Chisoxfn

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:59 PM) Daniels is nearly done. Not sure if he'll make much longer in Texas. His baseball background is incredibly thin. The Danks and Chris Young deals, along with giving up Cordero (and way too much for Lee when the Rangers were dead in the water) to the Brewers, signing Gagne...he's in far over his head. Ricciardi has had VERY mixed results in TOR and should be fired, but will fire his Rambo-esque manager first, DiPodesta was bad in LA and Epstein...well, it's hard to see how good Theo or Cashman would be unless you put them in the position of Dayton Moore in KC or down in Tampa Bay. Did I read something wrong because I swear I saw on a ticker somewhere that Daniels signed or was close to signing an extension with the Rangers? Edit: He signed a one year extension on June 19th

I have doubts as to whether Buehrle is around. I think Dye sticks around a while longer as teams are going to want to see him healthy before they are willing to give up what Kenny wants (otherwise you are best Dl'ing him, letting him get healthy in order to make sure he can play late this year and be 100% over the off-season. Than take your two draft picks for him as he will likely go to a team picking in the lower portion of the draft (ie >15).

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:51 PM) Based upon Williams' past history, I'm guessing there will be several names thrown into trade packages who were previously undiscussed. Garland, Contreras, Anderson, Carter, Haeger It also wouldn't shock me if at one point Williams sold some prospects that he isn't personally as eye on in order to get other talent that he thinks will help the team. And Flash...I just want to say I'm pretty much going to be in unison in terms of ripping the Sox if they don't get the appropriate package for some of these guys (there is no reason to force the issue with Dye or Buehrle as they will equate to picks of some sort). I could see selling Guchi or Uribe or guys like that for a little less than we may expect, but not Dye/Buehrle and I would love to see us get an upper echelon guy for Jose but I'd also be happy with a high upside lower level guy or two (as long as they truly had high upside). Oh and with all the money saved, go spend a few mill extra on the draft next year (as well as throw 6 figures the way of our 20th or so round pick whose name escapes me at the moment).

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:47 PM) Yeah, I think Seay was the straw that broke the camel's back. In retrospect, Boras did the Sox a favor with that one though. Definitely. I still find it funny that he eventually worked his way back from being a mega bust and is now a semi decent reliever for the Tigers (but god the Sox got lucky on that one cause that would have been the original Joe borchard like bust). However, the one thing that tends to bother me is that if the Sox get burned just once doing something, they tend to shy away from it for a long long time. Case in point, they pretty much will never offer another draft pick over slot money thanks to Joe Borchard not panning out (however, you know in advance that the draft is a crap shoot, however, you still have to know the more you spend both on your scouts as well as on being willing to give more money to players, enables you to have a far better player development system). I should also say the Sox are not known to be a "cheap" organization in terms of the draft but they also aren't the Angels (who consistently invest in picks, including those high impact projected top couple round guys that slide due to strong commits or high salary demands). I would love to see the Sox take guys like Jordan Danks (first round talent that slid or the guy they took around the 20th round this year) and convert a couple of them and get them signed for top couple of round money (ie you give a 20th rounder projected to go top 2 rounds the amount he would have gotten had he went there) because it would essentially allow you to have more first round picks than you otherwise did. QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:48 PM) The nice thing is that this off season, I don't see many of your listed teams spending big except the usual culprits (Yanks and Sawks). Cards have been crying poor the last few off seasons. Cubs have their hands tied somewhat with an impending sale. I don't see the Angels as needing to spend a ton of money. And just a hunch, the Tiger don't have a lot of holes and the are not going to go to Yankee level payroll. Borass may have some limits this off season. It will be really interesting to see what happens if ARod files. Speaking of which, are the Rangers abstainers from Boras clients since the Arod debacle? I can't think of any exceptions. Well Tex is a Boras client and I think I'm missing one or two other guys that they have. They definitely did get burned pretty badly by Boras though so I wouldn't be shocked if they did start straying from them (considering how much bigger the Rangers offer was than any other team...but again it is ownership and management that eventually agrees to meet Boras demands).

