BrandoFan

No you weren't. Like I said before, seeing today Sox pouring it on one the best pitching teams in the majors simply because 2 players came through clutch (Graff and Hurt) early on and the effect it had on the rest of the guys, only re-enforces my point: If Crede-Konerko-Lee-Maggs hit ANYWHERE near what they've shown in the past they are capable off, Sox would be in first place, pulling away from Minny Mediocritites with each game. With out the Gary Ward cancer factor (the sight of Sox hitters actually recognizing breaking pitches and putting mechanically sound, level swing on the ball is a pure delight in light of what's been happening up to this point with our formerly mighty O), this is indeed a 95+ win team as I expected it be coming into this season. Too bad they are perfoming like a 65-win team so far. Let's hope things change.

with a white-hot scythe, repeatedly.....for the disgusting way he has allowed Sox small-ball offense, the former bread and butter of this team to deteriorate to this point. Hitting is extreremely high-maintanence thing....and this f***er has let these hitters to become selfish, complacent and scared all rolled into one however hard it is to believe.. Pitch-recognition? None. SZ judgement? Nope. Sound mechanics? Na-ah. Confidence? Zero. Hitting plan and adjustment? Not many. Hell, even batspeeds suffered, with Sox going from one of the best fastball-hitting teams in 2000 to not handling 88mph heaters down the middle in 2003.....It would take Greg Walker a year just to undo the damage done to the Solo Shot Wonders. Let's hope today is just a beginning.

You'll be suprised what impecable hand-eye coordination, fairly good SZ judgement and excellent batspeed can do to "pad" one's stats, lol Borchard should try it sometimes.

As fra as trading Elo goes, if they price is right, no prob, How about Helton/Edmonds for Loaiza, Diaz, Almonte and Konerko?.....Just kidding but you get the idea)

What part of "the future of this team prety much hinges on making postseason this year and the resultant increase in attendance/revenue/national exposure"-type statements don't you understand? I know my reality, brotha.

Are you f***ing carazy: 1. A-Rod plays one of the toughest defensive positions and is one of the best at it. Leads the game in DP turned, has great range, great arm and only 3 errors whereas I can see Frank comitting 3 errors in ONE game one fine afternoon. 2. A-Rod is much faster than Frank, which not only translates to more SB, but also a ton of extra bases taken, runs scored and GIDP stayed out of....Do you think A-Rod having a whopping 18 more runs scored than Frank despite not having nearly the OBP is a giant coincidence? 3. f*** the SO, who cares how many times one strikes out, if one also slugs....f*** the OBP too- with Frank's speed he gets stranded at 1st second to none, Jose Valentin has more runs scored for crying out loud...No, driving in runs has been the biggest problem on this team. A-Rod has more RBIs and has been more clutch. "Its not what you hit, it's when you hit?" ever heard that? 4. A-Rod is only entering his prime and will some day drive in 170-180 RBIs if he ever develops an "eye" like Sosa did after turning 32. Frank is over the hill, a mental case. CASE f***ING CLOSED.

That's semantics. Considering how much success Sox had in the past, 5 pennants, 4 ALCS, 1 trip to WS would put us on the national map, would send the message to any owner thinking of buying us out that we are one of the premiere franchizes in a great city that is worth all the money and new stadiums in the world.....It would be a great start if anything else. Call it a baby dynasty if you want...hope it grows up to be a crazy-sexy, irresistable Dynasty thereafter. LOL . Don't be fooled, Cleveland has NOTHING. Bradley is the only guy worth having. They are nowhere near the powerhouse (Ramirez, Thome, Gonzalez, Fryman, Alomar, Lofton, younger Vizquel, etc) they were few years back and even THEN we mustered enough to kick their ass one a regular basis....Sabathia is a horse, but he wouldn't crack our top 3. Nobody else. 2006 is the earliest and the Sox would still kick their ass if our payroll is abything close to 75 mill. I can't even whisper "Cubs" and "World Series Champions"....."Cleaning woman"????!!!!!! LOL The only bad part about being a Sox fan is being associated with other non-die-hard Sox fans. They are the worst and have played into JR's hands.. Say what you will about Bears/Bulls/Cubs fans, at least they pack the house and give their teams a chance. It's do or die this season. The underachieving cycle (2001-2003 so far) must be broken sooner or later. As does JR's Evil Empire. What's next - are you gonna commend me for not switching my race or gender, too? LMAO! Thanks for the kind words. I hope it never comes to that...but then again I was saying the same thing about tennis just a few years back. (:

