NUKE_CLEVELAND

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 12:09 PM) Try to look at this as only one move. As easy as it is to point to free agency and suggest Williams will sign another left-handed reliever, I'm curious as to how we all feel regarding the trading of Damaso Marte for a first-class utility player in Rob Mackowiak. I absolutely like it. We get the utility man we need and ditch a bullpen arm whose value was declining with every outing. Yet another outstanding move by KW.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 01:24 PM) I would agree with you on principle, but then there comes in that nasty question...what happens when there are 4-5 "genocides" of equal size happening everywhere on the planet at once, like there is at almost any given time (what was happening in Iraq in 2002 was no different from what is happening in probably a couple dozen other countries around the world.) If you choose to intervene, how do you decide where to intervene? It seems clear to me that you just can't intervene everywhere...there's simply not enough troops available to do it, nor is there enough money. I pointed out one case earlier...if we took all of the money spent on Iraq, you could probably save 30 million or more human lives in the next 10 years just by providing the entire world with clean, disease-free drinking water. That's the equivalent of the entire population of Iraq. If I have to choose between overthrowing Saddam and providing clean drinking water for the rest of mankind, clearly overthrowing Saddam would save a few lives, but it would also cost a huge number of lives, and it would come no where close to saving as many lives as providing clean drinking water would. So how do you decide which place to intervene? Isin't that a role of the UN? Helping stop things like that? That is when they're not taking bribes from dictators like Hussein and trading sexual favors for food and supplies in impoverished contries.

What makes 100%? What does it mean to give MORE than 100%? Ever wonder about those people who say they are giving more than 100%? We have all been to those meetings where someone wants you to give more than 100%. How about achieving 103%? What makes up 100% in life. Here's a little mathematical formula that might help you answer those questions. If A = 1, B = 2, C = 3.................X = 24, Y = 25 and Z = 26 THEN: H + A + R + D + W + O + R + K 8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 = 98% AND K + N + O + W + L + E + D + G + E 11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5 = 96% BUT: A + T + T + I + T +U + D + E 1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 = 100% AND B + U + L + L + S + H + I + T 2+21+12+12+19+8+9+20 = 103% and we know how far ass kissing will take you A + S + S + K + I + S + S + I + N + G 1+19+19+11+9+19+19+9+14+7 = 118% So, one can conclude that with mathematical certainty that while hard work and knowledge will get you close and attitude will get you there, it's the bulls*** and ass kissing that will put you over the top.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:40 AM) You don't even read what I post do you? Your meaning was quite clear.

Priceless!

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:18 AM) I think you were quite clear. Yeah I was quite clear that in your world of absolutes that anything shy of coddling is torture and I used satire to do it.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:03 AM) So anything less than the Internationally recognized boundaries of torture is coddling? Please explain? Who is advocating coddling? Everyone seems to be saying stay on this side of the line, don't become Hussein, Hitler, Mengele, etc. As the beacon of human rights and freedom, don't we have an obligation to observe international law? What message are we sending if we stoop to the same level of evil as those we are fighting? How can we set ourselves up as the shining example of a society and break International Laws? Do everything allowed under International Conventions, International Laws, and US Laws. Nothing more, sometimes less if it serves the purpose. You people are advocating coddling when you say we cant use harsh methods to extract information from these people. If Im not mistaken under international law all an interrogator can do to a suspect is talk to him and nothing more. I fail to see how beating information out of a terrorist can be equated to cutting off someones ear or dipping him in acid ( yes Hussein did that ) or to performing medical experiments on people ( Hitler/Mengele ).

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 08:57 AM) Isn't one of the reasons we are fighting in Iraq because the Iraqi government used torture? Like when they cut off peoples ears because they didn't have a good showing at a soccer match? Or that they didn't consent to have Uday Hussein rape their daughter? Or that they happened to be Shiite? Apples and Oranges.

QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 08:42 AM) Actually you've been very adept at creating a straw man. And I'd love to know from anybody who "Homicide" as the cause of death of a person in our custody due to blunt force trauma is any different than people being kidnapped/killed by the insurgents. If we claim we're so much better then we shouldn't be beating people to death. How bout the fact that terrorists kill indiscriminantely, drive car bombs into crowded markets full of people, kidnap civillians and hold them for ransom, plant bombs on the side of the road, chop off peoples heads and post the videos on the internet, assassinate government officials, destroy the nations infrastructure, hinder reconstruction efforts, murder people who co-operate with the government and on and on and on and on and on. We dont have to coddle terrorists to prove we're better than anyone, they do a great job of that for us.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 11:37 PM) Grossman could go out there and completely suck, and he will still be an improvement on Orton. The only thing Orton has done right this year is not f*** it up for the defense....and if not for dropped picks by Detroit at the Dome and Tampa Bay, he DOES lose us those games. The Orton (last in the NFL in QB rating, awesome!!) supporters have ZERO ground to stand on, except that the Bears have won 8 in a row because of the defense and running game while Orton is 11 for 24 for 107 yards and a pick. Orton has done nothing to win us a single game, he has just avoided (at times luckily) losing us the game. If we fall behind by 10 points with Orton, the game is over. This team is a division championship calibur team with Orton at QB because of the defense and running game. With Rex at QB, we might actually be able to do something in the playoffs.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 08:31 AM) I love how in your world there are only two options. Bon Bons and Torture. Please. Dont twist my words around cause that's not what I said.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 08:19 AM) That is torture of the cruelest kind. The biggest problem I have with torture is the information is rarely accurate and when we act on bad information, it can be worse than not acting at all. If I started beating you, at what point would you tell me anything to make it stop? I'll bet you with a stun gun and a few other devices I could have Nuke telling me Hillary is great, YASNY singing Howard Dean praises, and PA denouncing Jesus. Using Nuke's example. If I have a hint that someone has planned a terrorist attack. I torture someone with no knowledge until they say Chicago on Saturday, and the city is evacuated, and there was no plot, what has that gained us? Now, a better conversation and debate would be, are we being too soft, without reaching torture. I could easily believe that we have drawn the line too far away from torture and we could probably do more. But sub contracting torture and other means of getting around UN and International Law, is not the route the US should take as the beacon of human dignity and human rights for the world to see. When we lower ourselves to the same level of evil as we are trying to eliminate, we aren't changing anything and making it worse. I just love how you people automatically assume that every bit of info garnered from torture is false. But then it has to be simply because certain people believe that no good can ever come from it. The "dumbing down" of torture as I call it is another thing that bothers me. Hell, we crank up the AC and thats torture, make the guy wet his pants by having a dog bark at him.........torture, make him stand for a few hours...........torture. Spare me. Next thing you know people will start saying we're torturing them cause we're not buffing their nails and feeding them bon bons. HELLO PEOPLE THEY'D KILL YOU ME AND EVERYONE ELSE IN AMERICA IF THEY HAD HALF A CHANCE!!!

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 12:55 AM) Maybe we can give the family members of those people a letter letting them know that I know their family member died a horrible painful death, but we saved the right of due process of Johnny Jihadi. The lives of the innocent are clearly not worthy of consideration to these lefties who want to assign rights to terrorists that do not exist.

QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 11:44 PM) Wow, I am a real thread killa. /still waiting for torture proponents to say that our murdering people in custody is a good thing for our image & that it will cease terrorism OH MY GOD terrorists dies while in our custody?!?!!? SAY IT AINT SO!!! Save your tears for their innocent victims.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 10:05 PM) Can I ask why you are so interested in the Hawks if you hate them so much? Call it morbid curiosity. I once was a big fan but now I've become an anti-fan.

One step closer to mediocrity. WOOT!!