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:41 PM) It gets mentioned with Baltimore, but they lust after Teixera and just drafted Wieters, so they're definitely willing to make exceptions. Obviously Matt Bush went 1 bc Boras was repping Weaver and Drew. Not sure if that's still true for SD. A lot of talk that the Orioles took Weiters partly to open up/establish a relationship with Boras in preparation for the mega contract they will offer Tex. Weiters is a stud too, well worthy of where he was drafted (best catching prospect since Mauer). QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:40 PM) Didn't realize that he has nothing to do with the one-year deals prior to FA, although it makes sense. I can understand why the Sox wouldn't want to negotiate with Boras after drafting a high pick (e.g., Jeff Weaver), but if I were KW I'd just bite the bullet when it comes to the signing bonus, knowing that they're saving a ton of money by not negotiating with Boras during FA. I think the Sox were more upset with the Bobby Seay situation. Boras basically maneuvered around the system and the end result was Seay getting a fat deal to spurn the Sox and sign with the Devil Rays. Edit: At least I think it was Boras that rep'd Seay at the time.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:39 PM) Interesting. If more teams besides the White Sox (and possibly Dodgers) were more opposed to Borass clients, he may have a more difficult time being the "super agent". Until then, the White Sox are missing an attractive portion of the market. ... Or his clients may be missing playing in a great situation. As long as the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Cubs and to a lesser extent Angels, Tigers and Cards are willing to deal with you than you really are still a super agent. The bottom line is Boras clients typically are going to get major bucks and when that is the place the likely destination is inevitably to pretty much these places and these places only (with the rare exceptions such as the Mariners going heft for Adrian Beltre). Obviously not all the guys he reps are like that but the vast majority that he hard lines with are.

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:35 PM) You shouldn't read something into a written post. Maybe I should have used I don't think I ever have talked bad about a fellow soxtalk poster Oh ya, I kind of figured you were making a point based on some of the other posters on the site making generic comments similar to that so I figured I'd make a generic post back (in no way was I meaning to imply you as one of those that calls other people bad fans...in fact you have long been one of the posters that I think exemplifies this place).

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:34 PM) Some posts have implied, but I am curious. Are there any other teams openly opposed to dealing with Boras? I don't think any are as open with it but I know the Dodgers have been trending away from Boras clients in the recent years (since Ned Colletti took over). In the past the Dodgers were almost entirely repped by Boras (them and the Cubs probably have had the most Boras clients over the past 5-10 years). I would also imagine that quite a few other teams are far more opposed than the Sox openly admit when it comes to negotiating with Boras clients (pretty much most of the non 80 mill plus payroll teams). QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:34 PM) Eh, that's usually not much of a problem. They were able to sign Crede to two 1 year contracts during his first two ARB eligible seasons with no problem. Usually Boras doesn't even get involved in the 1 year ARB eligible contracts, he just lets an associate work those out. Scott boras really only gets involved with big time draft picks and big time free agents. He has far too many clients to be worrying about a couple arb eligible players. In the past that was different, but he has lost a bit of power in the draft since he has so many major high profile players that are set to make a lot more money. It was earlier in his career where he really caused some major headaches for teams in the draft (not quite as much lately...he can still be tough on ocassion though, hence Weaver and Drew dropping a couple years back).

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:30 PM) Wouldn't Boras be involved in negotiating Danks' contract during the arbitration-elibible years? That's what I was referring to. If not, my mistake. Yes, but either way all if the two sides disagree you just go to arbitration. You also have to remember the Sox dealt with Boras in regards to Crede with arbitration and were able to work out deals.

