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QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 29, 2013 -> 10:01 AM) I'd like to get my hands on some hgh for my knees. Unfortunately, it only helps the rehab for muscle injuries. It has been shown to be a detriment to joint surfaces.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 29, 2013 -> 08:55 AM) Only the Olympics have a tougher penalty system, and people aren't paid for that. I'd be OK with like 50, 1 season, lifetime, but as is, baseball's policy is tougher than even football's - you miss 1/4 of the season with increasing penalties after that. In baseball, you miss 1/3 of the season. I think it's plenty fair. Even the Olympics do not have the mandatory baseline testing like MLB is going to start doing. The Olympic level competition is a different animal because you will not get unless you succeed. There is a greater temptation to do it at that level because unless you are one of the top 3 in the world there is very little money. The careers are also much shorter for most sports.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 29, 2013 -> 07:53 AM) http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2013-01-31/ne...-biggest-names/ Open the neat spreadsheet and scroll past the listing of local developers, prominent attorneys, and personal trainers. You'll find a lengthy list of nicknames: Mostro, Al Capone, El Cacique, Samurai, Yukon, Mohamad, Felix Cat, and D.R. Then check out the main column, where their real names flash like an all-star roster of professional athletes with Miami ties: San Francisco Giants outfielder Melky Cabrera, Oakland A's hurler Bartolo Colón, pro tennis player Wayne Odesnik, budding Cuban superstar boxer Yuriorkis Gamboa, and Texas Rangers slugger Nelson Cruz. There's even the New York Yankees' $275 million man himself, Alex Rodriguez, who has sworn he stopped juicing a decade ago. Read further and you'll find more than a dozen other baseball pros, from former University of Miami ace Cesar Carrillo to Padres catcher Yasmani Grandal to Washington Nationals star Gio Gonzalez. Notable coaches are there too, including UM baseball conditioning guru Jimmy Goins. The names are all included in an extraordinary batch of records from Biogenesis, an anti-aging clinic tucked into a two-story office building just a hard line drive's distance from the UM campus. They were given to New Times by an employee who worked at Biogenesis before it closed last month and its owner abruptly disappeared. The records are clear in describing the firm's real business: selling performance-enhancing drugs, from human growth hormone (HGH) to testosterone to anabolic steroids. Interviews with six customers and two former employees corroborate the tale told by the patient files, the payment records, and the handwritten notebooks kept by the clinic's chief, 49-year-old Anthony Bosch. Bosch's history with steroids also adds credence to the paperwork. The son of a prominent Coral Gables physician named Pedro Publio Bosch, he was connected with banned substances when slugger Manny Ramirez was suspended for violating Major League Baseball's drug policy in 2009. At the time, MLB confirmed the Drug Enforcement Administration was probing the father and son for allegedly providing Ramirez with HCG, a compound often used at the tail end of steroid cycles. The Bosches were never charged with a crime. Both Pedro and Anthony Bosch failed to respond to a hand-delivered letter and then, reached on their cell phones, declined to speak with New Times. The nine athletes and one coach named in this article didn't respond to emails and phone calls seeking comment, but when New Times began asking questions last week, players' agents leaked information to the New York Daily News and ESPN to soften the blow. MLB issued this statement responding to questions about the Bosches: "We are always extremely disappointed to learn of potential links between players and the use of performance-enhancing substances and have been active in the issues that have emerged in South Florida... anned substances... have no place in our game." Taken as a whole, New Times' three-month investigation into Biogenesis adds fuel to the raging national debate over the role of steroids and HGH in sports. It follows an embarrassing Hall of Fame election that saw no steroid-era stars enshrined and comes just weeks after cycling star Lance Armstrong described to the Oprah Network his own chemical cheating. Now, as baseball teams head to spring training under a tougher new policy, the Biogenesis records affirm that the war on doping has been as futile as the War on Drugs. "In general, almost every drug these records describe coming from this clinic is well-known in the world of illegal doping," says Dr. Gary Wadler, a past chairman of World Anti-Doping Agency's Prohibited List and Methods Sub-Committee, after listening to a description of the records. The story of how Anthony Bosch built the East Coast version of BALCO — the notorious California lab that provided baseball greats such as Jason Giambi and Barry Bonds with steroids — doesn't just shine a harsh light on America's drug-addled pro sports. It also makes clear that federal crackdowns have done little to police anti-aging clinics, which earn millions annually from average citizens wanting to look younger and from elite athletes seeking an edge. "Anti-aging clinics contend their services are legal because they are treating aging as a disease. Therefore, they'll tell you, testosterone is a medical necessity for aging adults, as is human growth hormone in some cases," says Shaun Assael, author of Steroid Nation, a book about the history of performance-enhancing drugs in competition. "But that's an argument that's already been litigated in sports." Do you think they closed because MLB is now going to test for HGH? I'm sure this is what they were selling to the MLB as they were testing for everything else.