Yossarian

I figured about 87 wins, third place, no playoffs. I did see the window of opportunity closing on them in the second half of 06, but I never saw this nightmare on the diamond that is the 07 White Sox.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Aug 27, 2007 -> 02:36 PM) I can't say for every neighborhood in Chicago, but the one I live in seem's to be respected by the current immigrants. I think areas that have a heavy immigrant population are going to be your poorer areas. It goes for all past waves of immigration. I think that immigrants from all generations would have stayed in their home country had things been better off. They come to America for a better life. To say that it's part of the "process" to be attacked is just insane. We all come from immigrants and should learn from what happened to are grandparents, so that we don't do what was done to them. Also I'm so sick of the "PC" thing. It's such a copout to use that. To say it's part of the process is a historical statement and nothing more. It has been part of the process. In fact you could make a case that today's immigrants have had an easier road in that regard. Did you ever see one of Thomas Nast's cartoons about the Irish? If someone in a major newspaper tried to do that to say the Mexicans, he'd be lucky to get work as a janitor. Immigrants have improved and even saved many inner city neighborhoods in this country. Most are assimilating at their own pace, just like past generations of immigrants, but a much higher percentage of today's group are not. There is also not the medical screening that existed in the Ellis Island days. It's not possible when ten or twelve or however many million have just walked in. It's a mess that's been perpetuated by both political parties for their own cynical reasons, and it needs fixed yesterday. The last major wave of immigrants occurred between about 1880 and WWI. Congress pretty much closed the doors in 1924, and that lasted until the Immigration act of 1965. It's time to call another time out for a generation or two, just to allow the nation to absorb millions of newcomers. It's just sound, logical, rational policy. Try and propose it and see if the PC police aren't out in full force. I too am sick of the PC thing too. It's not a copout. It's real. It exists in government, in the schools and in the corporate offices. Go find a Human Resources pro who's been around awhile, and ask about the many changes they've encountered in the last twenty years. Thomas Nast Irish Cartoon

Yeah, it was a more clever retort than my own.

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Aug 27, 2007 -> 03:19 PM) Man you young-uns! This year doesn't even begin to measure the pain of the late 70's. There was a bit of a high with the hitmen of 77...but Veeck was trying to run the team on a shoestring...you'd check the attendance figures before the score. One of those seasons his wife designed the uniforms. Disco demolition. The team was a national laughing stock. I'd say 78 or 79...both last place finishes...one year they let Richie Zisk and Oscar Gamble go because they couldn't afford them. The next they let Steve Stone and Wilbur Wood go. They traded fan favorite Eric Soderholm to get Ed Farmer...thus beginning the thread that would make him our broadcaster. And everyday in the Trib the story was "Will Sox move to St. Petersburg" "Will Sox move to Arizona". A horrible team. horrible talent. And the fear that I would forever after lose my team. Come on...WS, 90 win season, disappointing season. We've got a lot of talent and some prospects in the minors and Kenny Williams who could do anything in the off season. Those 78, 79 and 80 teams were brutal, but Harry and Jimmy kept fan interest high. I never had so much "fun at the old ball park" as I did in those days. Until 05 of course. There were no rumors about St. Petersburg or Arizona. The AL did have the Sox ticketed to Seattle after the 75 season, and they surely would have moved there had not Veeck come to the rescue at the last possible moment. In 79 or 80 there were rumors that Veeck would sell to Marvin Davis who would then move the team to Denver. When it initially looked like Edward DeBartolo Sr. would get the club for the 81 season, there were brief rumors he wanted to move the team to New Orleans. I remember Harry Caray's interview with him in early 81 when he expressed enthusiasm about building a winner in Chicago. He did bring championships to the 49ers and the first Stanley Cup in Pittsburgh. The St. Petersburg thing didn't come up until the mid and late 80s. I never remember rumors about Arizona, and I don't think that was even a possibility of a team there until Colangelo put his group together in the mid and late 90s. The period from 1968-1980 produced only two winning seasons, but lots of fan interest, (if not always great attendance) and a carnival atmosphere at old Comiskey from 72 on. Today we're looking at an uncertain future at best, and we have a dreadful radio team, and a not so hot pair in the TV booth.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Aug 27, 2007 -> 10:32 PM) Kenny Williams also put one of the best teams of all time onto the field. That shouldn't buy him much more time but it will buy him a bad year. He's been very streaky as a GM. He deserves a chance to right the ship. I would have Ozzie on a shorter lease. Edit: I know lots of good Sox fans see it the other way around.

Do you think Ozzie and Kenny are nervous? I doubt it. Things are sure different in Houston.

I suffered through 1970, when they lost 106 games, and drew 495,000 or so fans for the entire year. That was awful, but they hired Chuck Tanner, and I was young and optimistic. As bad as that was, this is worse. Since the second half of 06 this team has gone from bad to terrible. I'm not going to bore anyone again with the W-L records I've been posting, but will say that I disagree that this team has any degree of talent. Right now, there are only 4 or 5 on the roster I want any part of. The cupboard is bare down on the farm. If Kenny can fix this, he's a demigod among GMs.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Aug 27, 2007 -> 09:42 AM) Well...if the Dems in the Senate cave on approval of Chertoff...we may as well find a 3rd party to support. I wish there was a viable third alternative. Both parties are brain dead. As of this moment, I support Ron Paul.

