Chisoxfn

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:57 AM) The difference between Flowers and our OFs is that all of our OFs have upside. So while a 2-win upgrade would feel like a 2-win upgrade anywhere, you're far, far less likely to get it out of Flowers than you are out of Eaton or even Garcia. Obviously I've convinced myself Alexei is much more likely to turn up for 2-wins as well. At 2B, we at least have a couple defenders and several prospects who could break out. Catcher is a wasteland. i agree that 3B is just as big a problem, maybe moreso. But I don't think we should be ready to tolerate replacement-level at any point on the diamond. Even if it means picking up some zombie veteran who can give us 1 WAR for a few million bucks. I would argue the upside of Garcia, but it depends on how you view his defensive upside. If you don't think it is significant, then it would take massive offensive upside to make him very valuable. I think 3B and Corner outfield are massive holes. I'd also argue shortstop is as well, but again, shortstop is a bit of a wasteland (although not to the same extent as catcher). Sure if you have someone above average their, it is a major win, but we fail so significantly in the corner outfield and at 3B. I won't discuss 2B because I think we have internal options.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:49 AM) I disagreed last year with this sentiment and said the power would come from the guys they have. Now I actually think that the lack of power is becoming a major concern. We're 28th in the big leagues in HR and there's no obvious help coming in that department unless Abreu suddenly finds whatever he had last year or Garcia completely revamps his approach. Esp. in the ballpark we play in, that's terrible. For a front office that focused on "bringing in power bats", which it sure looked like they were...28th in the big leagues in HR is not something they should be particularly proud of. We could maybe get by with that if we had a lot of really good hitters overall, maybe that is the solution since we're not likely to be finding those guys any time soon...but man, it really would be nice to hit a ball out of the ballpark on occasion. We're not going to be able to put up with very many "below replacement" players if we have to rely on every position being a solid, low-power hitter. Problem is we are 28th in homers so typically when you are light on power, you would presume you are high on speed and defense (since usually their are few players who can run, hit for power, and play awesome defense), but we are light on power and light on top baserunning and elite difference. Literally it is hard to find a team that from a position player perspective is as futile as the White Sox, when you consider the trifecta of defense / baserunning / hitting.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:33 AM) Matheny also doesn't have a passive attitude either. He's a cerebral former catcher with great leadership skills. Passive attitude has nothing to do with this. He might be smarter or better or any of the other, but facts are facts. He had zero coaching experience prior. Whether being a catcher made him smarter or not could be true, it might not. Point is he had no previous major league experience, but he is widely considered a great manager. I also don't think 1 year or two years as an assistant really does that much either. Being a play for 15 seasons teaches you a lot. One major difference is Matheny came into an organization with a history and a way about doing things and developing players that was proven and successful and in theory inherited that (and was really developed within that philosophy himself). Robin came into one that had made the change to Buddy Bell and his methods but I think we've gotten to a long enough range where we can say that hasn't worked. I think you can say the GM could change that but it means total culture change everywhere and we haven't necessarily had that. If I am the Sox, I look at Gardy who came from an organization with a rather successful track record of building an organizational philosophy built around fundementals and I see if he can help change that culture and instill it. Doesn't mean everyone is fired and it won't change overnight, but you get everyone on the same page from what is hopefully a proven track record of success and you foster and build it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:07 AM) Maybe it's time to ask the question again...what haven't they changed? They haven't changed the way they treat minor leaguers, they haven't improved their effectiveness in that, they haven't change the philosophy of buying expensive, mid-level free agents, they haven't changed the philosophy of sacrificing depth for front line guys, they haven't changed their philosophy on defense, they haven't changed anything that allows them to turn what talent they do acquire into big league contributors. Changing the names on the door but continuing to do things that are failing consistently is not likely to change the consistent record of failure. One key thing left out...if it was the owner pushing that, is what the GM's response was? Did the GM think this would work? Did the GM advise against it? Did the GM say that there was a particularly high risk that things would go wrong and it would cause a major setback that would hurt the team even in 2016-2017? Your statements suggest the GM was forced unwillingly into the type of moves that continue failing for this team. If the GM cautioned against those moves in private, which we'll never know, fine that's a logical reason to hold onto him and maybe we'll actually get the owner who learns his lesson. If not, if the GM was on board with them, then the GM endorsed that failure just as much. This is the one spot that you and I disagree, but I don't think much of what we did necessarily set us back that much. I don't think LaRoche contract decimated the club and I don't think the Melky deal did either, but I suppose that one was more risky given the extra years. I still think you can spin Shark today and get the equivalent of what we gave up (and as I've long said we traded from a surplus given the Semien was the primary chip). In fact, I think we could get more, so one could argue (and none of us were privy to the conversations) that Kenny and Rick told JR, okay, we can try to make a push, give it our best, but whatever we do, we will ensure ourselves we have ability to pivot after this year depending on how things go (as we know this team can only contend if all of these things go right vs. even with x and y going against us, we'll still contend). No point in you and I arguing this back and forth since we both see these differently regarding what the Sox did this off-season. You think it set us back, I happen to have a differing opinion, but that is a seperate argument. None of us know that conversations between JR / Rick / Kenny and what went down and we also don't know strategically what they have in mind, but my presumption is we'll at least find out if our return for Shark exceeds what we gave up (on paper) in the next few days.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:03 AM) The main point in all of this that's missed is that Ventura has no previous coaching experience on any level outside of his kids' teams. Who gets hired to a top level job by any sane/employed person that has zero experience in lower levels to show that they actually know what they're doing? Mike Matheny didn't have any experience.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:58 AM) But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans. Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it. I don't disagree with anything that you said, but I also think we have decided that Hanh is our guy and I think he deserves that shot and Kenny should be praised for what he did, but he also wants to be in the details. Yes, having multiple guys who know things and are smart baseball people are great, but I think in this case, the direction should come from Hahn. We clearly think he is a sharp bright mind and right now Kenny is still pretty involved. Clearly JR likes it that way and has a lot of faith in Kenny (and to a large extent, rightfully so), but we have two guys that want to be fully involved and that can lead to competing priorities. That said, a lot of what happened this off-season, and the speed in which it occurred, had to do with JR's wishes. However, the lack of a farm system, etc, did happen largely under Kenny's watch so we were put in this position to rebuild under Kenny and yes, under Kenny we also won a world series and at times looked like we could be major players for a long time. Unfortunately, on field performance largely didn't work itself out and unfortunately, it doesn't seem to just be bad luck, as we have consistently under performed (or so it would appear) and at some point I think it isn't bad luck, but probably something we are doing wrong as an organization.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:36 AM) So they changed the manager, and the GM, and admits JR isn't going anywhere...why doesn't this article cut out the BS and directly say what it wants to say? It's obvious Lip wants KW's head.I think Hahn deserves his chance to shine on his own. I also think we need a cultural change from a player development perspective. I am not saying someone else would do a better job then Robin, necessarily, but I do think Gardenhire is the type of guy that has a track record of success (and yes, when he had lousy players, his team stunk too, so players matter and it is why under no scenario am I saying this is all Robin's fault, but I also don't think Robin is anything special) and I think our problems on player development are deep grained and the poor fundamentals seem to keep coming through so I would like a manager who has a real philosophy that he can push down, especially on the position side and Gardy and the Twins philosophies are ones that I would support and I do think it would be a positive culture change for this organization. Showalter is another one of those guys but obviously he isn't available.