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 28, 2013 -> 03:32 PM) I think Mitchell is the one who screams trade bait. He is a player whose value coming out of college was his speed. He tore his achilles and has slowly been making his way back from that, but there's questions as to whether or not he'll ever fully make it. He isn't a real powerful prospect, so you could legitimately be looking at a backup player in the big leagues with an outside shot at starting. When looking at his overall package, I just don't see a lot of value there for the MLB. The thing is, I still really like Mitchell, but there's a reason he's 11th on this list and he's fallen out of the top 10, and it's not just because of his age. Trayce Thompson is a legitimate CF prospect with LTP (for comparisons, we're looking likely MLB comp is Drew Stubbs, best case is Giancarlo Stanton), Courtney Hawkins is a legit CF prospect with an incredible all around game who could make the majors as early as next year. He's likely to end up in RF, but with comparisons to Matt Kemp and Justin Upton, I'd take that. And then you're looking at Keenyn Walker who, while I agree is still very hit or miss, I think compares well to guys like Austin Jackson and Coco Crisp statistically. I just think, given everything you see about him, Mitchell is going to have the hardest time breaking through and making a real impact. I also think that's why you see his name being mentioned like it is for him to be due for a break through. Perhaps he is and he'll be extremely valuable for the Sox, but I just don't see it. He tore his posterior tibialis tendon. Much more difficult surgery and rehab.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 25, 2013 -> 10:52 PM) And I thought we had the best medical staff in the sport. Nobody was able to tell Paulie that he wouldn't be on the shelf for that long? The problem is as people have said is you don't know until you go in, see it and begin to poke around. He had the minor clean up during the season, however I'm sure they didn't want to do too much. There is a structure in the wrist called the triangle fibrocarttilage complex (TFCC). It is responsible for the stability of the radius and ulna. It transfers the forces from one bone to the other. It is a very important and stable structure. You really don't know how bad it's damaged until you start to work with it. It has multiple layers. I'm not sure if this was what was bothering him but it sounds reasonable. The rehab can be 2 weeks to 6 months based on the extent of the injury. I would bet this was the worry.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 25, 2013 -> 06:09 PM) Apparently, or at least a huge portion. I read somewhere where the Yankees wouldn't really mind it were career ending. It would save them over $100 million. His contract runs through 2018. That's not uncommon. It is usually easier to get career ending insurance as opposed to a season ending injury insurance. Thatis why they think that way. For some of the bigger contracts it may be something like 40% of the contract for a partial season (number of games specified), 75% for a season and 95-100% for a career ending injury. The actuaries look at the probability of each one happening and base it on that. Career ending would save them alot.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 25, 2013 -> 12:02 PM) Nope. Meaningless baseball on the radio is brutal. Especially when I'm looking forward to listening to B & B on my commute home, and instead it's a bunch of minor leaguers playing ball. I understand how people watch on TV, but spring training on the radio kills me. Why would you do that? Arrogance, holier than thou attitude, pretense of knowledge? I got to admit I listen on occasion for entertainment value of listening to them make idiots of themselves but usually it's a tough listen.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 25, 2013 -> 05:51 PM) His contract is insured. They really would like him to miss the entire season. Were they able to insure the whole thing? That was one of the problems with some of the long big dollar contracts. Sometimes they could only get a portion insured.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 25, 2013 -> 04:40 PM) Cashman suggests ARod could miss the whole season. The bone impingement can take a while depending on how much bone they need to remove.