joeynach

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 08:21 AM) After seeing what Jones signed for today with the Dodgers I think all doubt about whether Kenny would deal with Boras should be erased. If he wasn't willing to top 2 /$36 then we know he wasn't interested in the best CFer on the market because of his agent. Jones wont hit 30 HR next year playing in LA, SD, and SF half the time. Fields is more of a HR threat than Jones.

I really think its as simple as budget, KW has one. And adding $18 Mil to the next 2 years just doens't seem like its in KW's budget or im sure he would do it.

QUOTE(Chombi @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 12:10 AM) I can't wait for Soxfest. I am wondering if ticket sales have gone up since all this has occured. I wouldnt be surprised to see an 05-06 like Soxfest and watch people try to tear KW limb from limb. They havent one my friends is a sox ticket rep. He said sales are slow and now after the losing out on Cabrera, Hunter, and the pissed of Dye thing all of the sox employees and ticket reps are pissed too. After all they are trying to sell tickets to a show that right now looks like its going to be terrible. KW is making a lot of peoples lives a little miserable.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 12:09 PM) Lol at kw telling dye and buehrle exact names about who he was going after this offseason and already knowing contract amounts. Does anyone actually read your posts after you make them? I meant that KW was probably the only one believing in his certainty in such an uncertain world. He somehow got MB, JD, and AJ to buy into the fact the sox are serious contenders for Miggy and Hunter. Probably becuase he told himself and the other guys he would go for it all in terms of payroll for Hunter as well as trading prospects for Miggy. KW im sure actually believed he could get both in the same fashion of his "going for it all" plan, but like I said the only thing certain in the FA and trade markets is absolute uncertainty and that is the point im trying to make.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 09:52 AM) Another type A free agent. So we get a first round draft pick, then we start off at the 4th round. Thats what smart teams do, they limit their draft picks to restock the talent pool in their minor leagues. The same type of talent, that teams have been using to acquire talent. Rowand on this team is nice, and by himself sure. We just signed a type A free agent setup guy. So once again, we wont be replenishing the worst minor league system in baseball this up coming year. We wont pay overslot. So we will get Jordan Danks the grindermaster in the overdraft because he is cheap. 55 million dollars for Rowand. Wait till he hits .270 and cant hit the slider again. I am glad we are just blowing our load because of perception. Just blow this thing up and start over. Rowand isnt a difference maker and we are not competing against the Tigers and Indians this year. Unf***ingbelievable. 100% Agree with everything....love the blowing our load analagy thats exactly what this is. Just the outcome from KW decree that 2007 "didn't sit well with us". Well yea thats true but there is a different losing 90 games with a 100 Mil payroll and lots of solid proven vets and losing 90 games in florida marlins mode with all rookies and young players. I wouldn 't mind losing 90 games a year as much if I saw the future developing before my eyes. But I can do without a team of 82 wins because we spent $14 Mil on Rowand.

QUOTE(Chombi @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 12:51 AM) Rowand is overrated. Especially in this city because we love him. Last year was his career year. It was better then I believe 03 or 04'. One of those he hit like 24 homers and I thought he was breaking out but then he came down to earth the next year. It's no mystery that plenty guys have career years in contract years. It's a bad theory but it does have some substance to it. HeIt'll be tough and I doubt he'll come close to it again. He should settle in around a statline of .270 .340 obp clip 18 hrs 75 knocked in...Is that what you want to pay for? Is that going to save this team and make them challenge the Tigers offensively? Basically we are going backwards. He was here before and it was great. Bringing him in as our marquee move hardly makes us contenders. Actually, without other moves...It doesn't. Potent lineup on paper? I can't see why his bat would make this team that much better? He doesn't do enough. I'd much rather play a cheaper Owens in cf and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, there'll be new guys next year available who will prolly be just as overrated we can sign. Rowand will cost us 4-5 years and 50-75 mil lets say which is about 11-14.5 more then Owens or Sweeney. In four years, when this team has finished last 2 times and 3rd or fourth another, how do we deal him? He has had minimal value before. Remember we got an injured Thome who was blocking Ryan Howard. They were very happy to pull the trigger. Now he is 34-35 and beaten up, his bat has most likely declined from its usual mediocre level and his defense is now average. Yet we are still paying him 12-15 mil a year. In the meantime, over those seasons he is here, we still haven't won or really competed...because we wont. We are no where near the level of the Tigers or Indians. Behind the Twins. We are a few levels down with the Royals. Nothing on this team say we can compete anymore. I have been saying it all year. I wanted a firesale before the season started in fear of something like this. Did I expect it to be this bad? No. But I have that personality where if I am not playing to win, I don't play. We aren't playing to win. We are playing to field a decent team who has star power and can attract fans. Rowand is a PR move and a bad one. His contract will kill this team and force other players to be dealt instead if a firesale isnt the path we choose. We are so desperate for hope right now that Aaron Rowand sounds like our savior. Name any other team who would think that about him? There is none. If he was that special, Philly would've kept him. That OF isn't that good. I hope I covered everything. It's lengthy but I think I got most of my opinions out that you asked for. I agree with most of what you say. We all know what Rowand is, he might be a solid OF, but hes no savior. In reality you should expect .270/20/75. Thats it, average to above average. The problem is anyone the sox bring in to fill holes is going to be the same result, short of getting the bigtime guys like a Cabrera, Arod, Santana, etc. The tigers and indians are stacked and posted for 95+ wins, the sox are tying to get more competitive from their 72 win showing last year. It doesn't matter what we do short of acquring 3 future HOF'ers. Nothing is going to change in 2008, in terms of winning a championship. Sure the team might win 80-85 games now against some of the best teams in AL, but it wont translate into real winning. What it will do is allow the team to create the necessary revenue streams. In this market and in this city, this firesale we all talk about probably just wont happen. The marlins/KC model just wont fly in a city and market like this...period, so get used to. This is a business too and revenue streams are important to everything about this team from payroll to media exposure. That being said if we did sign Rowand or anyone else it is a PR stunt its meant to implent a feeling of solidity on this team which had anything but from last year. We do need a competitive team to just survive in this city and take advantage of everything it has to offer. Just by landscape of trades and FA we just aren't going to find anything now or in the near future, barring a miracle, that is going to make this team compete with the likes of CLE, DET, NYY, and BOS.

