Who stay...who goes???

[Lip Man 1]

In a perfect world, who on the Sox current 40 man roster would you want to go? Who would you maybe want to stick around depending on what else happens to other players / positions / injuries?

 

Just for discussion purposes.

 

Here is mine:

 

Going, going, gone (and I don't even want them in the organization since that way there would be a chance they are called back up):

 

Matt Albers

Chris Beck

Tommy Kahnle

Matt Purke

Anthony Ranaudo

James Shields

Jacob Turner

Leury Garcia

Jason Coats

J.B. Shuck

Avisail Garcia

 

Maybe heading out the door but it all depends on what else happens:

 

Daniel Webb

Michael Ynoa

Alex Avila

Kevan Smith

Carlos Sanchez

Austin Jackson

 

(and yes some of these guys are free agents, I'm simply saying if I'd even want them back or not...)

 

Mark

Edited October 2, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[southsider2k5]

I think some have way too high of an expectation of the talent level of the guys at the end of the 25 and 40 man rosters. If those guys were really good, they wouldn't be the last guys on the roster. Every 40 man is loaded with bad players.

 

[fathom]

I think Sale is long gone to Boston

[Lip Man 1]

I think Sale is long gone to Boston

 

I don't. I'd be really surprised if it happened. All the talk, everything I'm hearing from a number of sources is that JR wants to go for it again in 2017. That means unless someone is willing to meet the Sox price of five big league or big league ready guys, they aren't moving him or Q or anybody else of note.

 

But we'll see...things change.

 

Mark

 

[fathom]

I don't. I'd be really surprised if it happened. All the talk, everything I'm hearing from a number of sources is that JR wants to go for it again in 2017. That means unless someone is willing to meet the Sox price of five big league or big league ready guys, they aren't moving him or Q or anybody else of note.

 

But we'll see...things change.

 

Mark

 

My belief is they trade him for Bradley Jr and Moncada and then try to add starting caliber players to go for it again

[kitekrazy]

I don't. I'd be really surprised if it happened. All the talk, everything I'm hearing from a number of sources is that JR wants to go for it again in 2017. That means unless someone is willing to meet the Sox price of five big league or big league ready guys, they aren't moving him or Q or anybody else of note.

 

But we'll see...things change.

 

Mark

 

Those are two nice contracts that allow for them to spend money on hitting. History suggests they stop trying to fill holes with veteran NL talent.

 

[caulfield12]

I don't. I'd be really surprised if it happened. All the talk, everything I'm hearing from a number of sources is that JR wants to go for it again in 2017. That means unless someone is willing to meet the Sox price of five big league or big league ready guys, they aren't moving him or Q or anybody else of note.

 

But we'll see...things change.

 

Mark

 

But your belief should be stronger that JR would rather deal Sale and at least be able to market Moncada and Bradley (just an example) AND not have to spend an additional $30-40 million on payroll on overvalued free agents in this market.

 

Remember the late 90s and early 00's when the KW philosophy was to at least give the fans an entertaining offense and lots of exploding scoreboards? Now we have bad baseball and pitcher's duels, which isn't nearly as entertaining to casual fans as it is to purists.

[Bob Sacamano]

Those are two nice contracts that allow for them to spend money on hitting. History suggests they stop trying to fill holes with veteran NL talent.

 

With a weak free agent class, who are they going to outbid on?

[SCCWS]

My belief is they trade him for Bradley Jr and Moncada and then try to add starting caliber players to go for it again

 

I doubt Sale is traded. Boston's starting pitching was very good the 2nd half. Their bullpen is a major problem. I doubt they are interested in trading any core pieces ( Bradley) in a trade for any stating pitcher never mind Sale. They will be a favoirite to be in the World Series next year w the team they return. If Dombrowski could get Sale for Moncada and some ML backups like Holt, Shaw etc I could see him doing it. If that happens, Hahn should be a throw-in as part of the trade.

[caulfield12]

You don't trade Chris Sale for the likes of Shaw and Holt as your second piece. That would require Moncada being a superstar and probably the net difference even then is a couple of wins if you're lucky.

 

Even guys like Kimbrel and Giles were getting better packages for the second player in those deals. Granted, Moncada is one of the best prospects in the game but so was Buxton...who's ending this year on a high note but still put up an average in the 220's.