Great piece Lip and I wonder if the best thing for the organization would have been to let Ken Williams go to Toronto (maybe we'd have even gotten a prospect) in the off-season. I commend Kenny and think he was extremely creative and he kept us relevant. He was never afraid to swing for the fences and he built the first White Sox world series champion you / I were able to see. However, he's been here a long time and we have failed to go on a sustainable run. We have a new guy here, Rick Hahn, who while he came up and worked in this organization, he brings his own fresh ideas and with Kenny involved, it is hard for any of us to get a read on who Rick Hahn is. I think at this point, Kenny should move his separate ways so he can try new things (and Kenny himself has said numerous times, he misses the details, he misses the GM duties) and we should see what Rick can do. I do think that whatever happens, we need an organizational change in the minors, with a focus being on the position side. The hard part is, those types of changes take a long time to evaluate progress, but the Buddy Bell era has produced absolutely zilch when it comes to position talent. We have done extremely well on the pitching side and I think that is a credit of the consistent philosphy preached throughout the organization when it comes to arms and it is a testament to Coop, Hahn, Kenny, all the minor league pitching coaches and of course the scouts. Sverson was supposedly doing something similar, but I think the culture from the position side comes down from the manager and even the GM and we need to do something like the Twins did for so long under Tom Kelly (and eventually Gardy). To be frank, I think the Sox turning control of the baseball responsibilities to someone like Gardy (while retaining Coop) would be a tremendous boom for the Sox.