QUOTE(joesaiditstrue @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 04:49 AM) do you honestly think the sox will pay cabrera what he'll be worth in 2 years? he could get a 20+ for 7-8 years from the right team, look what soriano got and he's older and a lesser player offensively and defensively. i don't see the sox paying anywhere close to that for any player here's what i don't understand about what this team does with their money. ultimately its about winning it all, and with that being the case, why not overspend on guys who are basically a sure thing (Arod for example, Santana when he hits FA, Cabrera in FA, etc.) when you know for a fact having these kinds of players will most certainly get you into the playoffs and possibly beyond whats the point of saving money if you're not building a team that can win? i don't see the point, it's ridiculous I agree its one thing to overpay for Linebrink, Rowand or Hunter, they are just average to above average player. But if you are going to go after real "impact" free agents, guys you know are HOF caliber (Arod, Santana, Miggy, etc) thats a whole different ballgame.

I also posted this in the "Dye Calls up Kenny" thread since the two are related, but I wanted to give it its own thread since I think its basically the biggest story of the off season. In this article from the Sun Times I and anyone else who has been following KW's "plan" business can now wholeheartedly interpret what the whole fuss was about and how it has already translated onto pieces of this team. The sun times article seems to lay forth a lot we know already. Sometime in July KW and the organization decided 2007 was more of an aberration than a mainstay and if they upgrade with players who are "impact" players while at the same time keep the core in tact, they can turn a 72 win team into a champion in 1 off season. So step 1 in july was to retain 3 parts of the core, Dye, Buehrle, and AJ and part of doing so was KW laying forth the plan to add these "impact players". As interpreted from the article above, KW gave specific names, which we now know to be the likes of Hunter, Miguel Cabrera, and perhaps even Linebrink. I'm sure he told Dye, Buehrle, AJ that he would "do everything in his power" to get these guys in a sox uniform. They were on board and signed, step 1 complete. Step 2 was to acquire the veteran bullpen help piece. Step 2 was recently completed with signing of Linebrink to a 5 year 20 Mil deal, which by most accounts is defiantly overpaying. Nonetheless, step 2 as promised and laid forth by the plan was delivered. Step 2A was to sign Hunter to the 5 Year/75 Mil deal it was said he wanted. KW knew before the season was over that he had this big FA signing approved by the chairman. Step 2A failed when the angels swooped in and overbid everyone else for Hunter and got him to sign. Step 2B was to go after Miguel Cabrera, who everyone knew would be available, with a package of everything we got; either Fields or Crede, along with Gio, Danks, Broadway, etc. Well, step 2B just failed and even worse he landed on one of our division rivals....OUCH!! So basically this was the plan KW was talking about the whole time. The whole I have plan thing, and it will be revealed soon was basically all that. And Dye, Buehrle, and AJ were all informed of the plan back in July when they signed and to this point the plan has simply failed. Not that its necessarily because of something KW did or didn't do, just by unpredictability and the moving and shaking in the FA and trade markets. That being said KW's confident certainty about getting Hunter and Miguel Cabrera was a bit foolish in such an uncertain environment. Nonetheless, he was still as aggressive as he said he was going to be. That is what the article is referring to when it states that Dye called KW and asked what happened. Dye, just like the rest of us was wondering how the hell did we not get what we thought we were going to get, and what went wrong (which is obvious that the Tigers simply offered better talent). So there you have it, KW was planning on keeping the core; dye, buehrle, and AJ, as well as adding a SS (turned out to be Cabrera), veteran bullpen arm, and was going to add the likes of Hunter and Miguel Cabrera. Too bad it didn't work out, it actually would have been a vastly improved team. The point now is that with all of us recognizing the fact that the plan has basically failed and any attempt to replace the "impact" players with lesser free agents or trades will only piss us off. The article quotes KW in saying, "Asked if it was time to regroup, Williams said: ''No, we have to try to be the best team we can be." Which basically tells us all right there KW will continue to try and add these lesser players on cue with the "plan". On the other hand, we are saying forget it, its not worth it given what has just transpired, play the damn kids. I think this is the real turning point. It would have been nice for KW to say we're going to re-evaluate our position and consider a deviation from the original "plan". Even if it involved trading some of the vets already onboard (dye, buehrle, Konerko, AJ) and trying to get some young talent. Moreover it seems that KW (with an already approved payroll increase) just wants to keep to the gameplan (ala lovie smith) and continue to bring in now what we would call "non impact" type players. Stubborn? Yes! Foolish? Maybe! I'm sure there is revenue analysis in all this plan business on how having a team with Kids vs Names correlates to revenue streams, sponsorships, and tickets sales. However, in reality anything KW does from here on out, in terms of 2008, is all in vain. He can keep his "Core" and continue to add pieces from FA or trades, or he can gut the Vets and bring in some young talent, either way 2008 is defiantly over!! And personally, I would hope 2009 and beyond is on Kennys radar as well because if we learned anything from 2007 veteran laiden teams get very old and very bad very fast....cough Tigers cough!!!

