GreenSox

Sounds like a lot of posturing and BS, too. These "unknown sources" have an interest in getting the price for MB and Jose as low as possible. "Vasquez isn't the same pitcher" - what a crock...he's EXACTLY the same pitcher...great stuff, but doesn't put it together and makes a few mistakes each game. His ERA was terrible his last year in ARizona. These guys aren't objective and have agendas. They're playing the media, just like KW. (one disadvantage of dealing with Boston is that the red sox have their own full-time media department - ESPN).

As others have suggested, it would really be nice to trade Contreras for the prospects and extend MB with a market contract. However, I think we'll get a good offer for MB; I don't think we will sign him; but I also agree that if all we get are B prospect offers, keep the picks.

No reason to believe that the report that the Sox planted this info is any more valid than the other reports. ESPN is about as objective when it comes to the Red Sox as the Tribune is when it comes to the Cubs.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:21 PM) The addressed them. They just didn't get the results they were hoping for. CF Erstad replaced Brian Anderson. LF - Pods was supposed to be healthy and be a quality leadoff man. ERstad was hardly a serious effort to replace Anderson (and it wasn't anderson anyway - an anderson/mack platoon)....he's a declining player that struggles getting on base and has no power and no arm. Williams should have brought in a legitimate CF. I know Erstad hits ozzie-style: he goes up there hacking at any pitch his bat can reach and can make an out to whatever side of the infield Ozzie instructs him. Williams doesn't need to cater to Ozzie's weak-points. And Williams added no one solid in the bullpen either - and unfortunately they have pitched about as bad as they possibly could. Williams had some rough luck in the offseason. The real concern is Ozzie's unwillingness to develop young talent. Hopefully he's capable of doing it (not sure he is) and hopefully Williams will force him to do it, because Ozzie has little patience with young hitters. But pretty soon, developing young hitters will be the prime goal of the season.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 05:28 PM) It looks like the Cubs will be paying most of the contract. So essentially the Sox could have dealt Robert Valido for Jones and cash (cause Valido is no different than Abecrombie as far as I'm concerned). Personally I'd have loved to have been the club that made this deal. The price is low and it should be low because Jones blows. WE have no use for him. Robert Valido is 22 years old, and although he's struggled lately, is worth keeping around. Giving up on young players with talent at 22 is dubious. I'm glad we didn't make this deal if for no other reason that ozzie would have played this .230 hack at everything hitter every day as he does with most veterans. Ozzie-ball continues to have Mack and Cintron crowd out the young players.

Joq Jones? We need bullpen help, too. Have we inquired about Bob Howry? For only $10 Mill per, we could have both Joq and Howry on the team. Well, a fan can dream, can't he?

QUOTE(heirdog @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 11:17 AM) Is it fair to say that Chris Young is better that BA, Sweeney and Owens at this point? Also, if it took Chris Young to get the trade done, then the comparison should be Vasquez + one of the 3 guys above vs. El Duque and Chris Young in the rotation and line-up respectively and I think I would take the Vasquez and one of the guys above. The unfortunate part is that we don't get one of the 3 above consistently, we get Terrero, Gonzalez, Erstad and Mackowiak. I agree. The players with real talent sit in AAA, while the hackers get the PT. It's ridiculous. Anderson and Sweeney should be playing every day on the ml team. My only reservation is whether Guillen develop them or ruin them. Ozzie jerked Anderson around last year and didn't give him a chance this year. Chris Young, the recipient of immense hype particularly after he left the Sox, hasn't set the world on fire in Arizona. He's been injured. I think Rogers has slightly changed his tact on the Garcia and McCarthy trades...he first criticized them saying the Sox got ripped and certainly they wouldn't help a ready-to-win team; then he said he was wrong; now he's saying well, they didn't address real needs...so we used Mccarthy and Gacia to bring in pitchers instead of CF, SS etc. It's BS.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 12:34 PM) I'd do Contreras straight up for B level prospect and to be honest, I think that's what we should expect in return. It's amazing how Sox players aren't worth anything - certainly worth nothing close to what we give up for players of similar value.. He's signed for a couple of more years, he's a solid AL starter and he's worth a pile more than a B prospect.

