean Jerry Manual wasn't a bad manager. After all, he had to go through growing pains (first time manager when he first signed on with the Sox) as well and was over .500 as a Sox manager. Ozzie Guillen is not a player, he's a manager. Yes, managers learn and they evolve, but Ozzie's too thickheaded to let anything influence his gut. So no, there's no guarantee he becomes a better manager anytime soon. The White Sox didn't train Ozzie as a manager. He was a manager here from the start, if anything he learned under McKeon and the guys on the Marlins staff. Plus, why is it so important to have guys who used to play here as managers? Who the hell cares? Just be a good manager, I don't care if they played with the Yankees their entire career. How do you know they will make mistakes? I'm willing to bet those guys are better in-game managers than Ozzie already. It's dealing with the players that new managers need to get a hang of and it appears Martinez does that quite well. I don't know about Alomar. Why should Manuel get fired if the Phillies don't win the WS? Sure, that would come short of their expectations, but that team's won 5 consecutive NL East titles and they've gone to at least the NLCS for the past 3 seasons. If the Sox were doing that, Ozzie would still be here. And why should Washington get fired? That team got to the WS last year and they won 96 games this year. Managers don't get blasted unless they make some horrible moves. Perhaps letting Lee pitch in the 7th in game 2 was a bad move by Manuel, I thought Lee should have been taken out given his pitch count and his ineffectiveness in previous innings, but if the Phillies lose to the Cards these next two games, Manuel isn't really responsible for it unless he makes more bad moves, moves that are even worse than that. Sometimes, managers make bad moves that have a positive influence on the game. Then there's the other time where a manager makes a move so bad that it is bound to fail, like hitting Adam Dunn against a lefty in the late innings or letting Adam Dunn pinch hit in the late innings period. Ozzie did that a couple of times this year and it was obviously the wrong move. Not only because it was against the odds, but that it was so against the odds that it was bound to fail badly. People have said this before: one bad move isn't going to turn the fans on you, a lot of bad moves will. Ozzie's done exactly that, as most of this board thinks. The issue with your opinion is that it is in the extreme minority on this board (which is not indicative of every Sox fan, but do realize that this board is filled with very knowledgeable hard core fans). If everyone else thinks differently, you might want to think about why. We didn't all hate Ozzie from the start. I didn't really mind him until 2010 rolled around. And I definitely agree that the players decide the game. That's a given, but the manager puts the players on the field and if that includes giving Adam Dunn and Alex Rios the majority of plate appearances instead of Viciedo or De Aza, then the manager is costing the team a lot more than you think. I appreciate the long post. I disagree with some of it, but I don't think you or anybody else wants me to reiterate my position on Ozzie. It's more of the same. If u have a specific question I'll respond. I mainly get a kick out of the postseason cause normally the games are close and when a team loses, the team's fans can squarely point at some managerial decisions. I laugh cause I hear it all year about Ozzie's decisions, but now that everybody's watching these games, I get to FINALLY hear people bag on managers not named Ozzie. Lots of bad decisions cause when u lose a game you can always second guess the manager.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Oct 4, 2011 -> 01:53 AM) 1. He didn't do any of the things you mentioned, especially the whole good record with the Sox. .525 is not a good record, it's a record of mediocrity. AND if you look at the big picture (like you said), he's underachieved with some expensive rosters filled with good talent (06, 07, 10, 11). I think the first two things you said in your first point are debatable (to a point), but Ozzie Guillen won big in one season and fell on his face the rest of the time. 2. Why should Ozzie win the battle when he a) has a worse winning percentage than Williams during their stints with the Sox and b) felt like he was entitled to a new deal when he SHOULD have been fired (like you said)? Ozzie wanted out and the only way he was staying is if the Sox fired Kenny. But Ozzie went about that in a bad way by acting like he was entitled while Kenny admitted to his mistakes and was willing to step down. JR's loyal to both of them to a fault, but it's easy to see why JR did what he did. The big picture is this Greg. The Sox won the World Series 6 years ago. My little brother barely knew WTF happened back then and he's in 4th grade already. In the minds of most (including Sox fans), that World Series is on