The Sox are not building a dynasty right now, even if they started turning things around...the dynasty teams like the yankees of the last 7 years could piss on the Sox. The Sox hopefully have enough pieces for the playoffs, and now that looks near impossible. If you are looking for a dynasty, you better find a new hat. Unfortunately, that is the fate we were given when we were born, or chose to be, Sox fans. 1. The dynasty has been in the building stage since 1999. Considering how f***ing weak AL Central really is, the next 3-5 years present a truly unique oppotunity, a great window. Cleveland is in awful shape and Minnesota is so beatable it's not even funny. Just because Sox may not buy, er, I mean win 4 championships in 7 years like Yankees did, doesn't mean 4 trips to ALCL and posible one to WS in 5 years is out of the question. Pieces are there, payroll isn't. It's not like Sox lucked out with a trio of Zito-Mulder-Hudson/Prio-Wood-Zambrano caliber. Instead, we have depth but need to make ONE big mive/signing that will put us over the top. Giles might be that guy. Or Edmonds. If Cubs win WS before us, it will be like losing an arm. Maybe not quite, but it won't be easily getover-able. Passion and heart. Look into it. 2. With your lowered expectations/inferiority complex, no wonder JR is getting away with raping this team. It's not about being a fairweather fan, either- it's all about rooting for the team that is alive , has good people running it and legitimately wants to f***ing WIN. If Sox miss the boat this year, JR will gut this team. I will be done as a die-hard Sox fan, but I will still follow them once in a while, just like I will cease caring about tennis when Agassi retires...No way will I be switching or changing hats, bro. But life IS too short to give a damn about a franchise that doesn't give a damn about you. Consider it a devorce of sorts. Tough but necessary

Don't be fooled by the hype and incomplete stats- as of right now, Daubach is twice the hitter that Borchard is. Especially in clutch. Heck, Willie Harris might end up outhitting Joe when he comes back if he ever got the ground-ball mentality down. Nobody bats 420 in AAA over almost 90 atbats without having good skills. And, frankly, JoBo's overrated defense and nonexistent running don't overcompensate for his mediocre batspeed, loopy swing, no eye and lack of exceptional strike zone perception. He is a work in progress to say the least, and is horrible from the right side. Just a poor man's Russel Branyan.

Don't be surprised if the "clean slate" lasted for a decade or so. Not me- I am done with this team if they don't make playoffs and continue to expand the payroll. With 80+ WS-free years, with Cubs coming on strong and with AL Central being so weak....if Sox won't want to build a dynasty for the next 3-5 years, they never will. I can tolerate losing, but not this pathetic circus. 1999 team was mediocre but fun; this one is insulting and full of heart-break.

1. Put down your phantasi b-ball sheetz and join the rest of the commonsense-endowed world. I may not have seen or taped all games, but I've seen enough. 2. Considering how many 2-1, 4-3-type games we lost and how many RISP we stranded early on....the only team that has outplayed us was Seattle and even in that series had our hitter done ANYTHING close (forget about improvement) to what they used to do in previous years, they would be easily won and Gordon/Koch wouldn't ven get the chance to blow them. I can safely say that we should have absolutely DESTROYED Detroit, Baltimore, KC and Minnesota and we should have taken 4 out of 6 against Oakland, 2 out of 3 against D-Backs, 3 of 4 at Toronto, etc. 2000 team certainly won a bulk of those "winnable" games. 3. Not that it matters in the end, but you are flaout wrong about how many overachievers this team has: Jimenez and Loaiza are the only ones as I pointed out before. Yet even their contribution pales in comparison to how much Sox did NOT get from the manyt under-achievers. For someone who prides himself on statistical prowess, you sure as hell ignore a lot of vital numbers like RISP, OPS-against, rolling 3-year RC average, etc. You are also wrong in your underestimating the adverse aggregate effect that Konerko/Crede/Ordonez's cumulative 850 point (OPS-wise) drop-off had on the team. That probably comes to 40 RBI that Sox didn't get from those 3 players alone. 4. When it comes to offense, you CAN'T underestimate the chain-reaction effect one or two big hits/hitters can have on the REST of the team. Do you rememeber how many times Sox batted around first half 2000? Do you remember one 2-put hits galvanized the entire team and we blew people out mercilessly. Therefore just a couple of severely underachiving hitters can go a long way in f***ing up the entire offense, especially considering that Olivo and Borchard are just learning and shouldn't be counted on save the day- it's the job of 1-7 hitters. Sorry, but this team is INFINITELY worse than the most conservative fan had any right to expect. This team is WAY more talented than 2001 one that won 84 games. You're just stubborn to admit it because you were selling this team short pretty much since the beginning and your "rep" is at stake.