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 25, 2013 -> 11:19 AM) *sigh* we're talking about two very different things here, and you're purposefully disagreeing with something I haven't even said. I'm saying, if you continue to simply use an elliptical without 1) increasing time 2) increasing speed for a long period of time, it stops becoming effective. you and I see that as obvious, but you'd be amazed how many people don't understand that, and think that getting their 20 minutes on the elliptical is "enough" yes - you may lose some weight initially, but like I said before, you won't get much stronger, faster, more athletic, or perform any better. Ellipticals, etc are purely for achieving a moderate amount of weight loss (slowly i might add) and that's it. They're the lazy person (or morbidly obese person) workout. There is another part of your discussion that you are missing. There is the neural adaptation to activties that will burn more calories. When your body is learning a new activity it is less coordinated at it. Thus is takes more work to do the same activity. As your body adapts and coordinates to it, it becomes more efficient at the activity regardless of speed. So if it's a treadmill workout as you become more efficient at it you will burn less calories doing the same activity because you are more efficient. This is part of the plateau to which you are referring. A good example is running outside vs. a treadmill. On a treadmill the conditions are the same (unless you change the % grade throughout the workout which I highly recommend) vs. outside where there are uneven surfaces, curves and wind.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jan 25, 2013 -> 11:59 AM) seriously, how the F do you rupture your spleen shoveling snow? Only Carl Pavano You need to fall on the left side of your abdomen. Probably on a landscape rock or something. This is really weird.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 06:48 PM) Was the US capable of eradicating the Native Americans? Was the US capable of enslaving a race of people for skin color? The entire problem is that the good of society relies on the few in power to make good decisions for the whole. Most people will blindly believe what they are told by the follower of their choice. Poor, uneducated, the masses are easily manipulated into believing that what they are doing is "right" or "good". They do not even believe what they are doing is wrong. On these boards I get called a contrarian, devils advocate, etc. I dont try to be, but when you objectively look at many things, you see how easy people get swept up in the moment, how easy emotion takes over and a normal group of people can be capable of doing the most cruel and disgusting thing. Nazi's were normal people. Normal people can do terrible things. The normal people of the US allowed govt of the US to drop an atomic bomb on the normal people of Japan. The normal people of Japan were willing to fly to their own death to kill the normal people of America. We all fight for our own, we all create "others". We just always need to remember that we must treat our most hated enemy, better than they would ever treat us. Because otherwise we can always justify our cruelness and terribleness as being "normal." The difference is intent. The US wanted the land they controlled, They didn't want to give it up. They Jews in Germany were not a threat. Hitler and his group just picked on an ethnicity to blame problems on and started killing, for no real reason. By the way I agree that "not normal" people can gain control in government. That is why I prefer more local control

It'd like continue this but I've got to go get ready for an early flight to San Diego sponsored by a Federal Government research grant. I don't think we'll wind up agreeing anyway.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 06:33 PM) Then we disagree on normal. I consider the normal human capable of bullying, capable of being mean, capable of creating cliques, capable of creating hypocritical rules for their own favor. I think the normal human is capable of committing crimes, capable of scams, capable of lying. I think that anyone who claims that they are not capable of that would be abnormal or a liar. Historically speaking, war is the natural state of humans. Peace is a new phenomenon. Less than 500 years ago it would have been extremely acceptable to kill someone for being a different religion, race etc. It would be nice to believe that this relatively peaceful time is "normal" but based on the normal use of that term, it just cant be. War is more normal. This is the classic argument, everything is always unique. You are right, there will never be another time that is exactly 1920's Germany. Never again. So I guess we shouldnt really think about it critically, because its a fact, it will never ever happen again. The problem is, that if you look at it in the broader picture "minority being massacred by majority" and "minority being used as scapegoat for ills of majority" there are innumerable examples of it in history, basically every single country has experienced. So I guess I dont think its very unique. And the people followed. The facts are not in dispute, except for German/Nazi apologists. When the Nazi's were retreating, did the regular German's free the concentration camps? Did they help the Jews? Did they even tell the allies that a bunch of people were being murdered? The answer is no. When the Nazis fled concentration