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:21 PM) You HAVE to make it to the game. A true Sox fan will go to any game he/she can get to even if the team sucks at the time. I just want to say that I think any of us that have been coming to this place consistently over the years are clearly Sox fans. No reason to think one of us is any better than the other.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:22 PM) Thanks for the info Kalpse. I just don't agree with the whole not dealing with Boras idea. To me it comes across as cheap, this years draft was a perfect example. We drafted the Poreda kid instead of the Porcello kid just because he is represented by Boras. But then the Tigers go ahead and draft Porcello. We are in the 3rd largest market in the U.S. you would think if Detroit can afford to deal with Boras, we should be able to. Boras always seems to have the most talented players, but we refuse to deal with him. I just don't get it. That said, look how many teams made the same decision. You should deal with Boras if the demands are worthy but if drafting the Boras client is going to cost you way more than the player is worth or prevent you from being able to go above slot money later on in the draft than it is a mistake. I just think the Sox should take it on a case by case basis. I also think they are pretty accurate in terms of not dealing with Boras in free agency, but they shouldn't just ignore the player. No reason you don't make contact if a player interests you, but if it is going to be a poor financial/baseball decision to give them the money the player is asking than you move on and find someone else (but you should at least take the time to inquire).

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 03:16 PM) It's funny because the exact opposite of what he said is true. If the White Sox as well as other teams ahead of them in the draft refuse to deal with Boras clients then the Boras players will drop from where they were supposed to go and players the Sox may have been interested in who are not Boras clients will end up being selected earlier in the draft than they probably should be often times before it is time for the Sox to pick. So in other words he's already perpetuating falsehoods as fact. After 3 years Danks will be eligible for ARBITRATION meaning Boras will still have to wait another 3 years to get Danks his big payday. So in other words, this shouldn't become a problem until 2013, assuming Danks is still with the team at that time and the planet isn't run by giant, cyborg ants or some s***. Seriously....Danks is under control for a long time. However, I have no problem with them passing on Boras players if they are going to ask for ridiculous money, that said you should still call him up and talk to him about what it would take to sign his client if they drafted him (cause it could very well be a more than fair deal).

Technically it would be Ryan Sweeney and Gavin Floyd. However, I am also very excited to see a couple of those other pitchers. Russell is not ready but Egbert/Gio could be interesting guys to watch late in the season (as they get there feet wet). I also really look forward to seeing Richar play.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:57 PM) Hughes, Gallardo and Homer Bailey are the three untouchable pitching prospects in baseball. Joba and Kennedy are much more realistic. I'd take Melky and Kennedy for Buehrle. Ya, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Hughes isn't the best pitching prospect in baseball though, imo. He's very good but there is no guarantee of success (even based on the one good start he had with the Yanks). And no I think the odds are slim, still you never know what could happen (but in all liklihood it would have to involve Cashman basically being told by Kenny that he's going to the Red Sox unless you step up your offer).

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:23 PM) um. i was dead serious... Let me go out on a limb right now and say bringing up Phil Hughes' name in any talk is just utterly insane. He will not be traded by the Yankees... I don't think he will either. But if things get rough for the Yanks and Buehrle is willing to negotiate and sign an extension (ie the team gets a window to negotiate) than I do think it could become a possibility (albeit a rare one).

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) The White Palace. Let me know if/when you are coming out. We have plenty of tickets avaliable. Also I don't know how pleased I will to be sitting at the Bears games 6+ months pregnant. At least the baby in the oven will keep you a bit warmer. God was it cold that day....but what an amazing night (Jim walking out of the bathroom as we are going nuts over PK's grand slam....Pods walk off...wow).

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:16 PM) This is just a guess but sicne they had to take blood I'm guessing he refused to blow. That in itself make himself look guilty of something and probably a big factor in why they said adios. You know me and normally I would be up to no good being out at 3am also.. but these days.. when the mood strikes for a Klondike bar, one must go get a Klondike bar. Haha, this past weekend it was Chicken and Waffles for me and they were freaking amazing. Almost as good as the food at that breakfast place that one Soxfest (that was some of the best late night breakfast ever). s***, I need to get some vacation in and get back out to Chicago (especially now that I should be able to pick up seats with ease in September, lol).

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:09 PM) KW is kinda in a tough spot. I know he won a world series. But in post world series land he will be known as the guy who traded Mark Buehrle. IF the players he gets back do good, people will be fine with it. If the player's he gets back suck or only play o.k. Than he'll never live it down. As much as I love Buehrle...I love the 05 season more (it is my favorite season of any sports that I follow) and I will always cheer for the players on that team and the management that put together that season together (even if I call them bums for there play on the field or moves made down the road, my long term memory of all of them will be great thanks to 05).

