fathom

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ May 30, 2007 -> 11:15 PM) The problem is players not performing to expectations or ability. It can still be turned around, but this series against the Twins is hard to swallow. But, it started with that last game versus Tampa. No one stops momentum like Javy Vazquez.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:57 PM) I will cheer for my favorite team's players and could care less about ex-white sox. You cheer for other team's players if you want. Kudos to you. I have no players I root for outside of the White Sox. Hell, I grew up playing with Curtis Granderson, but I don't root for him to do good. I'll root for any players that help beat whoever the Sox are contending against for a playoff spot, and whoever is facing the Cubs.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:55 PM) So 3 games? OK. Yeah - McCarthy is/was overrated. We got at least 2 and maybe 3 good players for him. Good job Kenny. How did this turn into an argument about his trade value? We were talking about Ozzie prefering veterans over young players. Someone brought up a great example of this.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:53 PM) This year. And Duque's pitching in one of the best pitcher's parks in the NL, and McCarthy in one of the worst pitcher's parks in the AL. I'm very happy with what we've seen from Danks so far, but I really think McCarthy will put up respectable numbers this year. I would say it's about a 60 pct chance that Danks ends the season with a better ERA than McCarthy.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:49 PM) He has what, 3 good games? Yeah - massively underrated. Let's see....he pitched a gem at Texas after we had been embarrassed the few games before it. Remember the Buehrle debacle with accusing the other team of stealing signs? He had a great game at Boston in which no one in the world gave us a shot due to having to make it up. At that point in the season, one or two games meant everything. If the Indians ever overtook the Sox in the standings, who knows what would have happened.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:48 PM) I'm not saying it's right (in fact I f***in hate it), but most managers are like that. A few examples- Chad Billingsley is in the Dodgers bullpen pitching well while they let Mark Hendrickson suck it up The Twins have had Garza and Slowey in AAA while they have had Ponson and Ortiz in the rotation (although not anymore). No way in hell Ponson should have been on their opening day roster out of spring training. Billy Butler is in AAA while the Royals play guys like Shane Costa and Emil Brown. Hendrickson's been better for the Dodgers this year than Billingsley has.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:46 PM) Now command = movement? Which is it? You are all over the place. My thought is he is not telling them to lose velocity for command if they already have shown both, which both Jenks and Thorton showed last year. Do you think he is teaching them less velocity for even more command when they have already shown they had both last year? It's both....if you hear Cooper speak, he never says a problem with the pitcher is lack of velocity. He's always say it's command and movement. Even last year, they wouldn't say they were concerned with Buehrle's velocity. I don't know what the answer is....the loss of velocity across the board for our pitchers is one of the most irritating things I've witnessed as a Sox fan.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:44 PM) How did that work out? I think El Duque is putting up better numbers than McCarthy still. McCarthy is a young stud and El Duque is regressing? Well, it cost us a few games during the tailspin of 2005. Thankfully, McCarthy was able to be a slump breaker, as he had some huge games when he finally got his chance. For as overrated as he was on this site, his contributions during 2005 are massively underrated.

QUOTE(SoxAce @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:43 PM) Thank you. BTW, I hate sounding like Hawk, but the umps did f*** up his outing. The thing is, Garland is the last pitcher on the team who the umps should play a big role. Especially against the Twins, he just needs to make the opposition put the ball in play. His success over the past few years can be related, in large part, to his improved command.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:41 PM) Brandon McCarthy vs. El Duque August 2005. Game....set...match!