 

Alot depends on how guys like Pomeranz, Buchholz and Rodriguez fare in the playoffs . That offense can cover up a lot of deficiencies, with 3 30-100 guys for the first time in club history, a former MVP in Pedroia, Bradley Jr. & Bogaerts, not to mention Moncada in the pipeline.

Edited October 3, 2016 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

You don't trade Chris Sale for the likes of Shaw and Holt as your second piece. That would require Moncada being a superstar and probably the net difference even then is a couple of wins if you're lucky.

 

Even guys like Kimbrel and Giles were getting better packages for the second player in those deals. Granted, Moncada is one of the best prospects in the game but so was Buxton...who's ending this year on a high note but still put up an average in the 220's.

 

Alot depends on how guys like Pomeranz, Buchholz and Rodriguez fare in the playoffs . That offense can cover up a lot of deficiencies, with 3 30-100 guys for the first time in club history, a former MVP in Pedroia, Bradley Jr. & Bogaerts, not to mention Moncada in the pipeline.

Yeah, let's see how the Red Sox perform in the playoffs before writing off their desire to add an ace.

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah, let's see how the Red Sox perform in the playoffs before writing off their desire to add an ace.

 

Here's to hoping they get shelled and knocked out after 3 games. If they win the whole thing (again), they definitely won't trade any core guys.

[caulfield12]

Dombrowski's the type of GM who will be the first to strike with huge shake-ups in the offseason if they come up short in the ALDS.

[Panerista]

I don't. I'd be really surprised if it happened. All the talk, everything I'm hearing from a number of sources is that JR wants to go for it again in 2017. That means unless someone is willing to meet the Sox price of five big league or big league ready guys, they aren't moving him or Q or anybody else of note.

 

But we'll see...things change.

 

Mark

Hahn admitted this morning going for it every year isn't working and free agent additions haven't lead to winning.

 

Even if they don't completely blow it up, they're going to do closer to that then "go for it"

[dpd9189]

I agree, I think a rebuild is coming.

[hi8is]

I agree, I think a rebuild is coming.

After hoping for it for so long and being let down repeatedly, it's kinda like the new TOOL album: I'll believe it when I see it.

[Panerista]

After hoping for it for so long and being let down repeatedly, it's kinda like the new TOOL album: I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm more expecting a partial dismantling, which is to say at least one of the Aces is gone and probably a bat or two.

 

I don't mind being mad as part of a rebuild. I DO mind being unwatchable in go for it every year mode.

[southsider2k5]

Hahn admitted this morning going for it every year isn't working and free agent additions haven't lead to winning.

 

Even if they don't completely blow it up, they're going to do closer to that then "go for it"

 

The thing is, if you look at it, they didn't really "go for it" last year either, as they kept all of their top prospects, and they didn't go all in for the free agent market.

[caulfield12]

The thing is, if you look at it, they didn't really "go for it" last year either, as they kept all of their top prospects, and they didn't go all in for the free agent market.

 

Who realistically had any legit value other than Fulmer and Adams (at the time)?

 

We knew Anderson wasn't going anywhere.

[Thad Bosley]

The thing is, if you look at it, they didn't really "go for it" last year either, as they kept all of their top prospects, and they didn't go all in for the free agent market.

The results of the 2016 season might make it look like they didn't "go for it", but their stated intent from the middle through the end of last year suggests otherwise:

 

“We’re blessed right now with some special talent that’s entering prime of its career, whether it’s Chris Sale or Jose Abreu, Adam Eaton, Jose Quintana, Carlos Rodon — he’s probably a little before his peak but certainly on the rise,” Hahn said in an interview on the Spiegel and Goff Show. “Our goal and intent all along has been to maximize the window to win a championship while these players are on our roster." - Rick Hahn, December 2015

 

"“It’s important that we not lose sight of what our organization goal was,” Williams said, according to USA Today. “And that was to give us the best three-year window. And we’re not going to abandon that completely with only three months to play. “If we do anything, it will be consistent with trying to maximize this three-year plan or window that we set out originally.” - Kenny Williams, July 2015

Edited October 5, 2016 by Thad Bosley

[Dick Allen]

I'm more expecting a partial dismantling, which is to say at least one of the Aces is gone and probably a bat or two.

 

I don't mind being mad as part of a rebuild. I DO mind being unwatchable in go for it every year mode.