camps, they either killed everyone or they locked them in and left them to die. Lets call a spade a spade. They were complicit. This is not some "every German was forced to kill millions of people by gunpoint" they gladly joined in, because they were all going to become rich and powerful. Thats human nature, greed. If I thought that humans were good, I would agree that there should be no govt. But unfortunately I think like Hobbes that life without govt would cruel and short. I agree with Locke that we have to give up some rights, and I agree with John Stuart Mill that the rights we give up should be based on utility (if I dont harm you, you dont harm me.) I just dont think that guns being legal or illegal has any relevance to the rise of Hitler. If anything, the type of fervent support behind it, is the exact emotion that a Hitler plays upon. Ive read the books, I did the work. This was my focus in college. We are soon coming upon the days when people will start to agree with you, that it was just a few bad people, when almost anyone that actually was in Germany or was in WWII would say the exact opposite. Maybe one day you will get a chance to actually know or meet someone who lived in Nazi Germany and escaped. Unfortunately the ones I knew are dead now, but it wasnt just a few "rich aristocrats". It was the German people. The regular every day Joe, was the backbone of the Nazi party. The Hitler youth, the regular people. True, but by that time. It was just "time to save ourselves because the enemy is coming." When a country is at war people to awful things that is a given. I am not a Nazi or German apologist. The country did awful things with the war and they got what they deserved. My point is exclusive to the way Hitler came to power. (I think that's where this started anyway) and what the "normal" person will do. I have met many of them. That is where I became interested in the topic. I meet more and more every year. The stories they told me about their fear and the deathsquads activities that got me researching the topic. I never said anything about guns stopping Hitler. I just said he and his merry band of executioners weren't normal and you said they were.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 06:33 PM) Then we disagree on normal. I consider the normal human capable of bullying, capable of being mean, capable of creating cliques, capable of creating hypocritical rules for their own favor. I think the normal human is capable of committing crimes, capable of scams, capable of lying. I think that anyone who claims that they are not capable of that would be abnormal or a liar. Historically speaking, war is the natural state of humans. Peace is a new phenomenon. Less than 500 years ago it would have been extremely acceptable to kill someone for being a different religion, race etc. It would be nice to believe that this relatively peaceful time is "normal" but based on the normal use of that term, it just cant be. War is more normal. This is the classic argument, everything is always unique. You are right, there will never be another time that is exactly 1920's Germany. Never again. So I guess we shouldnt really think about it critically, because its a fact, it will never ever happen again. The problem is, that if you look at it in the broader picture "minority being massacred by majority" and "minority being used as scapegoat for ills of majority" there are innumerable examples of it in history, basically every single country has experienced. So I guess I dont think its very unique. And the people followed. The facts are not in dispute, except for German/Nazi apologists. When the Nazi's were retreating, did the regular German's free the concentration camps? Did they help the Jews? Did they even tell the allies that a bunch of people were being murdered? The answer is no. When the Nazis fled concentration camps, they either killed everyone or they locked them in and left them to die. Lets call a spade a spade. They were complicit. This is not some "every German was forced to kill millions of people by gunpoint" they gladly joined in, because they were all going to become rich and powerful. Thats human nature, greed. If I thought that humans were good, I would agree that there should be no govt. But unfortunately I think like Hobbes that life without govt would cruel and short. I agree with Locke that we have to give up some rights, and I agree with John Stuart Mill that the rights we give up should be based on utility (if I dont harm you, you dont harm me.) I just dont think that guns being legal or illegal has any relevance to the rise of Hitler. If anything, the type of fervent support behind it, is the exact emotion that a Hitler plays upon. Ive read the books, I did the work. This was my focus in college. We are soon coming upon the days when people will start to agree with you, that it was just a few bad people, when almost anyone that actually was in Germany or was in WWII would say the exact opposite. Maybe one day you will get a chance to actually know or meet someone who lived in Nazi Germany and escaped. Unfortunately the ones I knew are dead now, but it wasnt just a few "rich aristocrats". It was the German people. The regular every day Joe, was the backbone of the Nazi party. The Hitler youth, the regular people. Normal people are capable of those things. But not murder on a scale that the Nazi's did.