GreenSox

So it looks like Cooper has fixed Shields....at least for now. 4 good starts in a row; went 8 last night. Assuming Hahn has seen reality re this team's chances.... is now the time to flip him?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 16, 2016 -> 03:02 PM) You need a clause in there. "They've done a good job since date x" or something like that. They did a terrible job trying to build a competitive team last year and now they're stuck with a couple more years of rebuilding because of how terrible that job was. So far they're making reasonable moves in trying to recover from their self-made debacle. It was partially self-made. The Padres were a 77 win team when he took over. At least he had the awareness to reverse course quickly when his team won 74 games. He's done a good job recovering; even Myers, whom he overpaid for, probably has much of his trade value resurrected. Hahn won 76 and kept plugging. We'll see.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2016 -> 12:25 PM) It is the home run derby, not the batting average derby. It literally doesn't matter a bit what his batting average was for the contest. He also didn't "expect" it. He was asked to do it by Major League Baseball, which is an honor that players shouldn't take lightly. He was giddy about playing that thing. It's a common exhibition. The All Star Game is an honor. OPS in the .660 range last year post home run derby. Off to a roaring start this year: 1/8 and can't hit a sacrifice fly. Maybe a different approach toward the season's second half might have been in order. It's summer holiday camp.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 17, 2016 -> 12:23 PM) Greg: To add to your post Torborg at least got his feet wet in the major leagues as a manager with a bad Indians team. At least he came into the Sox job with an understanding of things and how to do it at the big league level. Robin had zero experience, never coached or managed a day in his life before he took the Sox on the field opening day, 2012. Mark Lamont and Manuel had 5-6 years of experience as coaches. KW's two managers: Guillen had 3 Ventura had 0.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Jul 15, 2016 -> 08:00 PM) Same could be said about Burns which is why I mentioned an Avi for Burns swap. That doesn't mean Oakland would be interested, just an idea. Even swap.

Preller has done an interesting job. After spending a season "going for it" he saw the reality and went the other way. This was a steal. He got more for Kimbrall than he paid when trading for him...a nice bit of arbitrage there. And he's doing a ton internationally.

Jacob Turner - centerpiece of Anibal Sanchez trade. Another one of Hahn's boys -paid $1.5 mill for him. Hope he throws well.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Jul 16, 2016 -> 11:47 PM) There's an opportunity to extend him as well. He has 5-6 years of good performance left, and the team that trades for him has 2 of those years and the highest probability of getting the rest. Yes, that was some of the rationale for the Shark rent, the Frazier semi-rent. He'll be a FA in 1.5 years. Sign him then. Sox aren't winning now with or without him. He he may not be worthy of a 5 year extension anyway. Players deteriorate.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jul 17, 2016 -> 01:45 AM) Let's put it this way... When the pinch ran Saladino for Melky in the 9th - I was pissed. Why? Because I wanted a contact hitter like Saladino up there for Frazier in that situation. The Sox won't give Saladino 1 or 2 spot starts a week in this bottom 1/3 offense; they certainly won't use him as pinch hitter for one of their best hitters (or one they perceive as such). The reality is that Saladino has improved a lot as a hitter this year (albeit in a small sample size). But once the White Sox org. deems someone, especially a young player, as worthy of a limited role, that's that. As for Frazier, I certainly hope he had a rousing, delightful time playing home run derby, he so begged the Sox to allow him to do.

On a different subject, Henry Owens looks counterfeit to me...maybe a 5th starter or AAAA player. He's been in that top prospect mode for too long, esp considering Red Sox pitching issues. Avoid.

Yes, great work by Shields. I don't know if it's sustainable considering the peripherals, but he's done his job. How about that Todd Frazier!

Ventura didn't put together this team. Ventura's actually cut down on some of the stupid moves he once did with regularity: pinch running for the team's best hitter; bunting.

he's probably available. Most OPS .703 DHs are.

Still no Saladino.