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:37 PM) Overthrowing is not the same as throwing your max velocity. Overthrowing does not equal more velocity. In fact if you are overthrowing it will sometimes hurt your velocity. I am surprised you didn't know this. Thorton pitched effectively last year on the White Sox throwing near 100mph while under Coop's teachings. I believe Coop teaching command first - but if you are throwing 97-100 with command I don't believe he is teaching them to hold back and get MORE command. That is assinine. Many pitching coaches believe you get more movement if you don't throw as hard. MacDougal is someone who they told to try and get more sink on his fastball instead of trying to throw it at 97 mph. It worked last year, as he was getting tons of grounders. Javy Vazquez is another person who is trying to throw with less velocity in order to get more command. I agree about the negative impact of overthrowing, but Thornton is someone who just need to focus more on throwing strikes instead of blowing it by every hitter.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:37 PM) Let me check to see if I said anything about age. Be right back. No I didn't. I did say something about experience and guess what, Jenks has more than Aardsma. Aardsma isn't exactly this young pitcher straight out of the minors. He's not the type of player that we were referencing that Ozzie doesn't prefer.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:28 PM) What? That was Ozzie's biggest mistake of the game. It was either MacDougal or Aardsma. That's like having to select either L. Lohan or B. Spears to be your 12 year old daughter's role model.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:23 PM) You know what is kind of humorous about this is he gave an opp. to an inexperienced pitcher today in a key sitaution and the player failed and Guillen is getting his rear chewed on for not going with a more experienced guy. Yeah, when I think of Aardsma, I really think of him as such a young kid, and I think of Jenks as a 40 year old pitcher who's been around forever. Aardsma has been in the majors longer than Jenks has.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:19 PM) You are telling me Coop went to Jenks and Thorton and told them to stop throwing near 100mph and get more control of the pitch? They had good control when they were throwing near 100mph right? But Coop wanted them to have EVEN MORE control of their pitches and throw slower? Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. It is all Coop's fault. Yep, I absolutely believe they told Thornton that he can be more effecitve at 95 mph with control than throwing 98 mph with less control. Thornton used to be wild as hell with Seattle. I even heard Aardsma say earlier in the year that he was focusing more on command than overthrowing. Jenks has often stated that he's not as concerned about his velocity as he is his command. Cooper's not the only position coach that teaches this way. Hell, Rothschild is the opposite, and his pitchers always get hurt. QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:24 PM) From what I have been reading our minors have some good pitching depth. Isn't young pitching what every team wants? Don't you think the Sox could part with couple to get some veterans (Ichiro/Griffey) to replace the ones they will be losing? Let me know if that sticks. Griffey Jr. should be nowhere near this team from 2008 and on. Ichiro's going to get a ton of money this offseason, and when exactly was the last time that he lead his team to a good season? Also, don't buy into the hype with our minor league pitchers. Gio is our best pitching prospect (even he projects to be a 3, at best), and guys like Russell, Faustino, and Eggy still have a long way to go before they can be pencilled into the Sox rotation