the backburner in terms of relevancy. What people care about is, what have you done for me lately and what can you do for me in the future? The answer for Ozzie is, he hasn't won anything of relevance for the past 3 years given expensive rosters and he looked like he didn't give a rat's ass about this team during most of this season. Kenny Williams didn't change or go "Kenny "The Genius" Williams". Ozzie Guillen did and it was going to get even worse had he stayed. I still say that winning percentage of Ozzie's isn't half bad for a guy learning on the job. Isn't a win percentage over .500 pretty decent for any skipper who has been in a place a while? Do you dispute the fact he is only going to get better? Why did we train him in Chicago to go kick ass the next 20 years of his career somewhere else? Now we in all likelihood bring in a rookie like Sandy/Martinez who is gonna make a big batch of mistakes as he learns how to manage. I realize we agree to disagree. But by the end of this year's playoffs you are going to likely have a new set of managing "bums" who teams want to run out of town. If the Phillies don't win this series? Look out. Manuel will be a bum. If the Rangers don't win ... ouch. Leyland has been ripped in the past for not winning with talent. The Yankees? If they lose??? Ouch again. Girardi will be blasted. I will not blast our new manager as he goes along BTW. I wish him well as I truly believe players for the most part win games. I do hope he realizes that if he doesn't get them to learn how to bunt in preseason, then the bunt is a worthless weapon in games. If the team doesn't show the ability to steal a base in preseason, don't run in games.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 3, 2011 -> 10:32 PM) Greg, two part question here: 1. What is the function of a baseball manager to you? What do you deem to be their level of responsibilty within the organization? 2. What is an acceptable reason to fire any manager? 1.) To get the team ready for the season fundamental wise (yes he failed at that the past two years with our team's s***ting bunting), to make good moves during the games (I think his moves are fine, you guys disagree), to win (he has a damn good record with the Sox). 2.) What he did this year was fireable offense, the team burying itself in April/May. However, even tho he DESERVED to be fired, I think his track record with the Sox earned him a shot to win the battle over KW and see if we could return to greatness under Oz under a new GM. I look at the big picture, which you guys get on me for. Big pix: He already won one WS in Chicago. He's very young. He learned on the job in Chicago (just wait for Alomar/Martinez growing pains, they will be there) and I hate to see Ozzie part II do great things for another franchise. I am convinced he will be one of the greats and I HATE seeing him do it for another team when he learned on the job here in chicago.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Oct 3, 2011 -> 08:00 PM) When did he call for a sac bunt? If you are referring to the Josh Hamilton bunt, he was trying to beat the shift, it wasn't a called sac bunt. Yes that's the play. I didn't see the game, just saw Baseball Tonite where they were mocking the bunt there. They said it was a sac and he really did square up. You may be right but I'm going by the highlights and what the talking heads said.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Oct 3, 2011 -> 02:08 PM) I doubt its Fisk. From what I heard, the sox want a manager who is also fluent in speaking Spanish to help communicate with the latin players. Martinez, LaRussa, Alomar and Pena are all fluent in Spanish. Not sure if that is why Francona isn't high on the sox list, but it might go with it. We don't have to worry about Fisk. No way KW hires a guy who is such a crabby guy. He could quit at any point as he doesn't need the job and he's known as a real prick. No fricking way Kenny goes the way of hiring a guy who could be a problem personality wise. My guess is Alomar or Pena.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Oct 3, 2011 -> 07:27 PM) Nobody wanted Ozzie fired after one bonehead move. They wanted him fired after the 5,000th bonehead move. When Charlie M gets his tally up to 5,000, he'll likely be gone as well. You all got caught up in the messenger and not my question. Do you not agree the Pujols thing was huge (after the fact)?? If that happened to our Sox, don't you agree people would have imploded only on Oz? And like I said if they go on to lose the series our fans would says that was the only reason we lost the series? My point was not so much to only praise Oz believe it or not but to again point out you can point to the manager in any loss. I mean if Lee gets him out, nobody cares, but it failed and our fan base woulda freaked. Also in Game One, down 6 runs or something with a man on first, Ron Washington called for a sac bunt. Nobody knows why. But again, we do that bunt and ... implosion!