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 06:26 PM) I don't think simply anyone can do what Hitler did, but I DO believe that when put into a situation like those grunts were, normal, every day, good people are capable of horrible things. you and I are capable of horrible things - we just don't believe it because we've never been in that circumstance where it's do ______ or you die. More than that, do ______ or we murder your family in front of you THEN you die. what choice did those enlisted german soldiers HAVE if they signed up before the war? Have you seen A Few Good Men? Soldiers follow orders, end of story. Regular soldiers did not commit the genocide. I agree regular soldiers can and will do things that in everyday society they wouldn't do. However, a regular soldiers does not plan for years, make massive plans to move millions of people and murder millions. That is a whole different scale than what you are talking about. The enlisted soldiers were out fighting the battles. They were not planning or executing this the slaughter of millions. Again, I'm sure there were some but they were handpicked not your everyday enlisted soldier.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 06:23 PM) unfortunately even if we were to make limits like that, they - just like the 2nd amendment - would eventually become obsolete. our government and the documents used to rule NEED to be malleable because as circumstance change and as the world changes, the law needs to change with it. we're at a point in history where one such law needs changing. that's the way it works. This is a difference of opinion but I just think that most of it should be at the more local level and not someone in Washington who hasn't even been to the areas making the decision. People who know the situation should have more say. This is all separate from the previous discussion of how "normal" people can do the things that the Nazi's did. If you read the books on the Nazi's and the Occult it gives you even more insight as to why they did many of the things they did. The power structure was run by people who weren't normal and they handpicked the deathsquad members (as I'm sure people like Hussein in Iraqi did) who committed most of the atrocities. Normal people can be racist, bullies, mean and many other things. They cannot stand there a willingly murder millions.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 06:09 PM) i think the government does plenty of shady crap, believe me, but I also don't trust people at a local level. Hell that congressman in Kansas who prayed for the President's death - who prayed that his wife would be widowed and his kids would be fatherless - would have even MORE power. That's not acceptable either. but i also don't think the world is black and white. I think there are some things the government should have their hands in, and some things they shouldn't. guns are certainly one of those things the government should be involved in. When it comes to the welfare of the majority of the people (guns, civil rights, etc), I think the government has a responsibility to do what it can to that end. And yes, you're going to say 'well what constitutes the welfare of the majority of people' and to that I'd say... that's why I vote Democrat. I agree with your comments in theory. But the "where does it stop" that scares me. If we can guarantee what the politician can change and what they can't it would be different. You have to have the belief that they will do the right thing. However, as stated earlier if you think that anyone can commit the atrocities like Germany did, this should really give you pause that they will do the right thing.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 05:31 PM) *slow clap* If you agree with all of this, why are you happy with allowing the government to have more control over anything? If the normal people currently in our government are capable of these atrocities then you should push for government de-regulation so they cannot do this type of thing.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 05:08 PM) I get that people who are part of the majority do not want to believe that it was just a regular guy who would become the one to flip the switch for the gas chambers, but that is the truth. Even Schindler, who was one of the best towards the Jews, only did it for money to start. He was using Jews from forced labor. It was only after he saw his "workers being murdered" that he got upset because he was losing a valuable commodity. Most humans accept speciesism. Whether its okay to kill a fly, a mouse, a chicken, whatever. Most people have a point where they think "its okay to kill that" or "its okay to test on that" or "its okay to work it to death." In Nazi Germany it became acceptable that Jews were less than Human. So normal human rights did not apply. They did not think they were doing anything wrong. If Germany would have won, would all of those poor unfortunate Germans have freed the Jews? Would they have stopped killing Jews? No. They wanted the Jews eradicated. It wasnt just Hitler or a handful of people. Therein lies the key. Forced labor, slavery all of that while horrible does not come near to what Hitler and some of the SS death squad who were mostly deposed aristocracy) did. These were a select few who needed to blame someone for theie problems. Once Hitler came along with his "philosophy" the selceted group jumped on it.