Thought it might be beneficial to have a thread talking about some potential catching prospetcs, given it might be a position that Hahn targets. I would point out that in terms of priority, I'd put catcher behind 3B, SS, and to be frank, a corner outfield spot (unfortunately, that corner outfield spot can only be opened up by moving a DH or one of our other outfielders). I would point out that if a team were interested in an outfielder and had a AAA catcher that we thought could develop into a top 10 catcher I would make that trade. One name that could be out their is Austin Barnes of the Dodgers. Dodgers just called him up as they put AJ Ellis (their current backup) on the DL. Dodgers don't have to move him (as Ellis is 34) but Grandal clearly is lodged in his path (unless Dodgers are willing to move Grandal for pitching). Sox have some parts that match up and I'll be frank, I'd be on board with a deal involving one of our pitchers and a reliever (and if they want a backup, we could give them Soto) for Puig and Barnes. I'd probably be willing to throw in a prospect. I'd also have interest in Guerrero if the Sox could work something out with Guerrero. Guerrero's trade value has to be near nil and his production has fallen and he hasn't gotten much any playing time (which based upon what I've read in the LA Times, is a big driver of his offensive struggles). He isn't playing because his defense doesn't play at 3rd, however, I don't know that it is because he can't play third. It has more to do with his terrible contract and how he'd be a FA had the Dodgers sent him down (or had the right to) so he really never got much of an opportunity to work on his defense at 3rd (where he doesn't have a lot of experience) or in the outfield. I think his bat plays (tools are strong) and the skillset is their. If we could work something out with him (to keep him around in the future), their could be some nice upside in getting Guerrero and giving him the time now to put in the work at 3rd (as long as our scouts see the potential to play their) and you might even be able to get a 3rd basemen of the future. No idea how willing Guerrero is to work with a team but Sox could clearly offer him plenty of at bats. 27 years old and in his first time in the minors (last year, in a shortened season due to his ear being bit off by Miguel Olivo) he put up a .994 OPS with 17 homers in 77 games (15 walks and 55 strikeouts).

Unfortunately, these pieces are far more entertaining then this season. I really can't think of another season, outside of the 1995 season (after the strike ended). I had expectations of a world series that year and the guys that looked like young aces faltered. I suppose the year after was another disappointing, having added Albert Belle to the team. A duo of Thomas and Belle could have been the greatest ever. Crazy how the Sox have had a few different teams (those 90 teams) and then again in the early 2000's and really again after 05 (that 06 team reloaded with Thome and faltered in the 2nd half) where we had chances to be a perennial division winner (playoffs are a crapshoot....while I think the goal every year is to win the world series, its best to build your team to make the playoffs every year, if you do that, your odds of winning the series grow greatly).

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 08:25 AM) and still we watch, hoping for miracles. Addicts. Just hoping that the next series of moves are in our favor. Sox are due for some good luck, right?