last time i checked you won or lost with 25 guys, not 4. Yes those players are underachieving, so what? The fact remains, this team has about average talent, and below average winning spirit. Their record speaks for itself. 1. I think you're not getting something here- if those four perform anywhere near their capabilities (as shown by the 3-4-year breakdown), Sox are 12+ games over .500. Easily. 2. Our pitching has been pretty solid, certainly better than in 2000. Check the stats, then add to it the fact that Koch and White can only improve at this point...The problem is the offense, specifically what we are not getting from our LF-RF-1B-3B spots....you simply can't argue with that. I will repeat myself. Those 4 players HAVE let me down, and other players are doing better than expected. Overall, based on record alone, the sox are performing a little worse than i expected. Of late? They are horrifying me. Pray tell me just WHO it is that is so blatantly over-performing to the point where it compensates (as far as aggregate effect on the success of this team) for the horrific dropoffs in production from 4-7 spots/LF-RF-1B-3B as detailed in the above post? Are Wunsht and Marte doing a bit better than expected? No, because both have enough blown saves and inherited runners scored to overshadow their ridiculously good ERAs. Olivo? Not really. Borchard? Yeah right. Garland/Wright? Gethef***oureheah. Valentin? No way. Koch? Gordon? Glover? Burly? Colon? Maybe Daubach and Rios? Rowand? Harris? I am listening, ears all open... Outside of Loaiza, Jimenez is only one I can think of who's been better than expected and yet even he is in a prolonged slump now. Sure Thomas also seems to be doing better than expected, but since his RISP numbers are so sad, we can safely conclude that he has padded his stats and in fact has been in line with what was expected off him. Maybe a little worse. So my larger point remains: considering how many winnable games we ended up squandering, if our middle of the line-up peformed to the B level (notice I am not asking them to improve, just to saty the stay), Sox are in first place. Plain and f***ing simple.

last time i checked you won or lost with 25 guys, not 4. Yes those players are underachieving, so what? The fact remains, this team has about average talent, and below average winning spirit. Their record speaks for itself. 1. I think you're not getting something here- if those four perform anywhere near their capabilities (as shown by the 3-4-year breakdown), Sox are 12+ games over .500. Easily. 2. Our pitching has been pretty solid, certainly better than in 2000. Check the stats, then add to it the fact that Koch and White can only improve at this point...The problem is the offense, specifically what we are not getting from our LF-RF-1B-3B spots....you simply can't argue with that.

1. Sox are most certainly not out of it. If it were AL East/West we were talking about, maybe, but Minnesotta is simply not.that.good. If our offense was performing anywhere near the level they did in 99-02, Sox win 2 out of 3 in Metrodome, 2 against D-Backs, sweep LA, sweep Detroit, take 2 out of 3 in Baltimore, 4 out of 6 against A's, sweep KC and split the series with Seattle. No excuse fdor Sox nt being 12 games over 500. We can turn it around. 2. Baseball is NOT stock market, and even in there buying high selling low only works out roughly 40% of the time.....What do you get for Loaza? Would A's part with Harden? Would Angels give their hard-thrower? Would Pirates give Giles? Etc, etc, etc......I do NOT want Caruso-Vining-Howry type returns, and I am afraid that's exactly what Kenny would get. 3. I was indeed saying "trade Eldred, Baldwin and Parque" in July 2000 was because they were all pitching over their heads and their ERA's were still relatively unimpressive; I was sure then they would never have as a high a value again....Loaiza doesn't give me the same feeling--I believe he, like Sammy Sosa and Lois Gonzalez before him, has indeed turned it around and has been able to realize the talent he ALWAYS had. They didn;'t call him a "milion-dallar arm" for nothing, you know... While he will not sustain his ridiculous sub-2.00 ERA, I am confident that he can post 17-8, 3.60 ERA numbers in the future....Add to it the fact that Burly might be hurt and Colon will ask for a lot of money Sox will not pay, can you really afford to give him away? Unless you can land somebody speacial in return, fogeboutit.

So does anyone else out there think this team is not talented and performing at the level that was expected coming into this season? Anyone?

There is nothing contradictory here whatsoever: I DO care about the premier prospects and their performance but only in terms of how much they can help the Big Club in the future. If Cotts goes 7+ innings and Ks 15 and the Barons end up losing because the remaining players are s***, I wouldn't shed a tear. On the other hand, if Barons win 10-7 with Neal giving up all seven in 3 inn of work, I would consider it a really bad news. See now?

While I agree fundamentally on the "depth" thing...to be fair, BMR: --Kip Wells is a young star. No doubt about that. --Josh Fogg is a really solid ML'er. Would be a good #4 on most team and #2-3 on quite a few ones. --Stumm, Rauch, Barcelo and Corwin Malone showed flashes of brilliance. Nobody knew they would get injured. If they are healthy, we are talking about 2 potential all-stars here. --Joe Crede is still a very talented hitter. --Ditto for Borchard though he needs to shorten his swing. If you don't think he is worth anything, try offering him to the Yankees and see what happends. --Olivo is already pretty solid. --Maggs and Lee are home-grown. --Biddle is a premiere closer this season. If he can finally stay healthy, he will be if anything else a very solid major leaguer. --Ginter the jury is till out, but it looks like he will be a ML afterall. --Sox still have Cotts, Diaz, Pacheco, Honel, Wing, Ring, Reed, Shurnstein and a few others who are looking awfully good. --Garland and Wright the jury still out on, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them pull a Kip Wells on us...while playing for another team, naturally. As you can see, the farm system has been fairly successful. The only reason it's "overrated" is because there is no Mark Prior/Kerry Wood/Albert Pujols/A-Rod in it.