I cringed during that stretch when Ozzie was starting to play Omar a lot cause Morel was sucking so badly. I thought Oz would play Oldie the entire rest of the season. Omar is too old. He annoyed me when he played a lot and when he batted second.

So man on third and they don't walk Pujols, lefty pitching. Yes it's Lee, but he's already been hit tonight. Base hit by Albert, winning run scores. So do you all want Manuel fired after what he's done? My point? Folks, all managers make bonehead moves. The players have to bail them out. If they don't, they are bums. You guys would FRY OZZIE for not walking Pujols in that situation. If we lost the series you'd be saying: "All the momentum was lost when Ozzie didn't walk Pujols." And what if New York loses to Detroit? Their fans will be livid? Hey it's 1-1. Leyland was a bum the seasons Minnie kept winning the division. What has the Angels' manager done lately? What happened to Clint Hurdle after being the first half darling? They sucked the second half. It's about the players, baby, not the manager!

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Oct 2, 2011 -> 02:17 AM) It's easy cause its f***ing stupid. I don't feel bad for 1 second if a person who's made millions lost it all because of their own stupidity. Living within your means applies to those making 35k or 3.5mil Well isn't that compassionate of u?

I don't mean to flame, but why would a hot prospect like Martinez pick Chicago when he's got KW as GM and Dunn/Rios/Peavy problem hamering the ability to acquire guys who can uh, play the game? Why wouldn't good managers wait for a better situation? Sox job isn't really attractive with KW supplying the players IMO.

