ptatc

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 01:14 PM) Understood and I respect that view. Sometimes I wish I could be more like that but I'm not. As I explained to South I happened to grow up perhaps in the only time in franchise history where if they lost (i.e. at the end of the season they actually had a losing record) it was inconceivable. That tends to color how you view things. And given the success the Sox had in that time period that view wasn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. I go back to late May 1961 when the Sox lost a DH to Baltimore and for a day or so dropped into last place for the first time since 1950. They'd finish the year in fourth place with another winning record. This actually happened. Some aldermen in a Chicago city council meeting brought up the fact the Sox were losing, in last place and thought the city should allocate some "disaster funds" for them. (Now I'm sure they were joking) That really reflected the overall attitude of the city though about what was expected from the Sox. The 'motion' by the way was defeated with the alderman from the Cubs ward saying it wasn't fair, that the Cubs were a disaster for decades. LOL (Wonder what would happen if they said something like that today? LOL) Mark I can see that. I think working for so many different pro and amateur sports teams has taken some of the intensity out of my "must win" attitude. For years it was just keep them on the field or get them back ASAP. After awhile it becomes, is the one more win really worth all of this? I understand it it from the athletes and management point of view but from a long term health position it can be very different.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:59 PM) I think the best way to sum up my feelings PTATC is to say I like baseball but I love the White Sox. And when the Sox are doing poorly baseball has very little appeal for me. I don't care to watch other successful teams and wonder why it is the Sox can't do the same thing. Just the way I'm wired. Winning means more to me personally that the sport itself. Not saying you are right or wrong just that we take different approaches to this. Mark That's fine. Everyone has their own point of view. I was just joking about the response to your post. I love the game of baseball. i don't like to see the Sox lose but I can still enjoy a game if they lose unless the play is really awful.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:54 PM) The negative impact of racism in one direction is much more severe than it is the other way. That's the missing part of this conversation, and I don't think there's any evidence out there that can refute that fact. Yes, but for that to come out in the election or debates, there would need to be an admission of racism the other way and the media would go crazy with it.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 09:12 AM) What stage of grief are we on? Are we only on denial still? I am. i may vote for the guy with the boot on his head. But honestly, I'm really going to have to dig into both of the candidates to decide which is the lesser of two evils. This could be the election that I've researched the most ever.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:49 PM) I'm totally the opposite. I put it on in the background and wind up doing something else when I don't care. I want someone to root for. I'm about to move and I'm going to one last Pirates game before I leave...and yes I'm going when the Cubs are in town because I want someone to root for in that game. (in case it's not clear, I will be rooting strongly for the Pirates that day). Yes, but is no fun in watching the game unless the team you are rooting for wins? Again, it's obviously more fun when the team wins but no fun in a game even if they lose? That's sounds more like a fan of winning not a team or the game.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:45 PM) I enjoy baseball when I have no emotional interest. you don't enjoy baseball in general?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:44 PM) Maybe a lobotomy would help. or a bottle in front of me. Sometimes it's the only thing that helps watching these games.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:38 PM) Done and done. I'll let the on field and front office actions speak for themselves. I'm serious about this. You get your wish. Mark Wow, it was a joke. People are far too serious. I fully support everyone to express their own opinions, even if they are wrong.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:40 PM) I might be hitting my limit at about the 10 year point, and just flat out watching less baseball as a consequence. Then again, if I could stop having to move across the country I'd probably be right back where I was last year, watching every game. I guess this is the difference. I still love the game of baseball. Win or lose I still enjoy watching and going to games. The games are more enjoyable when they win but really just love to watch baseball.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:39 PM) I wish you wouldn't let the Pollyannas determine what you say. Ouch....Argghhh....OOFFF