QUOTE(TLAK @ Aug 27, 2007 -> 06:13 AM) Danks, Floyd, Logan, Wasserman, Fields, Richar, Gonzalez, Owens. 8 rookies or first full season men out of the 25 on the roster. Thats a lot. Those names leave me trembling with excitement.

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Aug 13, 2007 -> 08:17 AM) Then to you it is also pretty clear that it's OK to sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7), and it's OK to own slaves as long as you buy them from a neighboring nation (Leviticus 25:44), and that you can of course kill your neighbor if you find he has been working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2). Likewise, you're crystal clear about it being better for you to give your daughter up to be raped if it keeps two men from sinning by lying together (Genesis 19:1-9 - a personal favorite of mine). If you are clear about all of these things, and a boatload of others taken right from the Bible, then you are somewhat of a misanthrope in modern society. If you only think God's word as recorded in the Bible is only eternally binding when it condones bigotry against gays but less so regarding these other ancient dictates, then certainly you are in good company. But your interpretation of the Bible and which of God's laws should be heeded nonetheless remains distressingly selective. The poster took the bait, and thus results your clever retort. For me this passage answers the question. But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.2Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” 6This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.7So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”11She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more. The draconian punishments of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, and it is not for us to condemn, but still we must "go and sin no more". If adultery is not OK, then I have to think that the policy certain mainline denominations are taking is in serious error, and not in keeping with Christian teachings. People are free to believe or not as they see fit, but Christianity like all other religions has rules and boundaries. It may not be the feel good answer, but real religion like good Bourbon should be strong.

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Aug 21, 2007 -> 07:54 PM) Great cartoon, and you're one of the sharpest posters here or anywhere else. Still what would you do? Have everybody leave, except for the original inhabitants? That means you too, I assume. Except who are the original inhabitants? Some historians and anthropologists don't think there are any truly original peoples in the Americas. Whatever. A country that's lost control of its borders is courting disaster. No, it's courting dissolution. The patronizing tone about the Newark murders on this thread is anger inducing too. People have had enough of this sort of thing, and it's endemic in many communities, including my own. These were good young people who were succeeding in a very tough environment, and deserved a chance to pursue their dreams. The ringleader of this vicious crime shouldn't have been here in the first place.

Embarassed enough to do something about it.

I wish people would quit making such a big deal about winning 90 games last season. The team went 34-43 down the stretch, and the trouble they're in now was obvious to anyone who was looking. This is not a short term trend. It's a bad team on the verge of worse. They are now 32-53 since May 27, 2-12 since August 11. A few minor tweaks is not going to make this team a contender next year. 05 was great, but it's now a disappearing speck in the rear view mirror. Major changes are needed, starting with brutal honesty about the current state of the organization.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 25, 2007 -> 01:42 PM) Or you can spend 300 million dollars on talent in the offseason, and hope the rest of your division sucks. The rest of the division does suck. I can't believe how much the Sox/Cubs thing has turned on its axis in the last year. Very depressing indeed.

QUOTE(Jeremy @ Aug 25, 2007 -> 01:32 PM) I think you hit the nail on the head and I'm not saying that out of frustration. Looking at things, not emotionally but rationally, I think it will be hard for a team on pace for 71 wins to improve the necessary 10 games to finish .500 in any of the next three or so seasons when there's such little help available in the minors. A poster was banned on another White Sox site for saying essentially the same thing. By the way, I agree with you. The next 3-4 seasons look dreadful unless KW can pull multiple rabbits out of a hat.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Aug 24, 2007 -> 09:16 PM) BUT A REBUILD WILL NOT HAPPEN. Too bad, because it's exactly what's needed. Since going 56-29 to start the 06 campaign, the Sox are 90-115. They are 32-52 since May 27. This is a team sliding merrily down the slippery slope. I'd rather watch 1962 New York Met style baseball for a few years, if that's what it takes to fix the franchise. The Sox need a major overhaul from top to bottom. It's time to start drafting players that can actually contribute at the major league level. That would be a nice start.