At best Crisp is about like Rowand. That's what we're back to? Getting a slightly above average ballplayers to fill holes can be done in FA and in the offseason. That's not what this is about. And it's not a surprise that Gammons and ESPN are saying we won't get a top prospect - remember, they are Red Sox fans. They are not objective and have never been.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 08:39 PM) but he would not agree to sign an extension with us, so the deal was squashed. Thank you, AJ, for saving us from ourselves. QUOTE(Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 08:30 PM) 2006- Bobby Abreu to the Yankees for 4 nobodys. Wasn't a rental player IIRC, which actually hurt what the Yanks got in return. That was a salary dump - the Phillies had been looking to dump him for a long time. The other thing is that there have been plenty of 1 year rentals - and these are at full market price - if you are willing to take a player with 1 year left on the contract, then 1/2 a season should be worth a decent haul (because by that point you know you are in the race). You don't go from market price to B prospect in the first 2 months of the year.

QUOTE(southsida86 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 08:10 PM) I agree, but the problem is that you probably aren't going to get anything more than B prospects for a rental player these days, and even that is generous. We rented Freddie Garcia for far more than 2 B prospects (sure we extended him - after we rented him). People were going ga-ga over the opportunity to rent AJ Burnett 2 years ago ( 2 of MCCarthy, Crede, Conteras and Sweeney etc.). It's funny how when we are looking to rent, the price isn't so cheap.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 07:01 PM) I think Pena's best comp is Sammy Sosa. A sammy Sosa off the roids, but sammy sosa, nonetheless. Which means 20-25 homers, high Ks, low average, and bad defense. Just what we need.

QUOTE(bigred3535 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 05:47 PM) Better arm than anyone except Jenks and Thornton that we have in our bullpen. I may be in the minority but I don't think we're far away from contending if we can get major league players back in trades for Buehrle, Dye and Iguchi and sign one or two of the right free agents. Obviously this is idealistic but I think this team could contend for a playoff berth: I think we could fix this thing quickly too, if we get over our love-affair with grinders and make wise deals this . I am not that schooled on Brewers, but it's hard to believe that we could get 3 excess players from the Brewers with whom we could win as starters.

QUOTE(spiderman @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 06:24 PM) I think CoCo Crisp would be involved a deal because Kenny doesn't consider this rebuilding...more or less reshuffling. Declining obp and power numbers for each of the last 3 years (and they were not that great- Iguchi-ish - to begin with). He'll fit right in.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 05:55 PM) Please no, not as a centerpiece, only as a throw-in with something good coming along. Not even as a throw in. That would be no pena and no crisp. We have a team full of hack hitters right now.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 05:25 PM) But you know it will be Lowrie and some A ball reliever who throws hard. Ah man. I couldn't take it.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 06:33 AM) I can't see Boston giving up either Ellsbury or Bucholz, their top 2 prospects. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...T-sox24.article Why not? We gave up one of our top 2 prospects and more for an inferior Garcia. Hell yes they should give up their top 2 prospects.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 11:36 AM) Again, no he wasn't. He was signed to compete for the starting job, otherwise he wouldn't have signed here. It wasn't like he was in high demand; he didn't really outplay Anderson in the spring, has signficantly less power, and doesn't get on base well, but Ozzie absolutely loves him. What objective evidence do you guys see that Ozzie cares about getting on base and plate disclinpline? To me, the evidence is overwheliming that speed and hacking ability are more important. Let's take the 2 hole. Iguchi hit .340OBP and double digit homers in 2005. Ozzie immediately starts talking about moving uribe there. He wasn't satisfied with Iguchi. Then this year, he demotes Iguchi for Erstad. Look at today (and yesterday's lineup)....Gonzales hits in the 2 hole. To Ozzie, bunting is key in the 2 hole...with Thome, Konerko and Dye coming up, the 2 holse hitter needs to bunt. Look at the coaches - Joey Cora, Razor Shines...come on. Pitching - Can't let Garland face that reknown hitter Joe Borachard; gotta turn him around....ooops, you mean they can pinch hit for the woeful borchard? Oh well, another L. Baseball, Ozzie-style. Sure I'm second guessing, but doesn't any responsibilty fall on this coaching staff?