QUOTE(KipWellsFan @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 09:19 PM) Huge Campaign Announcement http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentSe...8793972154' more at link not sure about the specifics yet Yeah banning handguns is really going to reduce violence. I mean the criminals who make streets unsafe wouldn't THINK of violating the law now would they?

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 06:00 PM) Ok, I'm going to respond to this before someone else does...when you earn the awards that Kerry got, you get a couple different things...you get a medal, and you also get some sort of ribbon that I believe can go on your uniform. Kerry threw away the latter at a Vietnam protest. So yes, he did throw something away, and it is entirely a semantic issue as to whether he threw away his medals or his ribbons. You're right about that. BUT.......... Oh yes he did throw the medals away. http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20...20351-2402r.htm

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 05:51 PM) Did anyone listen to Boers and Bernstein.... supposedly they were talking to Grossman who is right next to Orton. Anyways he was saying it would be nice if he was back in because than the offense could complete a 20 yard pass or something like that Orton can complete a 20 yard pass..........provided the reciever catches the ball 5 yards out and runs for the other 15.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 04:19 PM) You forgot the OT after your score though. How would that be possible?

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 04:32 PM) I don't know if this fits with the topic or not, but I just have to post it...just sit here and read it and soak up the irony. Take a guess who said that. Bringing Horror into the world in the name of Jesus. Wow. I am less and less a fan of O'reilly every day. I lost a lot of respect for him with his socialist rantings about the oil industry and this is making it worse. Great post Balta.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 05:43 PM) You also have Senator Kerry making this accusations about how crappy our troops are and how they are treating the Iraqi's horribly and invading their rights. Comments like that sicken me. LOL! He supports the troops alright.........when it's politically convienient for him. I expect no less from someone who tossed his medals away and got up in front of the Senate and denounced US troops as "murderers, rapists and baby-killers" like he did in 1971.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:47 PM) For a significant period of time, FDR had his name removed from the list of those who were allowed to see the Magic intercepts, as one of the intercepts was found in one of his trash cans. He got back on the list only shortly before teh 7th. How does the President allow himself to be taken out of the loop on untainted intelligence from an aggressive nation with whom war was imminent?

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:34 PM) There could be lots of reasons why we didn't do anything about it. We were scoping out the locations of Japanese ships for months before the attack...we lost track of 1 fleet in late November. Hell, Amelia Earhart's flight may very well have involved taking photos of Japanese positions in the south Pacific, since she was flying over there anyway. Recon of a potential enemy's ships is certainly nothing out of the ordinary, especially since our fleet was based there...that way you have an estimate of their strength if they sail out to meet the fleet. Simply pointing out stupid things which were done before the attack doesn't prove by any stretch of the imagination that FDR let it happen. What you would actually need is to not only show that these stupid things happened, but that FDR knew of every single detail of them and deliberately chose the things which happened. Do we know for a fact that FDR knew every detail that was coming from those intercepts? Hell, for a time he wasn't even permitted to see them. The military was sending out warnings to its pacific bases, but none of them were specific at all. There were even rumors of potential attacks on the weekends before the 7th, attacks which turned out to not happen...which could have very well made the leadership feel less inclined to send out war messages before the final Japanese declaration was given. Actually, Copies of "Magic" were always promptly delivered in locked pouches to President Roosevelt, and the secretaries of State, War, and Navy. They also went to Army Chief of Staff General George Marshall and to the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Harold Stark. Hell, we even gave Britain 3 of the machines we engineered to gather intercepts but still none of this intel made it to Hawaii.

QUOTE(Mercy! @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:18 PM) Why, yes. Yes I do. I expected a less than intelligent response from you. Now while you're laughing at your silly picture of tinfoil hats explain to me why, having cracked the Japanese diplomatic codes and having intercepted dispatches instructing operatives in Honolulu to do a reconnisance of Pearl Harbor and report on the locations of American ships, that we did nothing about it. We knew they were scoping the place out for a possible attack and we did nothing about it. Hell, we didn't even tell the commanders in Hawaii about it.