Chisoxfn

QUOTE(OilCan @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:41 PM) Torii Hunter would definitely improve the defense in the outfield for the Sox. Although an average hitter with some power and speed, it would be a good Plan B just in case Jermaine Dye leaves. Jermaine is gone and should be. I'd rather pay Hunter a few mill a year more than Dye. Hunter is older but he does a lot more right and that is coming from someone that still likes Dye (Dye will be fine for the next couple years, he just needs to get healthy and I expect him to have a pretty big 2nd half).

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:42 PM) I'm just assuming one of the two get moved now. I expect the rotation to be, in 08: Buehrle Garland/Vaz Danks Mystery FA/Trade Chip Floyd/Gio I tend to agree with you. It would also free up more money for Kenny to make two big FA signings.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:15 PM) I liked what I saw from him. He was obviously overthrowing, as he was keeping his off-speed pitch too high. He definitely has a different skill-set than our other pitchers in the system. Ya I liked it. I think the key to him is honing a change up and that is something our system is very good at teaching. If he can do that, stay healthy, and improve his command he has a chance to be an impact prospect. Right now I probably rank him #2 behind Gio Gonzalez but I wouldn't be surprised if he was the #1 prospect in the org by year end. QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:22 PM) That was major league bullpen stuff right now.... certainly better than some of the guys we've got out there right now. I'm looking at you Masset and Buckvich. But like you said, he'll need three pitches to be a starter at the majors, and we didn't see one there. He'll get by all the way through the minors with those two pitches though. We need to remember that he is throwing a one inning game and he was shaking stuff off so he was going with his 2 best pitches and didn't even think about throwing anything else. I know he throws a change but it isn't very good right now. I definitely think you are right about him having major league stuff right now (especially for the pen). And damn did that heater have some nice movement to it. QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:26 PM) He's probably still behind Gio, Sweeney and Egbert right now. It's hard to tell though, still being at Low A and only utilizing two pitches that we saw there. Granted, he had some good stuff, but he does need a third pitch. Until then, he's Dewon Day. Are you f'ing kidding me. No offense to Egbert but he doesn't have near the tools as the other guys on the list (including DSL) and I actually like Egbert a lot (its just hard to project him that high). Hell, Sweeney probably doesn't deserve to be on that list either. Its pretty much Gio/DSL. Than again, I am the guy that pretty much only looks at tools when it comes to evaluating prospects (I take stats into effect but I put most of the value into tools).

What I'd give for either Kemp or Ethier.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) Vaz' value is probably at a high right now. That being said, we don't have to move him. They would move Garland long before Vaz (because Kenny would like knowing he has three guys in his rotation for a while assuming health and that would be Mark...Vaz...Danks).

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) Keep an eye on Hu's cap. I would freaking love Hu. The more I've watched him the more I consider him an athletic version of Iguchi (and I consider that a very good thing) who happens to play SS. God I'd want Hu. If the Sox can work out a deal with the Dodgers and Mets I'd be a very very happy person (I just don't know who the heck the Sox would deal, LOL).

I like all that Torri does but I'd want the Sox to look at what Ichiro gets first. However I think Torri could help the Sox compete next year but it just depends on whether the Sox can find a way to get some young position talent up to the major league level.

QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:11 PM) They said Jeter has below average power for a shortstop, I looked it up and the past couple of years that's true but I didn't realize he is approaching 2300 hits already and he just turned 33. He'll probably make it to 3000. He is on a faster pace than Pete Rose. The guy is freaking amazing.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 02:07 PM) Let me say this there is no doubt garland goes now, along with Contraras, I am one that didn't really care if they signed buerhle and still don't but this means others will not get signed and will put a crimp in what we spend in the offseason. The payroll will stay the same as this year so again math needs to be done. Now for those who slammed JR and KW. For all the people swearing on the board and cussing at sox management please put some mustard on those crap sandwiches your about to eat. He gave you teenagers what you wanted, I hope a million dollars a win is good enough, and please try to get to the park more often to spend your macdonalds money. If he dumps other guys (and only Contreras as a starter) he should have somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 million to spend.

Basically if the Sox replaced Iguchi with Richar you would be taking out the net effect of the increase in payroll from the Buehrle signing. I think the Sox will move two starters, but they could very well just move one. If they moved one starter (Contreras = 9 m), plus Dye (via walk or trade = 7 M), Iguchi (3.25), Uribe (4.15), Pods (2.9), Mack (2.75), Erstad (1), and Cintron (1.9) than you are talking about 31.95 million dollars in cut payroll. Now I'm not saying other guys won't get raises, but I think you could almost non-tender Crede and that would factor in any contractual or arbitration raises (if the Sox opted to non-tender him). This means you would have some money freed up to get guys if you wanted to. If the club wanted to move Thome than you would be closer to 40 million freed up (plus the raise of Buehrle's contract of ~ 4 million based upon the average of the 4/56) so more like 35 million (factoring in Buerhle's signing). That gives the Sox some options. Albeit they would also have numerous holes to fill but the rotation wouldn't be one of those holes.