The sun times article seems to lay forth a lot we know already. Sometime in July KW and the organization decided 2007 was more of an aberration than a mainstay and if they upgrade with players who are "impact" players while at the same time keep the core in tact, they can turn a 72 win team into a champion in 1 off season. So step 1 in july was to retain 3 parts of the core, Dye, Buehrle, and AJ and part of doing so was KW laying forth the plan to add these "impact players". As interpreted from the article above, KW gave specific names, which we now know to be the likes of Hunter, Miguel Cabrera, and perhaps even Linebrink. I'm sure he told Dye, Buehrle, AJ that he would "do everything in his power" to get these guys in a sox uniform. They were on board and signed, step 1 complete. Step 2 was to acquire the veteran bullpen help piece. Step 2 was recently completed with signing of Linebrink to a 5 year 20 Mil deal, which by most accounts is defiantly overpaying. Nonetheless, step 2 as promised and laid forth by the plan was delivered. Step 2A was to sign Hunter to the 5 Year/75 Mil deal it was said he wanted. KW knew before the season was over that he had this big FA signing approved by the chairman. Step 2A failed when the angels swooped in and overbid everyone else for Hunter and got him to sign. Step 2B was to go after Miguel Cabrera, who everyone knew would be available, with a package of everything we got; either Fields or Crede, along with Gio, Danks, Broadway, etc. Well, step 2B just failed and even worse he landed on one of our division rivals....OUCH!! So basically this was the plan KW was talking about the whole time. The whole I have plan thing, and it will be revealed soon was basically all that. And Dye, Buehrle, and AJ were all informed of the plan back in July when they signed and to this point the plan has simply failed. Not that its necessarily because of something KW did or didn't do, just by unpredictability and the moving and shaking in the FA and trade markets. That being said KW's confident certainty about getting Hunter and Miguel Cabrera was a bit foolish in such an uncertain environment. Nonetheless, he was still as aggressive as he said he was going to be. That is what the article is referring to when it states that Dye called KW and asked what happened. Dye, just like the rest of us was wondering how the hell did we not get what we thought we were going to get, and what went wrong (which is obvious that the Tigers simply offered better talent). So there you have it, KW was planning on keeping the core; dye, buehrle, and AJ, as well as adding a SS (turned out to be Cabrera), veteran bullpen arm, and was going to add the likes of Hunter and Miguel Cabrera. Too bad it didn't work out, it actually would have been a vastly improved team. The point now is that with all of us recognizing the fact that the plan has basically failed and any attempt to replace the "impact" players with lesser free agents or trades will only piss us off. The article quotes KW in saying, "Asked if it was time to regroup, Williams said: ''No, we have to try to be the best team we can be." Which basically tells us all right there KW will continue to try and add these lesser players on cue with the "plan". On the other hand, we are saying forget it, its not worth it given what has just transpired, play the damn kids. I think this is the real turning point. It would have been nice for KW to say we're going to re-evaluate our position and consider a deviation from the original "plan". Even if it involved trading some of the vets already onboard (dye, buehrle, Konerko, AJ) and trying to get some young talent. Moreover it seems that KW (with an already approved payroll increase) just wants to keep to the gameplan (ala lovie smith) and continue to bring in now what we would call "non impact" type players. Stubborn? Yes! Foolish? Maybe! I'm sure there is revenue analysis in all this plan business on how having a team with Kids vs Names correlates to revenue streams, sponsorships, and tickets sales. However, in reality anything KW does from here on out, in terms of 2008, is all in vain. He can keep his "Core" and continue to add pieces from FA or trades, or he can gut the Vets and bring in some young talent, either way 2008 is defiantly over!! And personally, I would hope 2009 and beyond is on Kennys radar as well because if we learned anything from 2007 veteran laiden teams get very old and very bad very fast....cough Tigers cough!!!