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 04:59 PM) Not really. Hitler used the Beer Hall Putsch and his subsequent arrest/media exposure to as a way to become a public figure. I think you are confusing once Hitler was already powerful and the Brown Shirts (Nazi supporters) began to attack the German military. The German military was separate from Hitler to start and under Hindenburg. When the Brown Shirts (SA) got out of control, Hitler had to destroy the SA and Rohm to show that he was not supporting the violence on the street. If you are interested its called "Night of Long Knives" when the SS (Hitlers guard) kills the SA (Rohm and the Brownshirts, the thugs). I disagree. A normal person can do these things. If you look at history, it is more common for people to do things like Hitler to minorities, than for people to treat minorities equally. Normal people thought slaves werent human, normal people thought Jews werent human. They werent killing a human. They were killing a Jew, a Christ killer who killed God and destroyed Germany. The Jews were the reason that Germans were poor. The Jews were the reason why all of the bad things happened. In America we have no problem shooting terrorists with drones. Most normal Americans dont care. Yet you believe normal Germans cared about Jews, who were considered enemies of the state and were worse than terrorists? They were normal people. This is exactly what I am talking about. In 100 years it will be that Hitler acted alone, that not 1 German civilian went along with it. You just proved my point. The people in the military went along with it. They did not stop Hitler. They did not say no even though Hitler took more power then he was given. They were complicit. The German army was separate from Hitler to start, but they had no problem supporting him. That is the point, you just made the point. Regular people were part of the Holocaust. Regular soldiers from all parts of Germany. Your comparison isnt very good. It would be like saying that if Obama dissolved govt and then the military by choice joined in with Obama and then none of the people stood up against Obama and said he was wrong. You can claim its fear, but that isnt the point. The point is, regular people, due to fear, due to want, due to who cares, killed millions of humans. To say anything else is to just further perpetrate the myth that somehow Nazi Germany is "different" and that "wont happen anywhere else. Again I guess I just disagree with the big picture here. Hitler and the people who ran this were not "normal." I used the example of our President to the fact that I believe with the number of people in Congress and the Supreme Court there are enough people that would stop this before it happens. Throughout history there are a few examples of things like Nazi Germany rising. However there are many many more examples of sane people putting a stop to it. If you truly believe that Hitler and his close associates are normal people. You need to do alittle more research or I'm am afraid for society as we progress forward. Again I'm not saying that none of the German agreed with him. He happened to catch a country that was ripe for this type of thing. They were in extreme poverty caused by other countries putting sanctions on them and making them pay for the previous war they had just lost. The entire country blamed the other countries around them for their problems. So with his friends and backing along with his extraordinary oratory skills (I hope I spelled that right) Germany was in a unique position for someone like him to come along.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 04:59 PM) Not really. Hitler used the Beer Hall Putsch and his subsequent arrest/media exposure to as a way to become a public figure. I think you are confusing once Hitler was already powerful and the Brown Shirts (Nazi supporters) began to attack the German military. The German military was separate from Hitler to start and under Hindenburg. When the Brown Shirts (SA) got out of control, Hitler had to destroy the SA and Rohm to show that he was not supporting the violence on the street. If you are interested its called "Night of Long Knives" when the SS (Hitlers guard) kills the SA (Rohm and the Brownshirts, the thugs). I disagree. A normal person can do these things. If you look at history, it is more common for people to do things like Hitler to minorities, than for people to treat minorities equally. Normal people thought slaves werent human, normal people thought Jews werent human. They werent killing a human. They were killing a Jew, a Christ killer who killed God and destroyed Germany. The Jews were the reason that Germans were poor. The Jews were the reason why all of the bad things happened. In America we have no problem shooting terrorists with drones. Most normal Americans dont care. Yet you believe normal Germans cared about Jews, who were considered enemies of the state and were worse than terrorists? They were normal