Yossarian

I can't speak for anyone but yours truly, but this was a time for KW to shut up and just let the facts dictate the situation. I can't remember the poster who pretty much said just that. Those were and still are my feelings on the matter. There is a time to speak and a time to be silent, regardless of who's "right". Regarding Maggs, I just wish someone here had access to the real scoop, whatever it is. In any case, it doesn't sound good.

Gotcha, sorry for being a tad dense. Old age setting in or a long day at the office, which ever excuse sounds best.

Not necessarily. This trade gives me the willies. I hope Garcia isn't Broglio to Jeremy Reeds Brock. I know I'm showing my age here but ask an old time Cub fan about that long ago trade.

Wow, very interesting discussion. I was high on Crede and admit it. I criticized KW's Machiavellian dealings with Manuel that kept Royce Clayton in the lineup, Jose Valentin playing all over the place and Joe Crede in the minors. I have been disappointed in Crede, especially this year. His swing, like Borchard's needs some work. Unlike Borchard, he's 1. had some degree of success in the past at the ML level and 2. seems to realize he has to work hard to salvage his career. Borchard seems unwilling or unable to adjust his game at the plate. So, I say give Crede his last chance in 05. Borchard will never amount to anything. He's not even as good as a modern day Dave Nicholson. If I'm wrong, great then pass me the crow and a couple of cold ones to wash it down. Concerning Garland, I think what you've seen the last three years is what you're going to get. A maddeningly inconsistent SP that doesn't seem to have the competitive edge all the aces of the league possess. I know a comparison was made to Curt Schilling and his troubles early in his career. Schilling always had "power" stuff and an attitude to go with it. Schilling was and is tough as nails, a throwback to another era. Garland looks, talks, and acts soft because that's what he is. In my heart of hearts I don't believe the guy truly believes in himself.

He needs to do what Konerko did this season. Silence the doubters.

You know I don't think this is a particularly good or effective President in office now, but I will never I should say NEVER understand the pathological and rather mindless hatred directed by many to George W Bush. I really think that some would vote for Osama Bin Laden before they would Bush, and prostate themselves in honor and devotion to him in the process. It's mindless, it's sickening and it serves no purpose. You don't like the President you've got Kerry, Nader, Badnarik, Peroutka and others to chose from. I don't believe there is any such thing as a wasted vote. Bush is not the anti Christ. If Kerry gets in, Koffi Annan won't be sleeping in the White House. Before I get old and die I would hope to see sanity, dignity and intelligence restored in the political arena. If anyone cares the best book on American political science I've ever read is Why Americans Hate Politics by the liberal pundit EJ Dionne. I'm not a liberal and can no longer read most of Dionnes columns but his book far surpasses anything I've ever read on politics in America. Of special interest is the history, and his especially good portrayal of modern American Conservatism. Most people hardly begin to understand the many fractures and fissures within the Conservative movement. If folks would read more substantive material, then there would be less and less of these scurillous charges and counter charges that typifies the political climate today.

Help him out and move those fences back a little. I could be wrong but I think his road ERA was under 3 this year. Good job Mark. Except for a bad first half of 2003. he's been as steady as they come in the hitting oriented AL.

I'm the most fiercely independent person that you'd ever want or maybe not want to know. I've paid a heavy price in my career, my bank account and my health. I'm a voracious reader and I've had a number of jobs that put me in contact with the whole gamut of people. I make up my own damn mind. Always have and always will.

I doubt that it sunk in though.

You took the words out of my mouth. Contreras does remind one of Navarro and Ritchie.

I am too, but so many here seem to want to trade him for a bag of beans.

People are still sold on his potential. I think you just ought to watch him play and then you can come to only one conclusion. He's not close to an Adam Dunn. Actually he's not even close to a major leaguer. He's a bust of major proportions.

Didn't the D'Angelo Jiminez affair teach anybody anything? Jiminez is a choir boy compared to Guillen. Head case doesn't even begin to explain him.

These two players are greatly undervalued here. Some of the trades proposed make me want to :puke .

I hope that you're right because I have nightmares about the Sox trading him for a sixpack and a bag of beans. Carlos is just coming into his own, his hitting is stellar, his defense improved. He's still a bonehead on the basepaths sometimes, but if the Sox dangle him as trade bait there will be a long line.

You've turned out to be pretty prophetic. The Cell has turned into Coors Field east and it's time that Sox managment at least acknowledged it. Even taking the ball park into consideration Garcia has been anything but an ace.

You are absolutely right. KW has a bad habit of making it known that he wants a specific player and then getting held up by the opposing teams GM. I'll say it again. This trade has the potential to be the modern day version of Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio.

I expect a little bit better than a 4.78 era from an "ace".

Carlos Lee and/or Paul Konerko are traded for washed ups, has beens, never wases or never will bes. Jeremy Reed is ROY. Garcia continues to disappoint and Jose Contreras does his best Jaime Navarro/Todd Ritchie impersonation.

Can somebody please help me up, I just fell out of my chair.

Yeah this post stunned me. Is this really serious or is it the mania phase?

Call me simple if you like. Ordonez is on a very short list of all time great Sox players. We don't have a history like the Yankees you know. I never met the guy but he seems grounded and level headed and in any case whatever there is negative about him he's kept it in the background and just played ball. He's not been the typical arrogant, pushy in your face modern day athlete. A number of Sox players in recent years have had their moments of stupidity and immaturity and not just on the field. Never Ordonez. So if I'm the owner or the GM I want to give this guy, who is a clear fan favorite the benefit of the doubt. Of course one has to take into consideration his recent serious injury in negotiating a new contract. Whether he gets re signed or not, a little simple respect is in order. I wonder if anybody here has noticed that the Cubs are on a roll, headed for the playoffs again, while the Sox slide slowly into irrelevance. Pretty soon it may not matter one way or another if they're still in town. They can't afford even small mistakes at this point. The treatment of Ordonez is another vintage bonehead KW move. I really liked winninguglyin83's post on this thread. Couldn't agree more and I wonder why so many here are willing to trash Ordonez and then push him overboard. If the guy is healthy he's going to pick up right where he left off. If not, he deserves thanks for a very productive and trouble free 5+ years. That's how I feel and you can call me simple if you like.

I'm going to fall out of my chair. I hope Maggs reads here that he is the "bad" guy and sweet Ole Ken is as pure as a baby's hind end. Maggs didn't say anything as far as I can tell, until our genius GM opened his mouth. After he told the whole world he was on the verge of being a hopeless cripple. If I was Maggs I wouldn't want to play for the White Sox anymore. Enjoy trying to make the playoffs let alone win a WS with the Willie Harrises, Ross Gloads, Juan Uribes, Carl Everetts and Joe Borchards of the world in your lineup. If Maggs can get himself healthy and goes elsewhere I guarantee the crying on this board will start sooner rather than later.

Don't worry everthing is cool. Just having a baseball discussion which is why I come here in the first place.

Every time I see a Lee or Pk or whoever to be traded thread I wince. KW has been all over the dartboard with his trades and no bullseyes to date. Trade Lee or Konerko? Then please make the trading partner pay full value and then some. I don't want to watch the reincarnation of the 62 Mets next year.