fathom

QUOTE(GreenSox @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:57 PM) I agree that no one could win with this roster (although Ozzie is doing about as bad a job with it as is possible). I think you significantly underestimate the influence that Ozzie has on personnel. Who wanted Lee, Ordonez and Frank off this team? That would be Ozzie and his ego. Who wants the free swingers and hackers on the team? Ozzie Who wanted Erstad ahead of the far superior Podsednik? Ozzie because Ozzie loves guys who can hit grounders to either side of the infield, and then run out their copius outs hard. Who wanted Anderson and Sweeney off this team quickly, but had no problem with Owens and his zero walks (until his last game) and zero RBIs for a month? Ozzie. Who actually uses .200 hitters with no power as pinch hitters and, incredibly, as DH? Ozzie. Now this team needed retooling after 03. Thank GOODNESS we won before Guillen got Kenny to completely change this team to, well, what we have this year. Well said...it baffles my mind when people think a manager has no say about who's on the roster. QUOTE(Jordan4life_2007 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:57 PM) I get so sick of that argument. Out of the starters, only Garland had a career year. Contreras? He had started less than 40 games before 2005. So it's not like he had 3 or 4 mediocre years then blew up in 2005. The 'pen? Yeah, Cotts and Pollite both had career years. And you can throw Hermanson in there as well, atleast until his back fell off. But let's not forget how bad guys like Shingo/Marte/Vizcaino were. And you also fail to mention how brilliantly Ozzie handled Bobby Jenks that year. Again, no manager could win with this old, slow, unathletic group. Guys are breaking down left and right. Minor leaguers, outside of Fields, that have produced nothing. Established, proven guys sucking a fat one all year. Ozzie is the least of this team's problems. Poor Luis...one bad game against the Indians, and he's lumped in with someone who went crazy and someone who was released a few months into the season.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:51 PM) Which is why KW deserves so much more blame than Osvaldo. That's the problem.....KW is Ozzie's boy, and vice versa. If KW is trying to say this isn't Ozzie's fault, then it's the player's fault....which should mean it's KW's fault this year. However, we'll keep firing/releasing people who aren't directly involved with this s***.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:54 PM) I take issue with the 90-win-Ozzie-villain storyline, though. That bullpen was hideous and his situation in CF was bad, too. The offense DIED in the second half as well. That we won 90 games is a testament to something. I'm just not sure what. We won 90 games in spite of a poorly constructed roster and terrible bullpen. Ozzie should have made KW go get another CF then, as playing Mackowiak was an insult to this team. That was an error by both Ozzie and KW.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:51 PM) And what does Ozzie have to do with that? You pretty much just backed up our argument. I was talking about the fans turning on him. I was just thinking of how Dusty was so beloved by the Cubs after his first year with the Cubs. A few terrible seasons later, they were demanding he be gone. I don't want to see this happen with Ozzie (as much as you don't believe), as I'd rather see this team win games with him at the helm than not win games.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:50 PM) No, but people love Ozzie. People associate Ozzie with the White Sox. Like Podsednik, which is half the reason he was brought back (the other half was, s***! All the other Leadoff hitters are expensive!!). My issues are with KW, Rick Hahn and our scouts. Our coaches, too. I take SMALL issue with Ozzie here and there, but he is NOT the problem. Let's just see how much they love him if this team goes on to lose 100 games. Not many 100 million dollar payroll teams can possibly lose 100 games.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:43 PM) If Ozzie gets extended now, the reason to do it is, It'll help the average fan and attendance. It's a PR move, if he gets it now. There's no reason to have him fired, though. OH WAIT I FORGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 /green No offense, but Ozzie means nothing for PR purposes. Winning is the only PR that really matters with that team. After that, it's the Buehrle situation. The Sox could fire Ozzie and bring in some grandma off the street, and if the Sox have a winning season, people will show up. I don't think too many people show up to see Ozzie in the dugout.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:41 PM) Regardless of what you think of Ozzie, there is no realistic way you can give him an extension this year with our play, even if this is KW's fault much more than his. Exactly....I know G. Pratt loves the Sox more than any individual associated with the team, and that's what puzzles me how he can be 100 pct behind him after what's going on. If the Sox can play better baseball over the rest of the year (not hard to do), then go ahead and extend him. However, extending now just seems like the wrong message to send. QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:42 PM) See: 3 posts below yours. Which one?