Erstad was signed to be the fourth outfielder. It's OZZIE who decided that this low power and low obp ballplayer was the quintessential center fielder that he had been looking for. Cintron is and was a untility infielder. It was Ozzie who decided this hacking punch hitter who can barely break .200 was his #1 pinch hitter. (How can the worst hitter on the team pinch hit for anyone? Ask Oz). And last year it was Ozzie who benched an offensively-improving and defensively stellar Anderson for Mack who was a butcher in the field. None of these decisions had anything to do with injuries. As for Konerko and the other slumpers, no it's not the coaches fault; but what have the done to get them out of the slump? It's just like the plate patience thing. You'd think ONE of these hitters would emerge just like you'd think ONE of the many slap hitters coached by Guillen and Walker would show some plate discipline....that is if they coach plate discipline.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 04:03 PM) What Ozzie wanted was 2005. Podsednik at his peak, situational hitting, homers. Sorry, but you're way off. I'm sure Ozzie's mandate to KW was, "Give me slow guys. AA relievers. No offense." But other than that, very well done. Fathom, don't praise green. His post is misleading in almost every sense. On edit, I agree with the person above who pointed out that if Williams is doing Ozzie's bidding, then that's Williams' stupidity. That's a good point. Guillen was constantly fighting with Thomas; and Lee. Maggs I don't know about. Guillen is the one who wanted Rowand off (he can't bunt) - fine - but then wouldn't deal with the young hitter replacement. Guillen is the one who played Mack. Williams signed Erstad as a backup. It was Guillen who was so turned on by his hacking at everything and not wasting at bats with walks, that he marginalized Anderson, and called ERstad is a .400 hitter when he hits .200 (that's exactly what Guillen said). Guillen is the one who said that Erstad bats leadoff when both ERstad and Pods return. You ask who else to pinch hit? How about no pinch hitter, since Cintron is a much worse hitter than anyone he could pinch hit for. Yet, who is Ozzie's most frequently used PH? Cintron. What young hitter has Ozzie Guillen successfully developed?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 03:45 PM) All 3. No manager could win with the AA team we're fielding right now. Andy Gonzalez? Ryan Bukvich? Come on. This is on KW, and solely on KW. How many games have we lost due to Ozzie compared to how many we have lost due to the s*** 25 man roster.I agree that no one could win with this roster (although Ozzie is doing about as bad a job with it as is possible). I think you significantly underestimate the influence that Ozzie has on personnel. Who wanted Lee, Ordonez and Frank off this team? That would be Ozzie and his ego. Who wants the free swingers and hackers on the team? Ozzie Who wanted Erstad ahead of the far superior Podsednik? Ozzie because Ozzie loves guys who can hit grounders to either side of the infield, and then run out their copius outs hard. Who wanted Anderson and Sweeney off this team quickly, but had no problem with Owens and his zero walks (until his last game) and zero RBIs for a month? Ozzie. Who actually uses .200 hitters with no power as pinch hitters and, incredibly, as DH? Ozzie. Now this team needed retooling after 03. Thank GOODNESS we won before Guillen got Kenny to completely change this team to, well, what we have this year.

After another brilliant day of managing from Ozzie Guillen, I hope any discussion of extending that clown manager, whose ego and incompetence is taking the Sox down the toilet, ceases.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 09:18 AM) At this point, I'd rather just keep using MacDougal for the rest of the year to see if he shows some improvement. Absolutely - he's got the "stuff" he's just wild. Jones is a declining free swinger who plays poor D. Even for the Cubs, he was just a filler-player. Mac was supposed to be our set-up man. Both are disappointments but Mac has more value. And to throw in a serious arm in addition? noooooo. Hell, I'd prefer Murton.

At least Podsednik has produced for the Sox and was producing this year prior to injury I'd rather producers who jog on outs, that hackers who run as hard as they can on outs and make a lot of them, but who don't produce squat.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 09:06 AM) The Sox don't need a CF -- Erstad is penciled in for the next 3 years on KW's big board. It would be nice of Williams would pencil in a center fielder who could hit worth a damn. OH well, Erstad is a grade A hacker (check) - doesn't waste at bats by walking (check) and he doesn't disrespect Ozzie or Ozzie Jr (check); He's a true Sox, Ozzie-style. Mac Dougal is not worse than Jones, is younger and no way would we have given up 2 live arms for Jones last year. Mac Dougal for Jones this year would be a bad, bad trade for the Sox.