people. This is exactly what I am talking about. In 100 years it will be that Hitler acted alone, that not 1 German civilian went along with it. You just proved my point. The people in the military went along with it. They did not stop Hitler. They did not say no even though Hitler took more power then he was given. They were complicit. The German army was separate from Hitler to start, but they had no problem supporting him. That is the point, you just made the point. Regular people were part of the Holocaust. Regular soldiers from all parts of Germany. Your comparison isnt very good. It would be like saying that if Obama dissolved govt and then the military by choice joined in with Obama and then none of the people stood up against Obama and said he was wrong. You can claim its fear, but that isnt the point. The point is, regular people, due to fear, due to want, due to who cares, killed millions of humans. To say anything else is to just further perpetrate the myth that somehow Nazi Germany is "different" and that "wont happen anywhere else. For this part, I guess we disagree on the definition of normal. This does happen throughout history. What Stalin did to his own people is nothing compared to what Hitler did to the Jews. However, anyone who can do this to people, even the bully in the school who beats on other kids for fun, I do not consider normal.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 04:59 PM) Not really. Hitler used the Beer Hall Putsch and his subsequent arrest/media exposure to as a way to become a public figure. I think you are confusing once Hitler was already powerful and the Brown Shirts (Nazi supporters) began to attack the German military. The German military was separate from Hitler to start and under Hindenburg. When the Brown Shirts (SA) got out of control, Hitler had to destroy the SA and Rohm to show that he was not supporting the violence on the street. If you are interested its called "Night of Long Knives" when the SS (Hitlers guard) kills the SA (Rohm and the Brownshirts, the thugs). I disagree. A normal person can do these things. If you look at history, it is more common for people to do things like Hitler to minorities, than for people to treat minorities equally. Normal people thought slaves werent human, normal people thought Jews werent human. They werent killing a human. They were killing a Jew, a Christ killer who killed God and destroyed Germany. The Jews were the reason that Germans were poor. The Jews were the reason why all of the bad things happened. In America we have no problem shooting terrorists with drones. Most normal Americans dont care. Yet you believe normal Germans cared about Jews, who were considered enemies of the state and were worse than terrorists? They were normal people. This is exactly what I am talking about. In 100 years it will be that Hitler acted alone, that not 1 German civilian went along with it. You just proved my point. The people in the military went along with it. They did not stop Hitler. They did not say no even though Hitler took more power then he was given. They were complicit. The German army was separate from Hitler to start, but they had no problem supporting him. That is the point, you just made the point. Regular people were part of the Holocaust. Regular soldiers from all parts of Germany. Your comparison isnt very good. It would be like saying that if Obama dissolved govt and then the military by choice joined in with Obama and then none of the people stood up against Obama and said he was wrong. You can claim its fear, but that isnt the point. The point is, regular people, due to fear, due to want, due to who cares, killed millions of humans. To say anything else is to just further perpetrate the myth that somehow Nazi Germany is "different" and that "wont happen anywhere else. for the violence I was referring back when he was a starving artist and when people would scoff at his work, he and his friends would bully them and beat them. This progressed to the way he made it through local politics. I've read the Night of yhe Long Knives as well as many other books about him. Have you read Mein Kampf? If you have then you should know about his philosophy the way he made his way in politics.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 04:58 PM) i'm sorry. most of the higher ranking officers probably didn't shoot a single jew. it was the grunts that bore that burden. and yes, they were just regular people following orders. In most cases it has the higher ranking people who did the work. The grunts just rounded them up. At the concentration camps, it was mostly the higher ranking "Nazis" that did. Don't get me wrong there were plenty of people who sided with them and did the dirty work as well. However, I still wouldn't consider these people normal. All societies have these people in the general population, look at the people on the streets who just flat out shoot people.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 19, 2013 -> 12:11 PM) Surgery for Corey Hart, will miss the first month or so of the season. That is a long time for the meniscus. The must be repairing it and not just doing a menisectomy. I see he had an arthoscope on this knee last year as well. He must be running short on the meniscus.