Balta1701

Hawk's said before that he wants to go out while broadcasting a game, so not sure why that would surprise anyone. I do wonder if the one thing that could get him to think about calling it a career is the Frick award.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Aug 19, 2016 -> 09:29 AM) It MIGHT be a winner. We all know he hasn't thrown a pitch yet. It's not a bad trade if he's a lockdown bullpen piece moving forward. Just admit it would be nice to have a dependable guy to help the Sox bot piss all these 1-run games away next year. A draft pick that contributes to the major league club winning games is a good draft pick no matter where he is drafted. And this quickly? Mercy, that's a home run of a pick. I can live with Semien and his stone hands contributing elsewhere. Well, another person who hasn't noticed that Semien has cut his error total in half.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 02:45 PM) He wasn't having problems. I don't see what is wrong with challenging a guy, and keeping his innings, which were going to be limited, in check. He pitched about 9 innings. Big deal. This could have been the plan all along. If he could contribute to the bullpen and they were contending, he probably is still on the team. Now they can send him down, stretch him out and bring him back for a couple of starts, and he and the team will have a better idea of where he stands for next season instead of just hoping. Some have already written him off as a wasted draft pick. He pitched 150 innings last year in college and the minors. He ought to have surpassed that this season, or at least matched it. He's at 98 right now. They are on a nice path to having his innings actually go DOWN from what he threw in 2015.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 02:37 PM) I think he had a string of 3 or so starts in April that were pretty good. And those 6 innings 3 runs games might have been better than they look on paper. That's no where near "having no problems putting guys away". You just didn't check first. There was no reason to call this pitcher up from that performance. At least give him a couple months to make sure his turnaround was legit.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 02:22 PM) The roster has a lot to do with winning and losing. The reality is most managers who are supposedly great have had some really bad years and it wasn't because they were suddenly stupid. If Robin is a big part of the problem, the roster isn't nearly as bad as many want to make it. Would that be fair? Given the choice, I'll let Ventura stay and remove Hahn and Williams. However, I think the wisest, most obvious course is to clean house completely. After all, you can't be sure which part is the failed part, they may all have, so just replace the whole thing and you've got a shot at fixing it.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) It was longer than that. Besides, he had an innings limit so moving him to the bullpen on the major league roster made some sense. Now they will stretch him out a couple of AAA starts and maybe he gets a start or 2 in September. No it was not. I actually checked. In order. Callup 5 innings, 2 runs, 103 pitches (lot of pitches for 5 innings) 7 innings, 0 runs, 3 hits, 4 walks (solid start) 7 innings, 0 runs, 2 hits, 2 walks (his best start of the year) Those 3 starts followed: 4.1 innings, 6 runs 6.2 innings, 3 runs 6 innings, 3 runs 4 innings, 3 runs, 7 walks 2.1 innings, 9 runs. Prior to those 3 strong starts his ERA was 5.82, and it had basically been over 5 all year. Literally 3 starts of success.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 12:20 PM) With a guy like Burdi, if he is just blowing away AAA hitters, how is he going to get better? I understand the rushing guys crowd, but Fulmer was having no problems with AA guys at the time he was recalled. Burdi doesn't seem to be having problems with anyone now either. Chances are they will struggle here, but they and the team get a better idea of where they are at, and what needs to be improved. It obviously isn't a strategy for everybody, but if you are a better prospect and not really being challenged at your level, you aren't going to get better. For literally 3 starts.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:47 AM) Minor league season is over the first week of September. If the Sox plan on him being in the Majors next year, which I'm guessing they do, him coming up for a month or so this year does absolutely nothing to effect his future arbitration and free agent status. Could actually depend on the CBA negotiations right? As of right now if they kept him down for a little while next year that buys them another year before he's a free agent.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:27 AM) you just started off by saying "Go back 5 years". This is within that period. They need to develop more, no doubt, but it was within your criteria and you are wiping it aside because "cleveland would still be better", instead of your initial point of "they are developing pitchers anymore" So in 1.5 months it'll be 5 full seasons since those guys arrived. If you want to be picky about 1 month, they were both called up in late 2011. Like you said, they need to develop more. Their pitching development should not be treated as above reproach. Despite throwing lots of resources at pitching acquisitions, their big league staff is held together by Quintana and Sale's extensions. This is part of the problem.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:04 AM) He's hoping.You're the one saying their developmental reputation needs to be questioned in part because guys drafted in 2014 and 2015 aren't dominating major league hitters. BTW, Rodon has been looking pretty good since his DL stint. So you're saying that insisting guys who were drafted in 2014 and 2015 are ready to contribute to the middle part of a strong major league rotation is a decision that should be questioned?