striker

The only difference between you and me is I am disappointed in June, July, maybe even May when we are out of it. You are disappointed year round. I wouldnt' be against dumping anyone. I've actually posted several times to trade Paulie to LAA for youth. But who knows if anyone actually wants him. If you don't like the players we have then you will kill yourself speculating all the moves we should make. When in actuality there may nt be moves out there. Thats the reality.

QUOTE(Chombi @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 11:59 PM) That whole thing is silly. Be optimistic all you want. If you have a problem with people who live in reality, change the channel. True you can't win a WS now, but you sure a f*** can lose them. That stupid half-glass empty or full mentality is fine. Your qoute applies to the first months of the season too, but lots of teams lose their chance early. Not win, but certainly lose a division in April/May/December...etc. It's just a dumb thing. 05' I am so sick of hearing about. It's amazing people like you claim to be so optimistic about how this team can be good, but then you contradict your own theory and claim that the 05' team looked awful. It's total manipulation on your part to try and act as though we aren't in a world of trouble. I've already dabbled in other sections about the 05' team and quite frankly, I am sick of it. But for you, I'll gladly give you an overview. 2004. Maggs played 50 games. Frank was hurt. We had Jason Grilli, Felix Diaz, Scott Schoenweis in our rotation....It was upgraded with Freddy. Contreras was an upgrade over our 5th starter that we didnt have if you remember correctly. We signed El Duque who everyone knew would have healthy issues but if he could hold over, it would've been huge. A healthy Dye was better then the injured Maggs and yea we lost Carlos Lee and his big bat but we replaced it with speed and somewhat better defender and BULLPEN ARM THAT HELPED US ALL SEASON. And save the Hermanson comment. Did you become a Sox fan in 06? Do you not recall that Billy Koch was our closer the previous year? Do you remember how bad he was for us? Hermanson sorry to say it was an upgrade. I can't say I thought this team was a lock to win it. I'd be lying, I hoped theyd win but didnt expect it. I did expect them to be much closer in a division that they FINISHED IN SECOND PLACE IN THE YEAR PRIOR. wITH ALL THOSE PROBLEMS, THEY STILL FINISHED 2ND. HOW WERE THOSE DEALS NOT UPGRADES????!?!?! So I state the question again and ask you whether you were even a Sox fan before 05 because clearly you have no clue what you're talking about. Yes I am sure someone will point out experts picked us to come in 4th. Some, like Rob Neyer picked us to win. Most of the others had no idea what to expect of us because of all the moves we made. They aren't fans. Most fans see moves as positive or negative. Yea the Lee thing scared me a little but I was excited to have a guy who would steal us 70+ bases. I remember hearing his avg was low in Milwaukee the previous year because they wanted him to be more of a deep threat, so I attributed that to his low avg and OBP. We didn't need Pods to do that and I expected the steals to be crossed with his 04' OBP/Avg. And 06' we hardly looked better on paper. We had to worry about Thome's health. We lost Rowand and we had the concern as to if everyone could repeat the same crazy seasons they had in 05'. All that and again we weren't picked by everyone to win it. And yea we finished 3rd. With 90 wins and several components missing from our offense...like Scott Podsednik, who was our catalyst. Next KW deserves slack. Our farm is not on the level it should be. His fault. We have made some stupid moves. His fault. His ego is not allowing him to break this up. He thinks it was so good that it can be good again. It can, but not on the same level as it was. We had fluke years out of guys. Minimal injuries. Things go our way. The division is much harder too incase you havent noticed. That may be my favorite part. People will admit this team is worse then 05 or 06'. And they'll acknowledge that the division is much better. But when they are asked to add those two things together, it's like you gave them math they've never heard of. They have trouble that both of those together doesn't make you a good team. I don't get it. So yea...I am going to keep "whining" as you put it. I will sure to hound you every day next season too. Several messages a day saying "I told you so". Thats assuming you aren't back in Wrigley by then. And why wait til after the season? So there is more negatives showing on those guys? So they're a year older? Another year closer to FA? Which of those negative lights team shine on making deals are you pushing for? maybe you'd prefer it takes an extra year to get back into contension? Instead of starting now, let's wait till we are definately out of it. Not cut out losses b4 they get worse? The Sox are Microsoft stock. It hit highs in 05 and 06. 07 it took a huge hit. Instead of selling because there are more signs of worse to come then there are positive signs...You hang on. Hits rock bottom next year and you come away with nothing. I should hire you to manage my portfolio. You're brilliant. You can tell me about how I whine since I am concerned about something that I have cared for and followed for years, while you have only been caring for them and following for 2 years. Chombi, Are you still alive? After that note I assumed you jumped out a window. I've been a Whitesox fan since 1990. My favorite all time players are Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Jason Bere. Yes, Jason Bere. In fact I still have like 50 of his rookie cards. Every year, no matter what happens in the offseason, I get pumped about the Whitesox. PUMPED. I go nuts in March waiting for the season to start. And every year in the past 17, except for one, the season ends up a disappointment because we didn't win it all. We had the best team in baseball in 1993 before the strike. I remember seeing all four games in Seattle and we swept them all. Ron Karkovice won one game with a homer off Randy Johnson. The fourth game of the series I had tickets behind the Mariners dugout. Between innings that Mariner Moose got on top of the Mariners dugout and pointed at my Whitesox hat and everyone started booing. Then he took it off my head and turned it inside out to the crowd cheering. I've been through the 16 disappointing season in the past 17 years. But so have fans of 28 other teams. Every year anything can happen. The Tigers made it to World Series in 2006 after like 20 years of sub .500 ball. The Cardinals won it all that year with like 84 regular season wins. You can complain and rant all you want, and there is probably a 99% chance you are right. But I'll take my 1% chance over your 99% any day of the week.