The BoSox could still have interest in another Sox starter, but it won't be Buehrle

Freaking awesome...fantastic. Thank you White Sox...thank you Mark Buehrle!!!!

The 8 ERA was his major league ERA. His minor league numbers aren't ridiculous but they were pretty good this year.

QUOTE(MurcieOne @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 01:22 PM) maybe his wife had a baby? I doubt it. She's close to being due but if she was Buehrle would have been there considering he started yesterday.

Ellsbury would be a nice fit considering our manager, but I wouldn't want him to be the main part of the deal (ie him and spare parts). If it is him with some more talent I could be happy.

QUOTE(JDsDirtySox @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 01:13 PM) Did you guys see Buehrle in the dugout shaking hands with the other guys? Ya. It looked like a goodbye of some sorts. DJ indicated players get there goodbyes in but maybe something has happened or maybe Buehrle figures something will happen so he better get his good byes in now cause he won't be wearing a uni when the ASB ends.

QUOTE(NYSox35 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 01:02 PM) I disagree. We do both at every Yankees game and I think it's a nice tribute, especially considering what is still going on in the world. It only takes an extra minute and they still do Take Me Out to the Ballgame right after. It is done every Sunday at all ballparks (do the Yanks do it for every game?) and I think its a nice thing to do once a week.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 01:12 PM) What's the estimated velocity we'll actually see from DLS? I say the gun will have him top out at 93-94. But for the most part he will be in the 90-92 MPH range.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 12:49 PM) What if Epstein were more willing to give in to KW's demands of 2 top prospects and a 3rd good prospect if the Sox were willing to take that s*** contract off Theo's hands? Would that still be a fireable offense? Lugo would have negative value from Boston's end. Yes it would. I've long said I would have no problem if the Sox are also getting Ellsburry and Bucholtz or something along those lines.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 12:30 PM) Two filthy 3-2 pitches by Vazquez. Fathom...do the Cubs have anything wortwhile in the minors in terms of catching prospects? I remember them drafting a whole boatload of them the past couple years but have any of them been doing anything?

The key guys the club should move: 1. Jim Thome - He has fantastic trade value and really will add little to no value to a young rebuilding club in the next year. Plus during that span Jim will likely become less and less reliable. He should command the #1 prospect out of any interested teams system, plus an additional good prospect or two (depending on how desperate the team is for a bat because Thome would be the best pure bat available at the deadline, imo). It would be a VAST and I mean a VAST mistake to not at least try and convince him of waiving his no trade clause 2. Jose Contreras - He has lost effictiveness and has years looming on his contract (which could still be considered affordable based on the contracts given out last year). While I think his drop in velocity is mainly mechanical (poor mechanics) I still consider now as good as a time to let him go because you want to free up the payroll and don't want to really get bit and hold onto him a little longer and end up having to eat his contract. I wouldn't expect much for Contreras, unless a team gets desperate. Or if Contreras comes back after a long rest and has a positive start (best guess is he is moved after showing improvement in his next start). I should re-iterate you are more concerned with unloading his contract than getting talent in return (however I'd let Kenny work his magic and go with a guy he has targeted as a potential project). 3. Bobby Jenks - Kenny must ask himself (realistically) how quickly he expects his rebuilding project to go through. If they plan on dumping guys and than going out and keeping the payroll at or around 100 million and compete again next year than Jenks may not be the guy to move. However, I think realistically Kenny is going to look at things and say they are more a best case 2-3 year rebuilding project (if handled properly) and with that Kenny is going to have to move Jenks. He has some durability issues (from the screws in his arm to the weight issues that ocassionally force him to throw accross his body and put additional stress on the arm/elbow). He has also seen a drop in velocity yet he is still one of the most effective closers in the game and for his price (especially over the next 2-3 years) he could get you a ransom in trade. You know that the club could than go after someone like Lidge if the team shockingly competes sooner. Either way a Jenks trade can surely net you more important and more need positions than a closer (as that should be the last piece added to a contender and the Sox won't be a contender without getting other key pieces in return and Jenks could net them a couple of those pieces). 4. Tadahito Iguchi - Iguchi is not eligible for arbitration (as he has a clause in his contract that prevents it) which means any pipe dream of draft picks for Guchi is non-existent. The reality is Guchi has playoff experience, is a decent situational hitter and despite slowing down he could add value for a fringe contender lacking something at 2b. I wouldn't expect much in return, but the more important thing is to open up a spot for Danny Richar so the organization can evaluate him and have a better idea of whether they have found there 2nd baseman or if they need to consider Orlando Hudson or someone else in the off-season. Guys you would like to move (but a situation has to make sense): 5. Mark Buehrle - I think in the perfect world the Sox could resign Buehrle and keep a handful of there starters and find a way to compete next year. However, with them refusing to give Buehrle a deal it also likely means they would refuse to give Garland a deal. With that the club should move Buehrle but only if they are able to get better than the draft picks for him. You must get a major impact prospect in any trade involving Buehrle plus a very good prospect. 6. Jermaine Dye - Dye fits a similar mold as Buehrle but there is one exception, he may not be able to get you better than the draft picks and in that case you let Dye walk, offer him arb and take your chances from there. If he did accept arb, than you accept it and hope he has a better 08 campaign and move him than. In the end Dye will want to play for a winner and if the Sox are in a rebuilding mode I don't expect him to accept arb. However, if you could package him with a reliever and get a very likely starter in a need position than you do it (see Phil Rogers suggested Cubs trade). 7. Jon Garland/Javier Vazquez - These two fit in a similar light. You would like to move one of them if Buehrle goes. The more likely person would be Garland as he would be due for an extension in a year and I would be surprised if the team came to terms with him (based on what has happened thus far with Buehrle). Garland should get you ONE HIGH HIGH IMPACT PLAYER, PLUS ONE TO TWO VERY GOOD PROSPECTS (Potentially TWO HIGH IMPACT PLAYERS). The rotation would be nasty because you will have moved three guys and basically have Danks/Vazquez and youngsters but the franchise could give all those guys acquired time over the remainder of the season and than the club could make a veteran signing or two if necessary. 8. Juan Uribe - Uribe is a valuable commodity. He will not necessarily land you a top notch prospect, but his defense should be considered a major asset for a team built around pitching. The major hold-off in any Uribe deal should simply be whether the Sox have acquired a major league ready ss in any of there other deals and if they have you should move Uribe to give that player time. You would also free up payroll again. Basically put you are clearing/ridding yourselves of most every contract via this moves in order to put yourself in a position to jump in and fill need positions via FA or trade in the next 1-3 years (depending on how quickly the process goes). 9. Relievers (MacDougall - Good Prospect and you do it; Thornton - Again you consider it if you are getting better talent in return; Logan - Unlikely you'd get the value for it) 10. Bench Players (Mack/Erstad/Pods - If you get offers and can get some lower level guys I say why not). Will all of these be made, who knows, but I think if the Sox are serious about going into a full bore rebuilding mode (and that may very well be there best option at getting good and fast) than they need to consider all of this (albeit I am basing some of this on the way the Buehrle negotiations have went). Now in terms of if the Sox want to contend again next year: Thome Buehrle (if they can't resign him get something) Dye (draft picks aren't worth as much if you plan on contending next year so find a way to get parts you like, even if it means the Sox include prospects in the deal) Iguchi Contreras Mackowiak Erstad/Pods/Aardsma (if you can even move them) The club has freed up roughly 40 million in payroll in those moves and hopefully brought in 2 #1 prospects, plus 2-3 top 3-4 prospects (in terms of a teams system) and than some fillers (either low A guys or AAAA guys). You use those guys to fill in some other holes and than spend the money to find a way to add to the offense (fill in the OF) or basically fill in what holes were not filled via trade.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 11:51 AM) Nice av. I really like Mack as a bench player, still. A gooch hit tends to rattle a person. :uhoh PAULIE I don't know what you guys put up as my av, but I haven't had images on for the past 8 or 9 months. QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 11:59 AM) I'd like to see us send down Masset and call up Broadway. Just cause. I just want Masset starting down there with Sisco.