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:55 AM) But you are asking for guys like Rodon and Fulmer to be really effective right away. Who from those drafts have done that to this point? Rodon actually leads his draft in WAR. No, I'm not. Rick Hahn is. I would have no problem with Rodon having been in AAA last year and Fulmer being in AA this year. The White Sox are the ones insisting these guys are mid rotation and back of the bullpen contributors on a contending team right now.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:47 AM) They developed Montas enough he went from a throw in to a part of a trade for an All Star 3B. They developed another throw in enough to acquire Lawrie. Nate Jones looks pretty good. It probably hasn't been as good as they want to make it, but it isn't as bad as you are suggesting. I always thought their starting pitching development was a bit overrated, but for years, they have had relievers all over baseball. My point in short form - their development is not "so good you should never question their decisions". We have heard that in this thread with Burdi, we heard that with Fulmer being put in the bullpen, we heard that with Rodon being called up, we heard that with Shields being acquired. They are not terrible at it. Their pitching development is not a wasteland. Next year it could look great again. But from 2014-2016 it is not doing what this franchise requires it to do, and as a consequence pitching remains a need at the big league level.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:36 AM) They established a guy like Rienzo enough to get Jennings. They established Santiago enough to get Eaton. Addsion Reed was developed decently, and traded, and most here were pretty happy with the return. I think you are selling them short a bit here. They haven't been a pitching developmental factory, but they have probably been above average. Compared to their position player developmental prowess, it looks huge. Look how far back you had to go though. Santiago arrived in 2012. Reed arrived in 2012. If those guys were still here they'd have 1 year before free agency. If they were still here, Cleveland would still have a better rotation than us. And when they traded those guys away, they had nothing in the pipeline that was able to replace them, so they went out and spent money on the Robertsons, Latoses, and Shieldses. That is a problem. The pitching development isn't terrible, as you point out it's better than position player development, but it's not so incredible that everyone should stop questioning what they're doing with these guys. 5 years ago you could make that case, but 5 years in MLB is a long time.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:16 AM) Anyone think the Braves can be decent next year depending on what they do this offseason? If Swanson can be a steady bat and they have a healthy Inciarte and add a bat (at third?), I think they could be watchable at the very least. Maybe trade some prospect depth for an arm or two for the rotation if they really wanted to since they loaded up on a bunch of prospect arms. Swanson only had a .745 OPS at AA, so he still has work to do. They may not be this bad next year - they might be about where the Phillies are this year? But next year seems early to be trading away the talent.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:24 AM) Then you have no problem with the team trading prospects who obviously will never be any good, for established players. That fits into the "no one in the pipeline right now" part. There's no depth in the organization either because of those trades. They haven't developed back of the rotation guys or middle relief that well either. Putnam and Petricka fit into that category so it isn't zero, but the lack of depth is another part of this season.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 02:14 AM) Extremely drunk man at the hotel bar informed me that Hillary should be shot. That was uncomfortable. Sorry, I don't get along well with tequila.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 05:12 PM) You can b**** about the Sox in almost any facet of the organization but when it comes to Burdi, this draft class and their track record on pitching, back off. The early returns and the track record are there. Let things fail before you come at the Sox with pitchforks. It's time to start going after the bolded, because I think there's now a strong case that this organization is resting on reputation alone in terms of developing pitchers. Go back 5 years, and they developed 2 very good starting pitchers. They deserve all the credit for that in the world, those 2 guys are strong, but they're literally carrying this staff. They haven't developed a successful, mid to top of the rotation starter in 5 years. Had it not been for the contract Chris Sale signed he would be a free agent at the end of this year. They have a solid rotation because of one of a handful of positive things Rick Hahn did for this franchise - locking those 2 starters up early. Overall though the picture at the big league level is bleak. The Sox have a slightly better team ERA than Detroit, but Detroit has a slightly higher team fWAR from their staff. Cleveland has a significantly better team ERA than the White Sox. The White Sox's supposed plan was to develop enough pitching to have that carry them, right? Well 3rd best staff in the division doesn't get you there. And that's not without throwing substantial resources at the staff. They signed a big money closer. They took on payroll in adding a pitcher this year. And they have invested 2 top-10 picks in their rotation the last 3 years. Look deeper and you'll get even more concerned. They clearly had no idea where Rodon or Fulmer were going to be this year and overestimated how ready both of them were. They could still turn things around, both are young, but so far these guys are mediocre starters with good fastballs that the White Sox haven't developed as fast as they insisted they could. They made decisions this year expecting both would be strong contributors and they were clearly wrong. Someone in this organization that is supposed to know pitching told Rick Hahn that James Shields was fixable or had something left. They spent big money on Robertson and he's underwhelmed. They also have little to no depth in their starters. Take a look