Andruw Jones represents everything we don't want: - Fat - Low Batting Average - Low OBP - High Strikeouts - Expensive I'm prepared to see Owens in CF and leading off, at least through Spring Training.

As much as we sucked last year we still had a winning record against Detroit. The talent was there for us but the attitudes just stank. Hopefully we get off to a good start and the players don't fall apart. Our minor league system is bare but even if we had a hot prospect, the only position we have to fill is CF. If we sucked again this year we could easily replenish our minor league system with a firesale. Dye, Kornerko, Crede, Vazquez would all bring at least one A prospect in return. I'm confident one of Danks, Gio, Gavin or Eggy will pan out. The Whitesox of 2008 have alot to prove and have the capability to win. I'm sure they'll be alot better than last year.

I don't know why everyone is freaking out so much. The only thing you can win in the offseason is the "on-paper world series". On-paper right now the Sox don't look so great because everyone had a bad season last year. On-paper right now the Tigers look completely awesome. On-paper in 2005 the Whitesox looked like crap. Hermanson was our closer! Dustin Fing Hermanson! Dye was coming off a decent season. Garland was coming off a 12 win season with a 4.89 era. We said goodbye to Lee and Ordonez, two of baseballs best. But we won it all. And we beat Boston and LAA to get there. On-paper in 2006 we looked even better. We added Jim Thome who tore it up. But we finished third. So everyone just stop whining so much. All Kenny Williams can do is field a good team. The players have to win. There is no need to rebuild now. We can wait til after this season and try and dump Kornerko, Thome, Dye, etc. to rebuild.

Another + for the Quentin/Carter deal. A good OF is harder to find then a 1B. And from what I hear Carter isn't much of a 1B.

I love this deal. We actually have a good mix of youth and veterans now. I'm fine with Owens proving himself in Spring Training and if he falters then make a move then. No use in rushing into a move now. I'm curious to see what we could get for Crede or if KW suprises everyone by getting rid of Fields and Crede and getting Cabrera. CF Owens SS O. Cabrera 3B M. Cabrera * DH Thome 1B Kornerko RF Dye CA Pierzynski LF Quentin 2B Richar *Fields, Sweeney and Egbert to Florida That is a pretty sweet lineup.