Aren't we quick to accuse? My family has Blacks, Spanish and French speaking immigrants, and one Jewish uncle through intermarriage. I certainly don't hate any of them, and to the best of my knowledge none of them dislikes me. My heart does break when I visit Albany Park. Or Little Village or Humboldt Park, and countless other Chicago neighborhoods. Recent immigrants have not treated those neighborhoods with the same respect as past residents. If in 21st Century America it makes one a racist to say that, then things are more PC than even I imagined. I taught history, and don't need a lesson on immigration. This is the third major wave of immigration since the Revolutionary war, and yes everyone who came before this current group also caught hell. It's part of the process, and being half Italian, I know the insults, slurs, and menial jobs that stood in the way of my ancestors advancement. The problem today is that assimilation is a dirty word, and many of today's immigrants are not encouraged and don't wish to assimilate. Some liberals even call that sort of thing racist. What a world we live in? Many of today's immigrants would return to their native countries in a heartbeat, if conditions were different. Most of yesterday's immigrants clung tenaciously to the old ways, but encouraged, no demanded that their offspring assimilate (again that dirty word). Yeah I'm glad they deported that loud unpleasant woman. I think a country that has 10 or 12 or whatever million undocumented aliens is courting disaster. I know the Albany Park of my youth is far superior to the battleground neighborhood of today, and if it's not at least partly the fault of the current residents then whose fault is it? A long time ago, when I was a kid playing ball on the playground at Roosevelt High, three of my best friends were immigrants from Quebec, Sicily and Cuba. You could hear French, Italian, and Spanish in their homes. All three turned out to be fine hard working guys. Great pals to have as a kid. I wasn't taught to judge people based on their race or nationality, and I also wasn't taught to gussie up the truth as I see it. If that makes me a racist to some of you then tough twinkies. One more thing. I get sad when I visit Albany Park.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Aug 24, 2007 -> 12:46 PM) back to back 90 win seasons and are looking at taking another good shot at the division title Going into this season they were looking at a good shot at mediocrity. It would have been nice if they achieved that. They were 34-43 to finish the 06 season, and there were warning signs all over the place that this team was in trouble. Add their current record to the end of last year and you see not a team in a slump, but a really lousy team that probably won't contend again for a few years. I don't envy Ken Williams. If he makes a contending team in 08 by hook, crook and slight of hand, then he'll deserve all the credit in the world.

All I know is that every time I make a sentimental visit to Albany Park, I want to cry. The Jewish, German, Irish and Scandinavian immigrants who came there treated the neighborhood a lot different than the current clientele. Oh well, gentrificiation is slowly moving into that high density apartment neighborhood. Time for the gangbangers to start finding a different war zone. Yes arresting and deporting that woman was long overdue.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Aug 22, 2007 -> 03:38 PM) Well the durable part might on the teeter right now as he has been pitching the last year or so with a "knott" in his shoulder. He is about to get a major payday. When a pitcher, no matter how young, is about to come into megabucks for megayears and complains about a long shoulder knott and his line drive ratio starts to climb, and his ground ball ratio starts to drop you have an issue. I would trade him in the offseason and wouldnt blink twice on it. I completely agree. I think Garland may have peaked. My one caveat is please get more than a Class A pitcher for him.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Aug 23, 2007 -> 07:21 PM) DL Podsednik and just call up Sweeney he can develop in the majors for 1 and 1/2 months instead of just 1. I'm all for this, although I have my doubts that Sweeney will ever amount to much. I haven't given up on him by any means, just have my doubts.

He's at best a spare part, a 4h OFer. A team that expects to contend just doesn't have a Jerry Owens in the starting lineup. I wish it wasn't so, because he definitely is a skilled baserunner, and a decent fielder. I just don't ever see him hitting well enough.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Aug 16, 2007 -> 07:49 AM) Maybe recently, but not throughout the entire year. He started of the year tough as nails with no run support, and pitching against some really great pitchers. Danks has pitched much better than his record and numbers show Yes, that is a more accurate assessment of Danks.

Yes Danks has been pretty lousy, but I feel the same way about him that many here feel about Floyd. I'm not ready to give up on him. I think the situation with Danks is more similar to Garland's early efforts, than comparing Floyd to Garland. I would never root against the White Sox, or any of their players, in any way shape or form. I think almost all of the guys we trade are worth more than a throw away Class A pitcher. I'd trade Floyd for a six pack, and it wouldn't even have to be cold. That's just the way I see it. If he proves me wrong, and helps the Sox get back to respectability, then great. Just because I have strong opinions, doesn't mean I want someone to fail, just so I can stroke my own ego.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Aug 15, 2007 -> 12:30 PM) and a 99% chance of being better As bad as Navarro was, Floyd isn't even close to that effective yet. I've been following the Sox longer than most here have been alive, and I'm trying to think of a starting pitcher who's looked and performed worse. I'm still trying. I think I should call a truce on this. Enough of Sox fans beating each other up over this guy. Obviously lots of you want to, or need to believe in him. I see no Maddux, or Garland, or Verlander in him. QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 13, 2007 -> 10:23 PM) and one of my cousins said that watching Floyd made him feel like he'd been robbed because he doesn't throw consistent strikes, has an ugly motion, lacks confidence and his stuff isn't that good (cue: BETTER ARM THAN VAZQUEZ[in High School, right?]talk). Floyd just doesn't have it. I, too, wonder when enough will be enough, for him and the fans. I think Ozzie's leash on him is pretty short and might have been cut already if not for the fact that KW traded Garcia for him. That about sums it up for me. Your cousin's a sharp kid.