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:16 PM) Part of the problem is that they trade young players they acquire/draft (Reed, Morse, and Olivo) and get something they need and has more valuable - a proven veteran pitcher (Freddy Garcia). Organizations view the development of players differently. The Sox seem to think of them as chips to get veterans. The Twins like to develop them and then lose them to free agency. And now we're at a point where the veterans we've traded for are either old or their contracts are done. Now, the lack of developing our minor leaguers is killing our depth at the big league level.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:13 PM) Stresses, ok, I can see that. I don't think he means stop throwing 100mph if you have control with it. Didn't Big Bobby do that? I don't believe Coop made him stop. There are other things involved in the equation besides the teaching of Coop. If you are that interested in it I think a little more research should be involved before fingers start getting pointed. I'm just sayin, I'm not sayin. You make it seem like Dusty and Ozzie are the only ones like this. If given the choice, any manager would rather have the vets than the young-ins - especially on a talented championship team. EVERY MANAGER! What manager isn't when given the choice? That's what we're saying...find a manager who's a little more willing to stick with young players. And if Cooper isn't the one telling the players to throw with less velocity so that they have more command, then he better be on the witch hunt to find out why it's happening to almost everyone over the last two years. The "stressful innings from the WS" excuse can't be used.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) Absolutely ridiculous. Young players can't tolerate Ozzie? That is a ridiculous excuse. If that is the case then I don't want those certain young players on this team. It is sad that you have to coddle certain young players. I doubt the Sox ever go into full rebuilding mode under KW. I think it's a two way straight with Ozzie and the young prospects. Ozzie is so much like Dusty when it comes to his love for veterans.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:05 PM) Couldn't velocity have something to do with the way they are training? Maybe we should look at our trainer and the types of workout he is putting the Sox pitchers on. You really think Cooper has something to do with the reduction of velocity? Why didn't it happen before the 2005 season? Did this happen to the minor league system while he was down there? Maybe, just maybe, there is another reason than Cooper. Just throwing that out there. Yeah, who really knows. However, I've been told that Cooper stresses, which is funny to say after today, command on the pitches more than velocity.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:02 PM) This has been the battle cry every year except 2005 from every unknowledgable baseball fan that considers themselves a Sox fan. Before they won the World Series the battle cry included Reinsdorf. People are always calling for the GM's and manager's head. It is ridiculous. You don't win by doing that. An organization is going to have its ups and downs. What an organization needs most is continuity. The only way you don't want continuity is if these are bad baseball people who have s*** for brains. This is not the case and it was proved in 2005. These are good baseball people that you just want to throw away. Why? Because they are a .500 team on May 30th? Please - let the season play out a bit. Let's see who becomes available and if they can possibly acquire an Ichiro or Griffey or Freel. You don't just start blowing s*** up because of a mediocre couple of months. We've played below .500 baseball for far too long. The biggest reason I want to see Ozzie fired is that I don't want him around our young players when we go into full rebuilding mode next year. Let him go manage the Reds and take Erstad with him.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:01 PM) And how about leads/ games blown? I'd imagine this club is near the top. I know they've already blown more than the Twins did all last season. 9 games LOST when leading in the 6th inning or later.

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:50 PM) The only two people who should be kept on the current coaching staff is Coop and Razor.... And we might need a new GM with a new point of view and who would re-tool the whole farm system coaching and player-wise. I'd have no problem with Cooper being gone. There has to be a reason that these guys are all losing their velocities. This is true straight years that the pitching staff, as a whole, has underachieved.

QUOTE(beautox @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:07 PM) lol what would you call jeff nelson in the later days of his career? Washed-up

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:40 PM) Another generalization? Everyone on this site, ok, I guess if you say so then it's correct. Not me but I am a nobody on this site I suppose, all I wanted was a guy who could throw strikes and not walk a guy. You know full well people would 2nd guess him for bringing him in to a nonsave but if it makes you feel better to not admit it that is ok by me. He gets 2nd guessed in every loss and from what I see mostly by you. I will continue to state the players need to execute better or fix them or get better players. It was a team loss, offense shut down after 3 ings and how many walks were there. Bobby could have walked the guy, guess what, 2nd guess time, whether you think so or not. This is my last post to you about this, as all you're doing is saying that everything is just a "generalization". Yes, I'm one of Ozzie's biggest critics on this site. However, go back and check the game thread if you want. I had no problem with MacDougal starting the 9th inning. I even said that every manager in baseball would do that. However, once it got to the situation where Hunter was the make or break batter for the game, that's when you have to bring in your best reliever. If you don't think that Jenks is our best reliever, then you must be watching a different team play. He's been the lone bright spot for the entire pitching roster the last few weeks.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:29 PM) Ahh now the May stats. Mgrs get 2nd guessed all the time adn book it he would have been 2nd guessed but if you say he would not have then ok. The aspect of Jenks not having pitched in 9 days ie the rust factor or he for some reason has trouble in those nonsave spots has nothing to do with it as it does not fit what you wanted, well ok. The players have to execute and most of them did not after the third inning. He pitched last Friday. Jenks is the best reliever we have, and it's not even close. Since every single f***ing person on this site was begging for Jenks instead of Aardsma, can we please knock it off about how everyone would have been second guessing Ozzie?