QUOTE (robinventura23 @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 10:14 PM) Not sure where to put this, so I'll put it here: Beerleaguer The 2011 White Sox in beer Because a legitimate season review of the White Sox would be frustrating. Beer This is a pretty simple exercise. Each player's 2011 season is represented by a beer, good or bad. Think my taste in beer sucks? Drop me a line in the comments with a suggestion, or send it to me on Twitter or Facebook. Juan Pierre: Coors Light I feel like I should hate it out of principle, but if you drink it fast, it's actually not so terrible. But that doesn't make me want another one. Phil Humber: O'Fallon Pumpkin Ale It's really good at the start, but it gets a little rough toward the end. Still, when you're done drinking it, you're really glad you did. Gordon Beckham: Blue Moon Every time I drink it, I have high expectations, but am always disappointed. Paul Konerko: Goose Island Matilda The best beer there is. Alexei Ramirez: Three Floyds Gumballhead A similarly great beer, although it doesn't get the national attention it deserves. Jake Peavy: BrewDog Sink the Bismarck It's super expensive and you're probably going to get hurt drinking it. Alejandro De Aza: Goose Island Green Line Pale Ale A fantastic beer you wish you saw more often, like in stores. AJ Pierzynski: Sam Adams Boston Lager Overrated, but hardly terrible. Sergio Santos: Goose Island Demolition A very good beer, but they only sell it in 650 ml bottles, so trying to drink the whole thing means you're going to be really tired and struggle to finish the end of it. Chris Sale: Bud Select 55 Get it? Because he's skinny. (This in no way is me saying Bud Select 55 is good, in fact, I've never had it and don't ever plan to) Brent Morel: ? I can't think of a beer that tastes better at the room-temperature end. Mark Buehrle: Schlafly Oktoberfest A St. Louis-area brew that never blows me away, but is one of my favorite beers. Adam Dunn: Goose Island Bourbon County Stout I couldn't finish the bottle when I first tried it, and it was very expensive, but the next time I had it I really liked it. Alex Rios: Red Beer Budweiser and V8 is just an awful combination. And it's actually kind of expensive to get all those ingredients together, too. Dayan Viciedo: Dayan Viciedo Founder Breakfast Stout One of the best stouts there is, only released in September. (Via @Many_Vent) John Danks: Shiner Bock The Texas connection is obvious. A solid beer with good results, but the amount your friends talk about it makes you think it should be better. (Via U-God of South Side Sox) Ozzie Guillen: Leffe Blonde Abbey Ale Tastes great at first, but after you've had a few of them, the novelty wears off and you can't really stand the taste of it anymore. (Via mm) Kenny Williams: Red Stripe Every once in a while, you'll have one and it will taste really good, but for the most part, it always comes up short and disappointing. (Via mm) Omar Vizquel: Old Budweiser The old Budweiser that I found in the garage and for some dumb reason decided to drink it. (Via Scotch Man) Brent Morel: High Life I find that it finishes better than other cheap beers. (Via Jim from South Side Sox) High Life is cheap and effective enough. Not the best option, but not Keystone Light either. (Via Tom from South Side Asylum) Jesse Crain: Hamm's Minnesotan. Comes at a fair price. Better than you'd expect, but prone to moments of extreme regret for the purchase. (Via U-God of South Side Sox) Jesse Crain: Stone Ruination IPA Way over the top in intensity, but delicious & worth the pricetag. (Via @Many_Vent) Alex Rios: Keystone Light But it's Keystone Light you payed $50 for. (Via Eriq Jaffe) John Danks: The Commemorative Willie Nelson can of MGD in my garage I keep it around 'cuz it could be valuable, someday (via the great Carl Skanberg) Brent Lillibridge: Modus Hoperandi Relatively inexpensive. Funny looking packaging on a deceptively strong product. Not readily available and much better in moderation. (Via U-God of South Side Sox) Carlos Quentin: Goose Island Night Stalker Strong, quiet, dark like that great set of hair, after a few you too will become injury prone. (via SouthSideSwaggr) Shane Lindsay: Foster's Australian, available most everywhere. Actually wanted nowhere. (Via U-God of South Side Sox) Lastings Milledge: Beer 30 A low-cost risk that seems like it might pay off. It never does. (Via U-God of South Side Sox) Tony Pena: Steel Reserve The thought of what you spent to get either makes you want to vomit as much as the taste does. (Via U-God of South Side Sox) Hector Santiago: PBR He was pretty awesome, but you've probably never heard of him. (Beerleaguer) Will Ohman: Left-Hand Brewing Co. Stranger Pale Ale Heavy, pale, left handed and from Colorado. Neither good nor bad. Merely exists. (Via U-God of South Side Sox) Jeff Gray: Beer 30 Because my reaction to both was "This exists?" (Via James from White Sox Observer) Wow. What a post. Amazingly good stuff.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Oct 1, 2011 -> 02:31 AM) I don't even think Francona will be available, it really looks like he's going to take a year off. Seems like this past season has taken a good 10 years off his life. He ought to go on a 2 week vacation and see if the Sox will wait. By the time he takes a couple weeks off he'll be fine. He's a baseball guy. LaRussa always wants to come back after taking some time off. But if the Sox can't wait, maybe you are right.

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 07:35 AM) Expect Tito Francona to become a major candidate for the White Sox job in the next few days. It seems like such a no brainer. If Sox sign Francona and keep the veterans we think they are going to keep to go with some of our young favorites, the team remains relevant. Perhaps Tito has some opinions on which of the guys to dump on other teams. If we sign Alomar, no offense to Sandy, but it's a sign we are going very very cheap and don't care about returning to the WS.

QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 08:30 PM) I don't believe I sugested Oz was going to die poor, but do you really think Ozzie has enough to watch $8,000,000.00 slip away? You can always live a little better. An even bigger boat, an even bigger house, bigger diamonds for the wife and girlfriend, even longer and more lavish vacations. I just watched a special about a ship that rents for $500,000 per week. Think a guy with a couple million in the bank will lease it for a month and cruise the Med Sea? How about a guy with $10 mil in the bank? If no one desired a house more expensive than a milliom bucks, then no one would build $5 mil homes. Think about this, didn't Jordan make enough playing basketball? Why did he endorse products? I've read very few people that say they have enough money and don't want any more. Yes, he's set for life. But do you think he doesn't want to improve on how "set" he is? Was this a little hint of Ozzie's lifestyle when you said wife n girlfriend? Not flaming, just wonder if u suspect he is a candidate to go on the show, "Cheaters."