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:11 PM) The two draft picks would undoubtably be better than that -- it's a lousy trade for the Sox. But no team will give up even a single top 40 prospect for Buehrle and KW wants "major league ready" players. To me, that means mediocre youngish veterans (not that Heilman is young). I just think Sox fans are tremendously overestimating the market for Buehrle. Than fine...don't make a deal. I think if I were in that situation I'd take my chances and give up a Fields/Danks to make a move but thats just me. I was always willing to trade Bmac if the situation was right as well (and I was a huge Bmac supporter throughout his minor league and major league career). My point is if teams don't want to give it up, you don't have to trade the guys. I do think with there being a wide open field, that the best starting pitcher available will inevitably command two top prospects plus a 3rd high risk/high reward type of player/prospect (in the Willy Mo Pena or Gavin Floyd mold). I say that because I'm pretty sure Kenny will have multiple teams offering and will be able to leverage those offers to get some darn good talent. For example, say Boston is close to giving up a strong package, who is to say that the Yanks don't finally bite on Hughes to bolster there old rotation and keep him away from the Yanks (maybe to do so the Yanks would have to get a window and agree to a deal with Buehrle but you never know, if they could ink him to a big money deal I could see them being willing to move Hughes)

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:03 PM) Nope. They are not waiting for the BAC results. Interesting. I guess they are just blaming him for being in the situation. I know I've been out many a times around 3 AM (usually heading back home or having grub at a Denny's type of place). That said if I have drank I always have a sober driver (and sometimes it is me that is the sober driver). I consider myself a responsible person even though I have a lot of late weekeend nights but I don't have the past that Tank has. Still I find it funny people lament someone for being out at 3 when I'm sure at that age they did it too (not taking his prior factors into consideration).

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:06 PM) I would give the money/years to Buehrle. However, I think it's hard for KW to judge things right now because he has no clue how much payroll he'll free up with the trades. If we do lose these guys, expect us to be in the running for Zambrano as a way to make it look like we're not slashing our payroll/rebuilding. If they added a Zambrano to replace Buehrle, I'd think this team could still compete next year (even after the firesale) as it would likely have a rotation with Garland, Javier, Zambrano and hopefully Danks and Floyd or Pelfrey or whomever (assuming Danks can make the adjustments and continue to grow). That is definitely a capable rotation. The key is to get a nice young nucleus of position players around it (and Kenny has the resources to get that type of talent during the firesale as well as the off-season via some other moves).

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) All good points...I think a Heilman & Gotay package for Buehrle would be about market value. And yes, the White Sox do have the worst young talent & minor league system in either league. It's sad that I can only agree.... Bahaha....the two draft picks would be better. Thanks but no thanks.

Eh...I think the club will have a hard time getting stuff for Iguchi, Uribe, and maybe Pods/Erstad but they will have takers for Dye, Contreras, Buehrle, and MacDougall/Thornton (if the Sox want to move them). I also think a lot of teams would like a veteran bench player like Mack on the squad and some teams would definitely consider picking up Erstad's grittiness to come off the bench down the stretch (if he was healthy and no I'm not saying you'd get much for him).

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) If I had a nickel for every time I read "Judy" on this website... oye ve. Don't look at me....I think everyone knows I love Jon (and you know all too well that I love Wee Willie and consistently blasted Sox mgmt for not giving him enough of an opportunity). I do not feel that way about Brian Anderson anymore (he will not ever play for the Sox and I don't blame them). By the way, I appreciate the comments about the players giving up. I hadn't realized they pretty much didn't care (even though it looked that way on the field). But ya, it is funny...we would have dealt Crede and Garland for a bag of baseballs instead of that world series ring they helped get the club. QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:02 PM) What is the difference between Mark Buehrle and Mike Hampton circa 2000? I'll post some numbers and more analysis later but for now what's keeping Buehrle's pending 5+ year contract from being just as bad as Hampton's? Well for one, Buehrle hopefully won't be dumb enough to go to Coors.