CF Willits* LF Fukudome (FA Signing) DH Thome 1B Kornerko RF Dye CA Pierzynski SS Cabrera 3B Fields 2B Richar Buehrle Vazquez Contreras Danks/Floyd/Gio/Edbert Danks/Floyd/Gio/Edbert Jenks Linebrink MacDougal Thornton Wasserman Logan *Anderson & Crede to LAA for Willits (if they don't get Cabrera)

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Nov 30, 2007 -> 01:42 AM) He's asking for too much. Didn't we spend enough on Linebrink? But most everyone else in the bullpen is cheap. Jenks makes under 1mil. Thornton around 2mil. MacDougal around 3. Teams now spend $10-$15mil/year on one reliever. We would still only be around $15mil for our entire bullpen. After last year, you can say its worth the money.

I haven't really seen his name thrown around at all. He has been pretty solid in his career and I'm wondering if he would take $4mil/year. That would give us a bullpen of: Jenks Linebrink MacDougal Thornton Logan Wasserman That could make MacDougal expendible or decrease the risk if anyone sucks like they did last year. Thoughts? Stats: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/V/luis-vizcaino.shtml

They might not contend next year but when they open their new stadium they'll be competitive. They might be saving up their money to add a couple big names to the roster when that stadium opens. Build up the hype. Getting rid of 1 good player for 2 or 3 good players to me is a good move. Your team gets younger and cheaper, you have more talent and more money, which leads to more flexibility to make the right move when you need to.

I wonder if we don't get Cabrera, if we would offer the same package to get Crawford. I'm scared of either move because our minor league system is already bad. Trading away any prospects would just make it worse. Of course if the team doesn't win in 2008 then you could just have a fire sale to strengthen the minor league system.

Agreed. In 2007, anything that could have gone wrong did go wrong. Horrible Offense Inconsistent starting pitching terrible relief pitching injuries You name it.

I'm not thrilled with this signing but the bullpen is a coin toss anyways. The year we won it all everyone in our bullpen had career years. Politte, Cotts, Hermanson. So all we can do is hope for the best.

Just curious as to what the general concensus is.

Next Up: Sign Andruw Jones Trade for Crisp Trade Crede Sign/Trade for Reliever LF Crisp SS Cabrera DH Thome 1B Kornerko CF Jones RF Dye CA Pierzynski 3B Fields 2B Richar That could be a 250hr team.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 4, 2007 -> 08:06 PM) Granted, a lot of moves are surprising, but some are also known. The Thome stuff was talked about a few days before, and his name was an obvious one during the off-season. Everyone knew Williams had a hard on for Javy. The timing was odd, but the acquistion of Vazquez was hardly a surprise. Deals like Thornton and Cotts aren't talked about because they aren't major. Crede to NY for an OF makes too much sense for something not to get done. There are other teams in need of a 3B. Angels have Figgins but could replace his speed with Willits in the lineup and they could use Crede's bat. Phillies need a 3B. They might have a ss prospect they could surrender and possibly a reliever. Seems like Gillick and KW make a move each year now. Toronto could dump Glaus and turn around and pickup Crede. Boston doesn't have a 3B under contract. Oakland has been rumored to be shopping Chavez. Texas has been rumored to be unhappy with Blalock. Dodgers might not be ready for LaRoche. The posibilities are endless. You gotta love Hot Stove.

I don't see the Crede for Damon deal going down. How often do the rumored deals actually go down? I don't think I've ever heard a rumored deal go down. If you look at most of the past moves the Whitesox made we didn't see any of them coming: Buehrle Extended Dye Extended Pierzynski Extended McCarthy to the Rangers Freddy to the Phillies Cotts to the Cubs for Aardsma Vazquez from the Diamondbacks Thornton from the Mariners Thome from the Phillies for Rowand Were there any threads about any of these? We all had our thoughts on the extensions but everyone of us probably thought a trade was more likely than an extension. KW is full of suprises. Crede for Damon is not a suprise so it won't happen.

QUOTE(fathom @ Nov 4, 2007 -> 05:08 PM) A lot worse. That would be the worst team in the majors. How do you figure? It's not much difference than the '05 champs.