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2007 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:35 PM) There isn't a manager in the history of baseball that could win with this current group. We've seen what Ozzie can do when he's got the pieces. I hope he's back. So what we're saying is that when he gets a pitching staff full of guys having career years (starters and bullpen), he can lead them to the championship? Well, that's great....and I'll gladly keep Ozzie around if we can guarantee having 4 relievers who are basically perfect. However, that was an anomaly that season, and for almost a year now, the Sox have seemed very flat and lethargic. Ozzie's going to have a few years now of young players and being in a position where we're not expected to win over 77 games or so. I just hope he has a lot more patience with the young guys than he's shown. I'm through rooting for him to get fired, as the comments in the media, as stupid as they are, show that he's not going to be the scapegoat.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:34 PM) I think Ozzie has done a bad job this year, but with all the injuries and the suckiness of the offense and inability to find a bullpen, he can't be blamed, which I think you are implying. Walker needs to go, first and foremost. Yes, Walker is who I was referring to. I also think that Cintron should be DFA'd.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:33 PM) You're also the #1 Ozzie hater, so... Yep....and I'm still waiting for him to get the ship righted. Do you believe he should be brought back if this team loses 100 games this year? Is it possible that maybe the media stories circulating outside of this city are right that the players have tuned him out? You and I have no clue....but this is ridiculous right now.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2007 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:32 PM) Your Cubs propping is getting out of control. You realize they have one less loss than we do, right? The Cubs have all the talent in the world....we should just be thankful they've struggled in close games. However, two of our biggest issues have been relief and bench play, and they have very good talent at both those positions. Please tell me you didn't waste your only post in this thread to try and say that D. Ward/Pagan isn't a huge upgrade over anyone we have on the bench.

11 straight series losses? And yet, the only one to lose his job is our scouting director?

QUOTE(Soxfest @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:24 PM) No reason to extend OG at this time! Yep....if this team ends up winning 65 games this year, I don't believe you can bring him back.

I hate this team....and everything about it.

QUOTE(briguy27 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:29 PM) 91 mph fastball right there and can't hit it. Only the 2007 White Sox Why is Jenks still in?

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:28 PM) So if it is the players fault, get arid of them. I would rather see Sweeney in RF that MackowiDyeGonazalez No hitting Monster. I would say hit, or walk home tonight ladies if I was Ozzie. But I am just a mean, pissed off bastard. That's what I don't get....if we're trying to say this isn't Ozzie's fault (extension talk), then why are we not making any changes to the personnel?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:27 PM) STOP PINCH HITTING CINTRON IN THE 9TH! WHAT THE f***! Like I said, good managing late in this game by Ozzie.

QUOTE(briguy27 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:27 PM) It amazes me how bad they are. But at least we want to give Ozzie a 4 year extension....excuse me while I go puke.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:27 PM) STOP PINCH HITTING CINTRON IN THE 9TH! WHAT THE f***! The Cubs ph D. Ward....we ph Alex Cintron. The cubs pr Pagan....we pr ?

It just amazes me how lifeless this team is.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:22 PM) Yes, a delicious 93-94 mph fastball with no movement. This should about do it for this current collection of White Sox members. I'd love to hear of a trade following today, but I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow. I was watching Game 3 of the Red Sox ALDS last night on DVD, and there's no comparison between Jenks then and now. What in the hell has happened to his fastball?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:21 PM) Suicide f***ing squeeze. It was a no brainer. How do you not throw a pitch out? The old, fun Ozzie would have thrown like 3 pitch outs in that sequence.

Ozzie's getting bent over by Pinella this inning....no big surprise.

Isn't it amazing what you can do when you have a good bench? QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:19 PM) If Williams were smart he'd deal Jenks before the beginning of 2008. Let me guess...93 mph so far?

What's the velocity of Jenks fastball right now?