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 12:23 PM) The last 10 years have fully convinced me that saying "I'll trade 1 WS for 10 years of garbage teams" remains completely the right move. This is where I'm still stuck.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 11:52 AM) Be more than happy to, in fact I'd LOVE TO. Let me know when the Sox provide me a real reason to do so OK? Mark I will if you stop posting every single negative thought you can come up with about the team.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 11:29 AM) "I told the Marlins he's going to be in the best shape you've ever seen him in," White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said, according to the Times. "Whoever gets this guy is going to have a heck of a ballplayer with a different mentality. He's a big man and he has to take care of himself. ... He has the power and talent to be one of the best players ever." espn.com Maybe Ozzie is a better judge of players than we thought.... And De La Cruz was the only player there of the other 4 who was close to top rated, because of his 100+ MPH. Dallas Trahen was 8th in their system at the time of the deal, but that's like calling Courtney Hawkins a top prospect if we acquired Mike Trout and he was the 4th highest ranked prospect in the deal, with two others behind him. De La Cruz, maybe, being the equivalent of Frankie Montas. So if we traded Fulmer, Anderson (and they're both ranked behind where Miller/Maybin were by quite a bit), Montas/Spencer Adams, Hawkins and let's say Jacob May OR Trey M. and Tyler Danish OR Guerrero, I don't think anyone would be too upset about that trade at all, if Reinsdorf was actually willing to raise the payroll up into the $150 million range to accommodate Trout's contract escalating. http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2006/11...pects-for-2007/ Willing or able? What's makes you think the team has that kind of money when only 4 or 5 teams in the entire league are spending that?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) I actually meant to say Lester. Ok. the point remains the same.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 09:47 AM) The Cubs would still be very good without the $45M going to Heyward and Lackey. how about Lester? Take away him as well and I don't think they are where they are without those two. Don't get me wrong they have built a really good team and look like they are going to have a good run. But don't fool yourself that it is built solely on drafting good players and "doing it the right way" by not buying players.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 09:39 AM) I don't know the guy, but what you take to get into that shape can destroy your heart. One part of the equation is genetics. You have to "train" your heart and cardiovascular correctly for each individual person. Not everyone can train the same or even have the same goals. edit: wasn't familiar with his bio. I just read it. The steroids may have been a more significant factor than genetics. Probably even more of a factor was the marijuana use especially the Kimbo Slice variety with the high THC count. This will pretty much guarantee a heart attack.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 09:33 AM) Don't sell the Cubbies too short. They had an excellent season last year, one that saw them go deep into the playoffs. They are well on their way to accomplishing something our organization has never achieved in over 100+ years, which is making it to the postseason in consecutive seasons. Playoff appearances in consecutive seasons equates to sustainable success, at least in my book. And the way they've built their team by stockpiling the kind of young, elite talent that they have, they've positioned themselves as well as they possibly could to be successful well beyond this season as well. The games still have to be played, of course, and nothing is ever a given in baseball, but your edits to dilute my original post do not paint an accurate picture of what's transpiring on the north side. A counter point is that while they did draft and acquire the players you mentioned, most teams don't have the money to buy the pitching and other players they needed. Their 25 man roster has the 4th highest payroll in the MLB. So don't kid yourself into thinking they did it on the cheap with young players. The young players on the team just allowed them to really spend more than anyone else could on the others. Theo can just outpsend almost everyone else just like he did in Boston. This is the key to their sustainable success.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 08:48 PM) Yeah, you definitely change your perspective as life goes on...from a 23 or 24 year old who had only been to Canada and Mexico, to having since lived and worked in Colombia, Thailand, the Philippines, South Korea, Indonesia and China (basically the last decade), I would have done that in a heartbeat!!! I wasn't super confident in my Spanish (three years in high school, two semesters in univ) but it would have been an amazing experience, and had a lot higher likelihood of leading to major league work of some kind than laboring in the minors and doing sales/marketing/PR. At any rate, your perspective also changes dramatically when you have a child, too. Things that sound like great adventures for a single person aren't such great ideas for fathers responsible for their families. This is what lead me to leave the pro sports life. It's fun single but not good for family life, especially baseball.

QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 08:18 PM) Really enjoyed this....thanks for posting. Very good. An interesting was the stats professor discussing why WAR is so flawed especially for pitchers. He had an interesting take on it. One I hadn't thought of.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 06:48 PM) SF has 3. Heck, the Marlins won two in 1997 and 2003, but not sure we want to emulate them. At least through 2012, we could have said we had a Top Five winning percentage in all of baseball from let's say 1990 or 1993 through 2010/12 except for the Yankees, Braves and Cardinals. That was the argument used to justify not teardown...that the White Sox at least have been competitive over most of those seasons...but that argument doesn't hold water with fans anymore, certainly not over the last 3 years and after the disappointment of 2011, 2012 and 2015 all fizzling despite high fan hopes. Sorry, I'm in the medical field, can't count. I agree it hasn't been effective lately which is why if the stated discussion is the "last few years..." however, there are far too many people saying KW hasn't produced.... and this discussion was in response to a post comparing KW to the 2 previous GMs. I was just comparing KW's record to the last 2. For all the KW bashing, he is by far the best GM for the sox in the modern era. I find myself really contradicting myself. In the 70's, 80's and 90's, I kept saying "I just want to see 1 world series champ for the White sox: because we never though it would happen with those teams. Now that it happened and they have struggled the last few year I want to change that line of thought.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 05:25 PM) he has a ring; I never said he never was (although I think others were better). I said he isn't now. And it's not because of lack of skills. His methods will work if you have a strong foundation (Dombrowski does what he does; so does Brian Sabean, although Sabean has toned it down a lot under their GM). But those teams have much stronger org. foundations that I believe KW has put insufficient attention into rebuilding. I thought they were making progress in 2013, and they stopped. your implication that he has not been as effective as his predecessors sure made it sound like his methods are wrong and he wasn't an effective GM.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:35 PM) I said this earlier...saying we haven't traded anyone of value is just another way of saying we haven't drafted anyone of value from a positional perspective in this century (cause we certainly haven't developed any who produced for the White Sox either). Only major rookie positoinal contributions made were international free agent signings involving more experienced players (Iguchi, Alexei and Abreu). Chris Young is probably the best position player traded away (along with Trayce) and from a WAR perspective, I presume Chris Young has the highest WAR of any positional player the Sox drafted this century (back in 2001) with a career WAR of 17. I honestly don't know how you go 16 years of drafting and not have any positional successes. Literally flabbergasts me (Trayce and Chris Young would be the two potential exceptions and Chris Young largely had his professional impact over 2 seasons) and other than those two years was really nothing more than a serviceable role player and who knows what Trayce will end up being. There in lies the crux of the situation....if we could actually develop worth a darn, we'd have better position players and a better overall team. We were able to get away with it early on, since we benefited from the successes of Rowand, Crede, Carlos Lee, Maggs of the late 90's (who made there professional impacts in the late 90's and early 2000's). These are the two major points. Drafting and developing. I think it's the developing. Early in the KW tenure they drafted high floor low ceiling guys. It didn't work. They made some changes and started drafting Low floor high ceiling guys. It still hasn't worked. They need to somehow come up with the formula to get these to work together. If someone made this argument to fire the front office I wouldn't disagree.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:26 PM) Or how the stocked farm was managed - and whatever it was, it wasn't restocked well. He inherited a winning MLB team as well. Look, prove me wrong. Load up with proven veterans and actually win. They just keep doing the same things that haven't worked. And they don't do the things that seem to work at the winning organizations. So yes, when they keep doing the same thing and getting the same inadequate results, I'm looking for a change in course. Since 2000, the KW reign only 2 teams have more World Series wins than the White Sox. Boston has 3 and SF 2. There are 7 others that have won 1 like the White sox. So in this timeframe they are better than 20 teams and equal to 7. Now you can say that it is time to move on and change things, which I wouldn't disagree with. However, you can't say that under KW they have done nothing and he wasn't an effective GM.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:19 PM) None, but 2 playoffs in 16 seasons after inheriting a stocked farm and MLB team with at least a league average salary structure are lackluster results. You were the one who compared Williams to the previous ones and implied they did it the right way and he is wrong. The results don't show it.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 03:56 PM) That's what the team under Kenny Williams does. That's not what happened under his 2 predecessors. Yes, they could flip Shields for more than they paid if he pitches better than he has. But, to paraphrase, that's not what they do. Just because you brought it up. How many World Series wins and playoff appearances did the White Sox have under his predecessors?