This team could use a guy like Showalter. Buck would be just the right voice for this club. Too bad he's in Baltimore. If anyone could solve fundemental issues and change a culture, it would be Buck. I'll be honest, as much as it cringes me, I'd also fully support Dusty Baker (I realize he runs pitchers into the ground, but he's also been a pretty consistent winner despite his hatred for all things sabs). Won a lot in San Fran, won with the Cubs (hard to do), and then again with the Reds (who thought he didn't do enough, so they got rid of him, and then the Reds turned into a bigger dumpster fire). Okay so Baker probably isn't the actual solution, but I think even more so in this era of pitching, the AL is going to have to adjust and move to a more NL style of play. That 1 run makes a much larger difference in an ERA where runs are down and therefore the execution, the baserunning, the little things that became so watered down in the steroid era (and even more waterdown in the AL where the DH's were the most fully loaded roiders around) are now so critical and a lot of these AL squads just aren't as schooled in it or the philosphies still seem to be a bit in the stoneage. Sox philosophy sure seems like it. The pitching and belief to have strong pitching, we can all agree with. But we have lousy baserunning and lousy defense. To me, that is inexcusable without having some massive clotters out their who can out homer everyone.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 07:27 AM) Gordon Beckham supposedly needs to be released. His WAR -0.1. Eduardo Escobar is the best SS the Sox have produced recently according to you, his WAR -0.5. Facts suck when hyperbole is available. Semien's 0.6 WAR and falling and 28 errors at SS doesn't exactly warrant long term answer at that position. Nor does it suggest he would make a difference on the 2015 White Sox. The A's were always insane to think Semien could play at short. If you move him to 2B, you have some value, but his value is easily tradeable for a guy like Shark. No matter what has happened with Shark and our season, I still believe we will get better prospects back for Shark then we gave up (even with Shark's performance being down a bit). We also traded from a surplus (we have a million potential 2B candidates).

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 07:33 PM) L. Garcia in my opinion is another one of those "Four A" players (and the Sox have a bunch of them). Impressive stats in the minor leagues but when they get their chance at the major league level they can't do a thing. Garcia had a chance last year and didn't show much. Sox need to do better than him. Mark Leury wasn't ever highly touted. He probably will find his way somewhere at some point (for another organization) as he has some useful skills. Problem is, he just isn't near the defensive player the current crop of guys are (Sanchez / Saladino) and both Saladino / Sanchez have better tools, including the hit tool. I don't know if either will hit enough to be starters or be elite enough defensively, but I think they are winning ball players (cliche, yes) from the perspective that they play good defense, are smart and good baserunners, have decent bat control, etc. Micah is the guy with the upside but I am all for giving plenty of at bats to all three to see what we have. Very little risk given our current situation and it gives the Sox front office far more time to evaluate these guys. I'd also like to point out that we aren't talking about top prospects here, so if we can hit on these guys, you get way more upside then selling them to someone else. And there are a plenty of these type of players who turn out to be good, quality players.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 04:49 PM) Agreed, time to get him some much needed MLB at bats Completely agree. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Ramirez moved soon to create room for the at bats of all of our young middle infield prospects (excluding Anderson...well until his Sept callup).

QUOTE (Bigsoxhurt35 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 04:12 PM) I'm not a fan of moving him but that's the package that we'd need. I'll be honest, I'd trade Sale for any three in that group.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 04:45 PM) Morales is in the same division as the Sox pretty much facing the same pitchers minus his own team mates. LaRoche was a bad signing . Way too old and terrible stats against lefties, even his 2nd half last year which normally was his strong suit came way down and could be construed as more evidence of decline. And they still play him against lefties . That's really sad. I'm pretty sure I remember Balta saying that the Sox would do just that and he's been right. Someone should pull the LaRoche signing thread. I can't remember if I said anything about it at the time . Morales didn't have to adjust to league's like LaRoche. LaRoche is also notorious slow starter (that said I know he has struggled a lot the past month).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 02:34 PM) I could see the Yankees looking at his numbers as presented in that article and taking a flyer on him also. Another fair point. The thing I like about both teams is they could have some intriguing C listers who have some potential change of scenery upside. If we could get a nice arm that is either raw and could maybe start or a projectable reliever (maybe failed minor league starter with a big arm), I'd be on board. Would be awesome to get a competitive balance pick but not sure Pirates would give that up for Alexei (never know). Probably best bet is fine a young foreign player who is still years away that you think has some upside (1 in 100 odds but at least you see some raw tools).