at the guy going last night. There isn't much in the pipeline right now that can step in when someone goes on the DL or someone struggles, other than a replacement-level/waiver wire acquisition. There is no one about ready to break in from AAA. What else have they developed over the past 5 years? Maybe you give them credit for guys they traded away, Santiago Bassitt and Montas, but those guys have had a lot of work done by other organizations too. If pitching is supposed to be the thing they're trading away to build up the rest of their roster, they have a pretty weak roster and they still have pitching needs. This could turn around next year. There's talent in Rodon and Fulmer, James Shields could find his previous self, and Hansen could darn well be the next Scherzer. The investment they've put into finding pitching could pay off. But as of right now, this is a team that hasn't developed a mid-rotation starter or back of the bullpen pitcher in 5 years. This is a team where we're not supposed to question their pitching development, but they have major needs of starting pitching and relief pitching. They're separated from having the worst rotation in their division not by what they've developed, but by contracts that guys signed. They're resting on reputation right now.

QUOTE (Coach @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:25 AM) The Sox woes this year are not entirely Robin's fault. They have had their fair share of injuries. However, as I have said, more than a few on the team seem to not play with 100% effort. And let us not forget the lack of fundamentals from bad base running to throwing to the wrong base. I have also seen players jogging to 1st base on routine grounders. Sure, this is the big league and will be normally out, but hustle puts pressure on the other team to make the play. All it takes is hustle to try and beat the throw. If the player is safe, that is a potential run. If a player does not hustle, he shows he does not care. That to me is unacceptable at any level. This part is on Robin and management for not promoting effort is everything. Bottom line, winning baseball starts with a winning attitude. Injuries are a poor excuse. They've just under an average number of injuries, way more than last year, but they're no where near as banged up as teams like Texas and Los Angeles have been. They seem like they're unusually banged up because for the last couple years they've been unbelievably healthy and so a return to "below average" number of injuries from "record low" seems like a major jump. If at the start of the year you picked 7 or 8 guys that this team couldn't afford to have go on the DL (Abreu, Eaton, Sale, Frazier, Quintana, Robertson, Lawrie, Cabrera, Rodon, Jones) none of them have had DL stints.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 03:39 PM) Wasn't this heralded as a good pick because it was paired with Strasburg? Burdi isn't a vacuum, he's sandwiched between Collins and Hansen. The Nats paid Storen $12 million while with them and he put up 4.7 fWAR. Overall, that's below average performance out of the 10th pick, but most of the guys taken right after him didn't do all that much, at least not yet. A little later in the draft guys like Shelby Miller, AJ Pollock show up who have been better players, and the less said about skipping that Trout dude the better.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 03:04 PM) They know he doesn't have the command to be a starter yet. He throws 102. That's pretty good. Was it wrong the Reds didn't try to make Chapman a starter? One problem with guys that have this gift of triple digit gas out of the bullpen, you make them a starter, and suddenly it's 94 or 95. If it doesn't work out, many times it doesn't come back. If this guy is Nate Jones or Bobby Jenks, or someone of that ilk, it was a good pick. If he becomes an elite closer, we will be very happy the Sox decided to spend the 26th pick on a reliever. I am of the belief they are not going to stretch him out. I guess a good question for the people opposed is if your scouts think this guy's ceiling is an elite closer and he has 102 MPH gas, what is the highest position he should be drafted? Is the second round OK? The White Sox just need as many guys possible to be successful. What round they ultimately were drafted in makes no difference after the signing bonuses are paid. The last guy I remember a big deal being made about him being a highly drafted reliever was Huston Street, who was a reliever in college and took over that slot for the As pretty quick. He was the 40th overall pick. Street has been clearly worth that draft slot, and in fact was worth that draft slot to the As alone as he put up 5.8 rWAR with them before being traded away, which is more value than you typically get from that slot. But on the other side of it, outside the 2005 season he's bounced between being worth 0.8 rWAR and 1.5 rWAR per year, give or take. That's normal, solid, average closer type performance. So let's say you had a guy with a 100% chance of being a solid, average closer. The normal return on the 10th pick in the draft is ~6 WAR. A guy with a 100% chance of being a good closer would therefore be an average draft pick at #10 - half the guys drafted in that slot should be better than him. The #30 pick is worth ~4 WAR. So if Burdi were to be a solid, better than Robertson closer for 5 years, he would be one of the best picks in that range. However, if he needed a couple years to adapt to the bigs or you did something stupid like blowing a year of his control with 1 month left in the season (AHEM), he's not far from becoming a below average pick for that slot. He would need to be a strong, average closer for ~3 years to be worth his slot. Furthermore, once he hits arbitration you start paying him more close to fair for that performance - you could match that performance by spending the money on the FA market. So basically, you need the guy to have something like a 50% chance of being a solid reliever to be worth it in the range he was drafted in, or you wait until after about pick 50 where every slot starts being worth ~2WAR and everything turns into a true crapshoot.