I agree with you for the most part, however, I think in the case where Billingsley/Pelfrey or Ellsbury are in a trade that you need to be getting other pretty good guys in return (because they aren't on the level as those other prospects listed) and if you are going to move Mark you HAVE to make sure you get some stuff that is going to be here a long long time. I also think if the Sox are feeling that way they might as well try to market Jose Contreras, Jon Garland and Mark Buehrle for as much as they can get with them obviously picking up 2 to 3 HIGH HIGH Impact prospects for Garland/Buehrle and them obviously getting payroll flexibility by moving Contreras. I really don't buy into this in between rebuilding. However, if the Cubs could start by getting a couple starters for Jermaine Dye I'd be pretty damn happy but I still think you have to package him with either a Contreras or a reliever and the guys you get back will not be high impact guys, rather guys that for whatever reason were written off or have some sort of negative stigma surrounding them from there previous franchise (see Cedeno and Murton).

Owens has actually looked better this time up. I just question his bat speed. DJ pointed out about how on anything above the belt he tries to brings his hands from the bottom of the zone and up and that just slows you down. Mack continues to rake and with the way he's hitting he's going to open up some eyes as a potential tradeable chip (you could get a projectable bullpen arm for him possibly). You know a good contending team could use a bench player like Mack.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 11:28 AM) You caught me mid edit. I dont think Dye is worth much. I would love to see Murton or Cedeno on the southside. The radio has been with people talking about Buerhle going to the cubs. That is where I draw the line. Dye sure, go for it. I don't think the Cubs have the upper echelon prospect I would require to get Buehrle. I have actually started to lower my asking price for Buehrle but any Buehrle deal has to include ONE HIGH HIGH IMPACT PROSPECT (SUPER STAR POTENTIAL) plus another good to very good prospect. It used to include two high impact plus a very good one. Matt Kemp and Billingsley is my pipe dream, but I would settle for Kemp and Dodgers AA shortstop. But a deal with the Dodgers must involve Kemp. A deal with the BoSox must involve Bucholtz. A deal with the Mets must involve either Pelfrey and Milledge (because I Think there value is a little lower) or one of there other high high impact guys and someone like Heilman or a couple other lower level prospects with some upside.