Kornerko to LAA for Aybar, Willits, Santana. Crede to Boston for Crisp. Garland to Colorado for Fuentes and Stewart. LF Willits ($.5) CF Crisp ($4) DH Thome ($15) RF Dye ($11) CA Pierzynski ($6) 1B Fields ($.5) 3B Ian Stewart ($.5) SS Aybar ($.5) 2B Richar ($.5) SP Buehrle ($14) SP Vazquez ($11.5) SP Contreras ($10) SP Danks/Floyd/Gio/Egbert/Santana ($.5) SP Danks/Floyd/Gio/Egbert/Santana ($.5) CL Jenks ($.5) RP Thornton ($1) RP Fuentes($3.5) RP MacDougal ($2) RP Russell/Day ($.5) RP Wasserman ($.5) Payroll ~ $55million Alot younger. Alot faster. Alot cheaper.

b & C LF Figgins ($4) CF Willits ($.5) DH Thome ($15) RF Dye ($11) CA Pierzynski ($6) 1B Jackson ($.5) 3B Fields ($.5) SS Aybar ($.5) 2B Richar ($.5) SP Buehrle ($14) SP Vazquez ($11.5) SP Contreras ($10) SP Danks/Floyd/Gio/Egbert ($.5) SP Danks/Floyd/Gio/Egbert ($.5) CL Jenks ($.5) RP Thornton ($1) RP AZ Reliever($.5) RP MacDougal ($2) RP Russell/Day ($.5) RP Wasserman ($.5) Payroll ~ $87million Alot younger. Alot faster. Alot cheaper.

Alright, time for hypothetical situations. Let's say F&G went down and we signed Andruw Jones for $16mil/year. f)Crede to Boston for Crisp. (We get leadoff/cf. They get 3B.) g)Kornerko and Garland to LAD for Frucal/Hu, Kemp, Broxton. (We get SS, OF, reliever. They get power hitter and starter. We shed $12-25mil.) Sign Andruw Jones for $16mil/year. SS Frucal ($14) LF Crisp ($4) DH Thome ($15) 1B Dye ($11) CF A. Jones ($16) CA Pierzynski ($6) RF Kemp ($.5) 3B Fields ($.5) 2B Richar ($.5) SP Buehrle ($14) SP Vazquez ($11.5) SP Contreras ($10) SP Danks/Floyd/Gio/Egbert ($.5) SP Danks/Floyd/Gio/Egbert ($.5) CL Jenks ($.5) RP Thornton ($1) RP Broxton ($.5) RP MacDougal ($2) RP Russell/Day ($.5) RP Wasserman ($.5) Payroll ~ $113million Great defense. Better bullpen with Broxton. More speed. More youth. Alot of power. Starting rotation could be shakey.

Obviously there are alot of rumors floating around out there so I wanted to see what everyone else's thoughts were. You can select more than one player. Some of my biggest concerns are the Sox are getting older, slower, more injury prone and more expensive, so I feel we need to get younger but still stay competitive. Four teams that are full of major league ready talented but could use the veterans we have are Arizona, LA Dodgers, LA Angels and Colorado. If we could get speed and youth in return for any trade then I'd be all for it. Here are some trades I would hope to see go down. The may look like dreams but could happen in some form or another. a)Kornerko to LAA for Wood/Aybar and Figgins/Willits. (We get SS, leadoff hitter, shed $10mil. They get power hitter) b)Kornerko & Crede to LAA for Wood/Aybar, Figgins and Willits/Santana. (We get leadoff, SS and shed $15mil. They get two power hitters) c)Garland to Arizona for Connor Jackson and a reliever (We get a reliever and a of/1b, possible Kornerko replacement. They get starter.) d)Garland to Colorado for Fuentes and Ian Stewart (We get a reliever, 3b/1b/ofer and dump $6mil. They get another starter.) e)Garland to LAD for Frucal. (We get leadoff/ss. They get starter.) f)Crede to Boston for Crisp. (We get leadoff/cf. They get 3B.) g)Kornerko and Garland to LAD for Frucal/Hu, Kemp, Broxton. (We get SS, OF, reliever. They get power hitter and starter. We shed $12-25mil.) Thoughts?

This is just my 2 cents. We have a need for a CF who can hit and Boston needs a 3B assuming they don't resign Lowell. If this trade went down would you think it was lopsided?

I'd feel sorry for the guy if it wasn't for the fact that he whines all the time and acts like he's Bonds. He batted .225 as an everyday player, was eventually sent down in 2007 where he batted .255 at AAA. Shut up and play. He wants to know what the Whitesox "plans" are with him. There are no plans if you can't play.