Having never seen any of these guys, I can't say for sure...but I measure "excellent draft" not by overall depth and quantity, but by the quality--the superstars it produces. Look for example at Reds' 98 draft: they get Dunn and Kearns in consecutive rounds. These guys are potential if not already All-Stars and comprise the cheap backbone for the ML team for next 3-5 years. Who cares if the remaining 30 picks from that draft did not amount to much? It's not like you can always trade 5 good prospects for a great star, KW certainly can't...No, I'd rather have one Mark Prior or Kerry Wood a year and have 9 bums than to have 10 "smart" picks who may one days become "solid" major leaguers in the Jeff Leifer/Tony Graffanino mold. Since I pretty much don't give a s*** about our ml affiliates and their little baby leagues, all I care about is the White Sox team. Of course there is something to be said about the correlation between "farm depth" and "ML success", don't get me wrong...but still, one doesn't automatically lead to the other. Seeing Borchard suck badly right now, Sox need a Ordonez- or Frank Thomas-like superstar. I'll believe it when I see it, until then I am very sceptical about tool-guy Anderson and Co.

REPOSTED: *Eye-roll*....Let's put it this way: coming into this season if you were to ask ANY self-respecting scout, hitting coach or a manager a following question: "Do you think Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko and Joe Crede are gifted hitters with high ceiling or are they in fact overrated low-talents?" How many do you think would go with the former? I didn't see the game last night so I don't know if Crede's hits were flukes or not, but the (grim, sad) reality remains: Konerko OPS (1999-2002) - 855 Konerko OPS (2003) - 560 Lee OPS (00-02) - 825 Lee OPS (2003) - 765 Maggs OPS (00-02) -940 Maggs OPS (2003) -800 Crede OPS (2002) -825 Crede OPS (2003) -560 If that doesn't fall into "severe underachieving" in your book, then what does? Lee was 23-25 during his "talented days"; Maggs 26-28; Joe 24; and Koney 24-26...........DO YOU THINK THOSE HITTERS TOPPED OUT AT THE TENDER MEDIAN AGE OF 25?

Have they signed Anderson and Sweeney?

No s***. I too hope it's the Konerko/Wunsht/White-for-Johnson-and-Felix Diaz-type prospect deal. But then again, KW was never good with the obvious moves. Nor would Yankees part with Nic Johnson who has that magical thig that can't be taught and is almost nonexistent in young player: eye. With Mondesi and Ventura not firing in their longterm plans and with Jeter and Bernie making huge money, Soriano and Johnson might be the only untouchable commodities even with Giambi around.

That is your opinion , I have mine, Clemens /Wood does nothing for me, has nothing to do with Sox, this was Clemens 3rd try at 300 ...yawn.....and Wood has barely been a .500 pitcher. Then your scope of baseball knowledge is way too narrow. Anytime a guy is going for 300 wins is huge and to be doing so at Wrigley where the Yankees hadn't played since 1938 and against a fellow Texas pitcher, not to mention the young vs. old plotlines makes for great baseball. If you didn't watch, then you have no clue how this game played out. If you don't care, then get the hell off this thread and go back to your narrow view of the game, however sad it is. Because my opinion on game does not agree with yours is no reason to get personal, 2 people can disagree without questioning someone's scope of baseball knowledge. Normally I'd agree...unless one of the parties says something along the line of, I dunno... "Clemens /Wood does nothing for me, has nothing to do with Sox, this was Clemens 3rd try at 300 ...yawn.....and Wood has barely been a .500 pitcher" Rex is right- that tells pretty much all.

I can't stand the fool and think he is definately over the hill at this point- what without the roids and the corks and all...but when you average 140 RBI in a 4-year run (98-01), you must be doing something right with RISP. Without Sammy Cubs lose 100-110 games each year. As far as Grace goes, he's no saint, but I like his outgoing personality and after he disassociated himself with Scrubs, I couldn't help but respect him. Maybe part of it is because he is White, I doubt it, who really knows. One thing is clear: in 1999 every Cub yahoo out there and their mother were CERTAIN Grace had 5 good years left in him, would get to 3000 hits and would make the Hall. Not so sure now, are ya? :)

I'll second the sentiments...Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

The key word being "properly".