QUOTE(Chombi @ Dec 4, 2007 -> 11:51 PM) No. I'd like to cut him out of the picture. You can start by doing it in your avatar for me. I've been hearing rumbling of Rowand and the Royals on here and havent found it online yet. I will address that topic in the threads it's posted in but since this is a Rowand thread too, I will speak on it as well. If we decide to turn our focus to Rowand to avoid him going to the Royals this organization has problems. Who cares if he goes to the Royals. So what. They become favorites over us in the division. They are predicted 3rd instead of 4th or 5th. It's not like we are in the running to win the division and our biggest rival/contender was signing him. Then I'd say potentially a move like that make sense. Similar to how the yanks-Sox do business and how it never really matters anyways. The Sox got tricked already today when the Marlins used them for bait with the Tigers. Don't let Rowand do the same. Call his bluff and let him walk to KC. Heck, I will drive him to highway 70 and let him out in Blue Springs. I wasnt saying I would do it either it just seems like a reasonable number in terms of these FA deals. I dont really want Rowand hes no guarantee to hit .300 or even 20 HRS. Hes like a Bill Hall but more expensive. Rowand does nothing to this team in 2008 thats going to put them over the top. In reality nobody does, not hunter, rowand, jones. It doesn't matter. Sure the sox have some holes to fill and still need to putt butts in the seats, they would likely lose advertising and sponsorship deals if they gutted the team and went young, but nothing KW or anyone can do is going to turn this team from 72 wins to now 95+ wins against Cle and Det (and NY, Bos, LA). It just aint gonna happen. The sox can upgrade whatever positions they want and make an 81-84 win team....who hoo, but no one is going to win championships with Contreras/Danks/Flloyd in your rotation. You wanna be like the Angels and Red Sox and have a name at every postion fine, then do it. And that not rebuilding on the fly. But what CF or LF or anyone KW brings in (short of Santana and Arod) really gonna do in terms of beating out the Red Sox, Tigers, or Indians. NOTHING!!

If rowand would sign with the sox for 4 years 48 Mil would you do it?

This is exactly what I was thinking. I think this changes everything, granted the Tigers will get old very fast after 08. I dont really see the logic in going for it all in 2008 when your a 72 win team trying now to compete against 2 virutal 95 win locks. What is KW going to do between now and April to turn this team from 72 wins to what it appears the Tigers and Indians have on paper, 95 win teams. NOTHING, there is just nothing short of Arod and Santana thats going to do it. It would make sense actually to play all of Danks, Gio, Flloyd, Broadway, Owens, Sweeney, Fields a full season now. Get our young guys some experience build this franchise makes some trades add some pieces and be ready to compete again in 2009 or 2010 when the cyclye starts to reverse for Cle and Det. Problem is this is a business and you still gotta put butts in the seats. I think the right thing to do now is to trade Crede and Konerko and bring in some young talent, but thats not going to work in this business of generating revenue. No doubt if the sox add a Rowand or a an Andruw Jones they will be better and perhaps generate more revenue but in reality its not going to translate to championships on the field, at least not in 2008. Its a tough call to make I think being a large market large payroll team you cant get away with the whole gut and rebuild thing, you can only do KW's build on the fly. You still have huge sponserships deals, tv/radio, tickets to sell, etc etc and putting the florida marlins out there would hurt all the revenue streams. Thats why you dont see the yanks, mets, dodgers, angels, giants, every really go the gut and rebuild mode either, its just not the right market for that. So instead we will be stuck with moderate upgrades at a few positions that should make us competitive against the real teams in our league (NY, BOS, CLE, DET, LAA) and we will be 81-81 in 2008.......whoop de do......its just reality.