Their going for it mode is going to change. Hahn mentioned "half measures" which we all have termed half assed, as not working out. I agree a partial dismantling is going to happen, but I also think the half assed signings, are a thing of the past. As was pointed out, they are fine to fill a spot, but counting on several of them to work out is insane. It may happen, but you may win the lottery if you buy a ticket.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, you can't say you're going for it and have a three year window and then retroactively say you didn't actually go for it due to half measures instead of full ones...they have to own the fact that the "end" of their legit window is 2017, unless they extend Frazier and pull a rabbit out a hat getting equal offensive numbers to Cabrera's 2016 in 2017 and beyond out of left field.

 

As it stands now, Engel and May are not going to come close to those numbers, so that once again means more spending with uncertain results. I sincerely doubt anyone's going to propose a Cabrera extension to go along with Frazier.

 

Collins might be that bat, but putting him in left field instead of catcher, he's going to be hard-pressed to put up a 2-2.5 WAR unless he undergoes a transformation of Alex Gordon or Ian Desmondesque proportions.

Edited October 5, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

The results of the 2016 season might make it look like they didn't "go for it", but their stated intent from the middle through the end of last year suggests otherwise:

 

“We’re blessed right now with some special talent that’s entering prime of its career, whether it’s Chris Sale or Jose Abreu, Adam Eaton, Jose Quintana, Carlos Rodon — he’s probably a little before his peak but certainly on the rise,” Hahn said in an interview on the Spiegel and Goff Show. “Our goal and intent all along has been to maximize the window to win a championship while these players are on our roster." - Rick Hahn, December 2015

 

"“It’s important that we not lose sight of what our organization goal was,” Williams said, according to USA Today. “And that was to give us the best three-year window. And we’re not going to abandon that completely with only three months to play. “If we do anything, it will be consistent with trying to maximize this three-year plan or window that we set out originally.” - Kenny Williams, July 2015

 

Rick and Kenny are also both on record saying that they won't always tell the truth to the media when it doesn't benefit the franchise. Plus you can just look at last off season's transactions and it is 100% obvious they didn't fully go for it. They didn't sign a top free agent, and they move top prospects to get a true front line player to fill a hole. The front office can say what they want, but the actions don't agree.

[Thad Bosley]

Rick and Kenny are also both on record saying that they won't always tell the truth to the media when it doesn't benefit the franchise. Plus you can just look at last off season's transactions and it is 100% obvious they didn't fully go for it. They didn't sign a top free agent, and they move top prospects to get a true front line player to fill a hole. The front office can say what they want, but the actions don't agree.

Interesting. So you expect unconditional "loyalty" from a fan base for a team that is "on record saying that they won't always tell the truth" to the fans (via the media), and in any given season, won't "fully go for it", whatever that means. That sounds like they didn't make a requisite effort to win this season which any fan would expect each season from their team, unless the team declares up front that it is a rebuilding season. The Sox did not say any such thing at the beginning of this past season, but instead led us all to believe with the previously highlighted quotes that they were going to do everything they could to "maximize" the opportunity to win this season with the current core. But now you suggest they cannot be believed or taken at their word. Again, I say, interesting.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Thad Bosley

[southsider2k5]

Interesting. So you expect unconditional "loyalty" from a fan base for a team that is "on record saying that they won't always tell the truth" to the fans (via the media), and in any given season, won't "fully go for it", whatever that means. That sounds like they didn't make a requisite effort to win which any fan would expect each season from their team, unless the team declares up front that it is a rebuilding season. The Sox did not say any such thing at the beginning of this past season, but instead led us all to believe with the previously highlighted quotes that they were going to do everything they could to "maximize" the opportunity to win this season with the current core. But now you suggest they cannot be believed or taken at their word. Again, I say, interesting.

 

Ugh. One of these days you will learn what an observation is, but let me explain this. Again.

 

I EXPECT nothing. Fans can do what they want to do.

 

Now stay with me here, because this is where you seem to get lost, but, what fans do DOES have an effect on the bottom line of the franchise. IF they stay, or IF hey go is a big determination of the options that a franchise has.

 

Those two ideas are NOT mutually exclusive. You can believe in loyalty, or you can believe in sending a message to the franchise, but it does NOT change the fact that those actions impact the myriad of options that a franchise has. If you want to continue to be offended by your misconception, there isn't much I can do about that.