They could fix catcher defense much cheaper than Lucroy will cost. Another short term focused move so people can howl at the moon...no thanks.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 15, 2016 -> 07:53 PM) In all reality, Guerra is a fluke. The entirety of MLB passed on him what, a dozen times? Maybe more? Using him as an example of failed player recognition is more of an indictment of the science than the White Sox. The guy is 31.. One difference- Guerra was on the Whitesox. He was not on those other teams recently. Cooper wouldn't use him. Sure he was a fluke. But flukes happen. Guerra pitched off the charts in Charlotte before being called up. Just need to be aware when it's your good fortune. No need to make excuses for Cooper and the rest of the evaluators. That was a poor job with personnel. When Hahn abruptly cut the rebuild short, he had 5 years of Q and Sale. Now it's down to 3.5 years with little progress made. Foolishly saddled team with 2.5 years of Shields. What to do?

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 15, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) I think a guy like Peter Bourjos could be a target. White Sox have been interested in him in the past. Talked about sending Hector Santiago to Angels for him. Very good defender, but unless there's something seriously wrong with Shuck's defense, I don't see the point. Shuck has started to hit well now that he's been playing. Now he's not on another team and wasn't good 3 years ago, so Hahn is likely unimpressed. But instead of hunting for a CF, they might hold sway and see how Morneau does. Because right now, DH is a far bigger deficit.

The Sox have no pitching depth in the upper minors, despite all of these plaudits about their expertise in developing pitchers. No one in AAA; no one close in AA except for Fulmer. This team has 2 guys in the rotation who are 5th starters WHEN they pitch well (which is not all of the time). Rodon is pitching like a #5 lately. Can't trade pitching. Baseball is a young man's game. Trades for Blackmond have some logic behind them. Trades for Cargo are obsolete. The biggest need is a DH. So far, Shuck has actually handled CF and he's hitting a lot better. Avi, not so much. We'll see about Morneau for DH. Don't see the need for urgency or impatience, especially since playoff chances are small with or without some addition. Also, it may be that Morneau is worse than Shuck, in which case Hahn would have traded for the wrong position.