Pirates (as Balta suggested) would be a pretty good fit for Alexei.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 12:42 PM) They can't even touch the idea of cutting Beckham loose. Jeez. To be frank, Beckham has been more valuable then Bon (or said another way, a little less terrible) so I don't really have a problem keeping Beckham over him. Bottom line is Beckham was the 3rd worst positional player on the roster, which really says something. The Sox have quite a few very good to elite players and then a lot of guys who suck. Not a lot of just solid baseball players. The nice thing is, I actually think we have a few that look like they can be that (Micah / Sanchez / Saladino). I'm not sure whether they are all starters, in fact, I suspect only 1 is (Micah) but I think the other two have a place on a good roster and could prove me wrong if they hit a little better then I think they are capable of. And with Sanchez glove, if he could play above average D at SS, then I would think his bat comes around to play at short in this era. Saladino could fit that same description.

QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 12:30 PM) Who else is going to play SS next year? That's my thoughts. I don't think there is a viable option. Like the article said, he will end closer to his career averages. I would assume he finished in the .250-.260 range and with 10HR's and 60RBI. Still somewhat solid defense. If you can find me someone who can do that next year I'll take it. I guess you can make the argument maybe Saladino .... but he will not hit for doubles like Alexei does. People forget that stat. He had 35 doubles last year. Top 10 in baseball was 39. Also has had over 20SB over the past 3 years. Alexei is not our problem. Sure he's been bad this year. But he should be penciled in as our SS next year. Maybe give a few extra starts to Saladino who plays our Utililty role next year. Fill 3B and Catcher. Those are our black holes. 2B too ... but lets be honest .... they're gonna keep trying with Johnson and Sanchez. If you wanted to go another direction, you maybe see if you get lucky and Sanchez or Saladino hits enough and prove their glove plays at shortstop. To do that, you'd have to move Ramirez and basically ensure that Micah / Saladino / Sanchez all get significant playing time and at bats to get better intel on where you project everyone. I would be perfectly fine with that, as long as the Sox understand that if they tend to contend and they don't see something they like, they have to either make a FA signing (could very well bring Alexei back at that point or someone else as a stop gap to Tim Anderson) or they need to use chips to acquire someone (or to be frank, they could acquire that person in the Shark deal).

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 12:15 PM) Very happy to see Micah's development in AAA after being sent down. I really cannot take anymore Carlos Sanchez. He's a great little fielder but he just doesn't have the bat speed to be an everyday player. He has a .214 wOBA which, if he had enough PAs, would be the worst among MLB players. He also had the fifth worst percentage of hard hit balls according to Fangraphs. I think we have enough at bats to go around at 3B / SS / 2B if the Sox thought they saw enough in these guys and were ready to acquire someone else at one of those positions depending on how they evaluate everyone based upon their collective minor league careers to date, tools, and of course what they show at the major league level. This of course is dependent on moving Ramirez.

We open it up right around the trade deadline specifically for rumors, etc. It gets closed again when the rumors die down (typically sometime in August...given their tends to be a lot of news around waiver moves...that said, we'll see what is going on with the Sox and then make that call). I don't see Sox making a lot of waiver deals, although I would presume that Alexei / LaRoche / Danks would be potential candidates.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 10:53 AM) He is the 8th highest paid SS in baseball and this year is one of the worst overall. I wouldn't offer more than $3 Mil and if he refuses worse case pick up someone who can defend. Next year is another rebuild in the 3 year plan so you monitor Anderson and determine his future and the see who you can get in 2016. I think Ramirez gets more then 3M. I'd give him an incentive laden deal that guaranteed him around 5 and gave him upside for another 3 - 5. This could all change by the end of the season.

Excited to see what he does in some more extended play.