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 08:21 AM) Greg, I like you, I really do. But this is the dumbest sentence I've ever seen on SoxTalk. The mouth is part of the man. And I say the fans at the stadium, when he was a player. As a player, there was a reason kids loved him, autographs and he would give plenty. I doubt he did that as manager. I thought it was an epic line: Don't hate the man; hate the mouth. A possible Soxtalk classic line! But I see where u are coming from even though it rolls off the tongue nicely.

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 04:32 PM) You can't have the biggest Sept fail in MLB history and not have fallout. Exactly. Can u imagine if that happened here under Ozzie?? People on this board would be LIVID. I think his two WS titles proves he is the man for the White Sox job, though.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 07:06 AM) Greg, that only goes so far. You can't say that about Reverend Fred Phelps down in your neck of the woods or Terry Jones in Florida. What he says and has said, whether he intended it to be for public consumption (and he's 100% aware of when a mike or tape recorder is around him, ask Phil Rogers)...coming directly from his mouth, he's made a lot of his original fans turn against him the last 2-3 seasons. Surely nobody was anti-Ozzie like they are now back in 2008. I hate that Phelps guy, though. Surprised this Cowley story isn't getting commented upon. Yes, KW was the reason Ozzie left. I agree with Cowley's sentiments, especially the last line. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...asnt-there.html

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 07:52 AM) Fixed. He never was a class act. Never. I loved Ozzie, then he just became more of an ass. He is not, will never be, and never was (except to fans at the stadium), a class act. Did u read his article on his website? Class. Except to fans at the stadium? That's huge in itself. These ballplayers and managers come to the ballpark for 6 months out of the year.To always be gracious??? That's class. Lots of guys pretend to not see the fans and ignore them. Ozz is nice to them? Class. Ozzie likes to talk and a lot of you hate his mouth. Don't hate the man. hate the mouth. p.s. It'd be neat to see polls on here. Are u glad Ozzie Guillen got fired? Do you wish Ozzie was still the Sox manager? Would I be the only one to vote no and yes on those 2 questions?

QUOTE (Wanne @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 04:47 AM) hahahaaa...ya think. The Ozzie hatred wears me out. The thing is on HIS website. He could have dictated the message to somebody who wrote it. I love Ozzie Guillen. Class act.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 09:48 PM) Assuming he has a blank checkbook. Which clearly he doesn't. Otherwise, any one of us could get on a plane (ala Billy Beane in MONEYBALL), go to St. Pete and bring Dave Martinez back as the new Sox manager, or Terry Francona, for that matter. And the manager has to be signed off on by JR, as well. So if JR wanted to spend $7.5 million, give LaRussa a seat on the board/partial ownership interest and promised a "golden parachute/front office" position for TLR at age 70, do you really think LaRussa would still stay in St. Louis? Oh cmon. s***ty baseball players make 3 million a year. We can afford to pay Tito 3-4 million. It's absurd to cite money as the reason for Sandy over Tito. Pay the man.

QUOTE (Real @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 06:34 AM) enough with the White Sox brotherhood hires, enough is enough of this inhouse/past players bulls*** Brotherhood, hire? He's a two-time world champion for god sakes. He's be a super hire.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 05:35 AM) The Red Sox didn't hire him because he had 2 WS titles. And if we hire him, we need to hire him for the same reasons the Red Sox did. My main issue re: Francona is his perception of being a players manager almost to a fault. We don't have Big Papis and Mannys here, but we will have more young talent that needs to be kind of protected a bit IMO. But I guess you never know what you're getting until you get it, so maybe Francona would adopt a different type of personality here. No matter what though, Francona would be seen as a "win now" or at least a "win soon" hire, as well as a "money" hire, and I don't think we need any of those things. So if we bring him in, again, do it for the right reasons. The guy is 52. He is YOUNG by baseball standards. THis would be a great swap; Oz for Tito. Tito will win 1-2 WS title with the Sox and be a Hall of Famer! Sox are gonna blow this and it is UNACCEPTABLE