It would be nice to trade some middle infield depth for a young OF, but they'll only get utility infielder value for it (i.e. extreme little value) because they don't play Easily could have had Saladino start the year instead of the "proven veteran" to get more insight (and equal production) to minimize the chances of Hahn devaluing his own players again. In the trade for Samardizja and likely for Frazier, the Sox were able to recover some of Rick Hahn's devaluation via the draft pick; doubt it happens this time.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 09:43 AM) I'm sorry man, but this post is way off. The Giants gave Brandon Crawford three years to develop? Oh, well the White Sox gave Gordon Beckham FIVE YEARS. For every Marcus Semien or Micah Johnson, there is an Avisail Garcia, Tyler Flowers, or Dayan Viciedo. And now there are Marcus Semien and Trayce Thompson. (and soon to be, imo, Tyler Saladino). Ability to evaluate talent, including your own, and willingness to develop it is part of it. There's a balance to be drawn. And trading excess for one or two year players, considering the state of this org., is madness. And Flowers played a defense-first position; he handled the position defensively. I get it that everyone was sick of him; i was sick of him. But the veteran replacements have "proven" to be a downgrade. It will be interesting to see if the Sox try to extend Frazier. He'll have to stop his Chris Carter impression to make that worthwhile; and in the last couple of weeks he seemed to be making progress in that regard.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 10:46 PM) I would still trade unproven prospects for proven MLB pitching. If the A's really wanted Semien, so be it. He was unproven and the Sox needed a RHP starter to go with Sale, Q and Rodon. But what they did was trade "unproven prospects" for ONE YEAR of a major league pitcher; and this was a 73 win team that no matter how many "proven veterans" were stacked onto the team was unlikely to contend. That's the kind of move that 82-86 win teams make to get over the top. Not 73 win teams that need to build a core. Under this approach, Hahn, were he the GM of the Giants, would have traded away 1/2 of his all-star infield. Brandon Crawford didn't hit a lick his first THREE years with the Giants. And Caufield is right...the Sox really don't give non-highly touted prospects much of a chance. Micah was done after 3 weeks; couldn't wait to move Tracye and Semien. Saladino and Sanchez got what have to be considered lengthy auditions for this organization (but not for others) and were jettisoned back to utility or AAA roles. Cooper has jettisoned pitchers who can pitch (but who struggled in their 3 appearance auditions). This is not the way to build an organization. Yes, the Sox had some middle infield excess (still do really). So why not use it to get, say, a young OF? That's how we got Eaton...some young starting pitching for a YOUNG outfielder. The Giants are a good team to emulate. Constantly improving their organization. Never have the touted systems, but accurately evaluate their own players and are willing to develop them. The Whitesox have a long way to go re talent evaluation and development and organization building.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 06:43 AM) I'm also convinced that Saladino is a utility infielder. He's a good one though. May be. But let's find out. He's out hitting the current DH, so what's the harm in giving him at bats? If the Sox trade him, as the Sox likely will if they make a significant trade, they get utility infielder value, which is very little (Hahn/Williams routinely overpay for utility infielders, but he isn't trading with himself). I'd like to find out if that's his real value; and his value won't decline by giving him at bats. And the team won't get worse because the alternative is Avi.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 04:13 PM) The problem with this is that the game simply doesn't work this way anymore. The traditional idea of a "contention window" is obsolete, for two primary reasons: 1. Free agency is no longer a reliable way to build a winner. Players are peaking earlier, declining quicker, and being signed to pre-arbitration extensions that gobble up their prime years. The "all in" strategy doesn't work when you can't buy enough talent with your money. 2. The best team is no more likely to win the playoffs than any other playoff team. The massive cost required to earn the talent required for an extra few wins above the rest of the field is wasted in October. The best way to win a WS is to maximize the number of chances you can take, not to optimize any particular chance. Therefore, the most sensible goal is to be "in the hunt" every single year. A successful plan to this end is one that sees the team in a state of constant but gradual system-wide improvement. And while our ML teams' records have been disappointing the past couple years, it's tough to argue that we haven't seen "gradual system-wide improvement" in each of those years. The answer is not to gut the system, nor is it to tear down and restock. The answer is to stay the course. I don't know how I missed this post. What an eloquent and accurate description of the situation. This post should be framed, with a gold medal attached.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 01:20 PM) That summarizes the Hahn regime quite well.... Anyway jokes aside...the organization has 3 contributors who hit free agency at the end of 2017. At the same time, the price of several other guys is creeping upwards, and then Eaton hits FA at the end of 2018. Like it or not, there is a literal clock on this roster - just to tread water, to stay where they are right now, will cost an extra $20 million+ at the end of 2017 and another $15 million+ at the end of 2018. And that's with players getting older too. At some point before July of 2017, one of four things is going to happen. Either they're going to finally get extremely lucky and have everything work perfectly, they're going to have to majorly sell off a number of players to just get something for them, they're going to have to sell everything in their organization's upper levels even guys they don't want to move to try to put a competitor on the field, or they're going to have to be content with guys walking away for nothing. They're an above .500 team right now but they are 4.5 games out of the wild card, and in the middle of a pack of 5 teams all within 1 loss column game of each other, all of whom are behind 3 other teams for those 2 slots. They could sit back and hope things go well in the 2nd half and maybe they're the team that gets lucky, but with that many opponents in the way the odds are low. They could sit back and hope things go well next year, but that's risky too - one bad luck injury could derail the franchise. You're over .500 right now and you've got tradeable assets in Fulmer, Adams, and Rodon. Standing pat right now and hoping things work watches time tick on the clock you gave. If you're worried about that clock and you look at the other things that will happen to this franchise, and you're unwilling to sell guys, the other option is to make your move right now and try to turn it around, a-la the Blue Jays last year. Doing nothing doesn't cost you anything this year, but it also eats away your time and is a high risk move itself. If you're worried about them "continuing to find lower to go", then sitting there and doing nothing big is a great path to that end result. First, the Sox could have Eaton through 2021. The idea is to build a team that can consistently compete. This theory will help chances in 16 and 17, but turn the Sox into the Reds for 2018 and likely beyond. Yes, the Sox lose players after 2017....of course, that's their own doing as Williams contrived this fictitious "3 year window" and dutiful Hahn executed accordingly. But it is Sox reality - players are done after 17. Big deal, none are difference makers. The better plan would be to accelerate the dispersal, move Frazier, Lawrie and Cabrera on now..include Robertson in the mix. Or don't. Stick with this group and see what they can do. Continue to build the organization. But jamming more resources into this "16/17 or bust" window is not the answer.

I realize that the quality of the minor league teams does not reflect the quality of the prospects (teams at all levels, both Sox and others, are replete with org. guys of various sorts). But man this is one collection of sorry minor league teams. Only Great Falls shows any competence as a team; most are dreadful.