Yeah im getting really sick of watching the division become a powerhouse with the exception of the sox. We have some solid players but the Indians and Tigers are much more well rounded and continue to get unique in trades and acquisitions of players. If we are gonna do somethng then do something, otherwise with the Indians and Tigers looking like 95 win locks I would let them get old in 08 and build for 09 and 10. What can the sox realistically do for 08 that makes them a 72 to 95 win team....NOTHING. So play our young guys and trade some aging veterans and build this thing for a run come 2009 or 2010 while the Sheffields, Kenny Rogers, Renterias, and Maggs get old and broken.

U do all realize Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis are now members of the Tigers.

and the al central gets better again the sox are toast

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 08:58 AM) Great post. Riske would probably be fine as a last guy out of the pen, but that is about it. We signed Linebrink to be the primary righthanded set up man. To compare the two guys, is apples and oranges, no matter what the statistics say. Then what do we do with MacDougal?

I find it more strange the sox make a huge deal out of giving pitchers more than 3 years and have no problem giving linebrink and the 21 HRs he gave up last year in 160 IP a nice 4 year deal. I still like the signing cuz the pen is desperate for any dependable arm out there.

One thing that has confused me has been the non situation involving Bobby Jenks and a possible contract extension. Im surprised there hasnt been an effort from the sox, our fans, or the media to get a Jenks extension on the table. I think you need to lock this guy up now. He is one of the best closers in the game and still young. He has about 2.5 Years of service time and will be eligible for arbitration after 2008. I would like to the sox sign him to something like 3-4 years and buy out his arbitration and FA years. I understand he can still be had in 2009 for relative league minimum but I think we should show some desire to keep this guy here by going to him with an extension for 4 Years around 16 Mil perhaps with an option at 6 Mil for the least year like Joe Nathan's. Anyone else feel we need to sign Jenks or know if the team has said such things?

You gotta think just from the ups and downs of baseball that they anything that can go wrong will thing wont happen again. I dont know where that leaves this team buts its really hard to be that bad with that amount of talent. Id love to see the sox make a push for Ryan Freel, Ryan Church, Nick Markakis, etc. Im not really someone who thinks Rowand can just put up the same #s he did last year. I wouldn't give rowand a dime over 3/30 but he will probably get at least 4/48 from someone so forget it.

OVERPAID...when we signed hermanson from the NL in 2005 we gave him what 2 yrs 5 MIL. Thats what this guy should have got u cant trust pitchers who pitched in pitcher friendly parks in the NL. They get lit up in the AL.

Since when do the sox overPAY this type of money to get someone, period. I know we have seen some bloated relievers contracts like Baez, Walker, Spier, etc....but wtf are we giving this guy anything over 2 years 5 MIL for????b

QUOTE(joeynach @ Nov 20, 2007 -> 04:30 PM) Even if we get Hunter do you think we make a play for Crisp to play LF. Also what kind of package would it take to get melky cabrera, the yanks don't necessarily have en everyday spot for him with Damon, Matsui, and Abreu. Plus I think Shannon Stewart is an option for LF he can probably be had for about $5 Mil per year and will hit .290 ish.

Even if we get Hunter do you think we make a play for Crisp to play LF. Also what kind of package would it take to get melky cabrera, the yanks don't necessarily have en everyday spot for him with Damon, Matsui, and Abreu.

QUOTE(Allsox @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 08:13 AM) http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...T-sox01.article Would love to see Torii robbing HRs for us instead of from us! Better track record than the PA$$ION (Rowand) and at least CF won't be a gaping hole like it has been the last 2 yrs. You can worry about the $$. You need to worry about what your team is going to be like if he is here and trust KW and JR will take care of the $ aspect so that team is still well off. Its hard to sit here as a fan and say I want him at 5/75 but not 6/90, of course thats true, but you have to think about it is in a white sox uniform or not, period. At this point in a white sox uniform is just a huge upgrade to this lineup and defense and thats all that matters right now. If the sox spend $15 mil on Hunter and are raising payroll $30 mil they still have plenty to spend on pitching, etc. You just dont know so you can turn the guy away by defaults of money.

What the hell do we do with Uribe, why is he still here. Does this validate my theory that the Uribe is the new Cintron for an extra $1.5 Mil bucks. Just the all INF position backup?