So here's my attempt at logic on that draft pick. Take as a given that most picks in the late 20s will not amount to much and the value of those picks on average is ~2 WAR. Most picks in that range are guys who never make the big leagues, and there's what, 1 out of 10 who become a really good player, fair? If you view the guy as a reliever only, which is the only fair interpretation of the guy being rushed up to the big leagues as a reliever and starting his service time this year, then that player has a reduced ceiling compared to a guy who could be a starter. However, if you're evaluating the quality of the pick, both the ceiling and the probability of success matter as well. So yes, his ceiling may be lower, but if you think he has a 20% chance of being a successful reliever, then compared to guys around him with a 10% chance then that's the right pick despite the lower ceiling. But there's one problem with drafting a guy as a reliever and keeping him there. If you draft a guy as a starter and keep him there for several years...if he flops as a starter he could still become a valuable player if you move him to the bullpen. If the White Sox are intending to keep Burdi as a reliever the next 2-3 seasons and he winds up being Daniel Webb, they're not going to be able to convert him into a starter while he's still in this organization because it will take more years than he has options to stretch him out. In other words...you draft a reliever highly, you better be darn sure you're right on him. You better be willing to bet your job on it.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 01:59 AM) You said you owe it to the fans to play your best players. But the fans will benefit the following season. This season means nothing. It's over. Sit Sale the final six weeks and he'll be so ready next spring. Same with Q. Why pitch him? The fans don't want to see him get no run support. It'd be better to just rest him. Meanwhile, other guys get to pitch, and lose, and again, it helps get a better draft pick which the draftniks want even though many of our picks have been busts. Frankly it'd be smart to rest these players for the reason I suggested: Sale, Q, Robertson, Rodon, Shields, Abreu, Eaton. Send Avi to the minors to work on his game and ditto Anderson to learn how to take more pitches. I don't think the fans would care at all. This season is beyond fans caring. Anybody coming out to the Cell will be coming out no matter who is playing for the Sox. Everybody benefits. The draft people will be happy and the ones who think we can contend next year will be happy we are resting Sale and Q. Well, with Sale and Quintana, I think the point from last year still stands - pitchers need to work. We've said this 2 years in a row now - what would Sale's status be if we'd shut him down at 150 innings last year and then now were thinking of doing that again this year? Even if you just do it one year...you've left the guy in a position where when he is traded and finally is on a competitive team, he'll be in uncharted territory when going past 200 innings. With Sale seemingly becoming a first half pitcher who becomes inconsistent later in the season, working him out seems to have some benefit. Secondly, the union wouldn't allow that. Guys get money based on counting stats - hits, HR, RBI. If you tried to shut down multiple players with no injury reason, you are costing those guys money and you'll face a union grievance. You might be able to get away with it for one guy, but a systematic move is going to get you into trouble. Third...baseball's calendar doesn't help you here. If you wanted to send ANderson and Avi down...the minor league season ends in what, 2 weeks? Guys get called up because the minor league seasons are over and the teams want them to get more work. So, if you want Avi and Anderson to keep getting at bats, the only place for that to hpapen is in the big leagues. Finally, MLB doesn't have the "inactives" part of the roster like the NBA or NFL do - if you tried to shut guys down, you'd still have them in the dugout every day, on your roster, and you can't easily replace them. Once rosters expand you'd have enough players to make that work, but you coudln't make that move until September 1.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 11:44 PM) Why don't the Sox start THEIR own network. Seriously. The same reason why no one complained when Harry Doyle said G*dD*mn on the air.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 09:17 AM) It has for a while. KW is Krause. The guy that won that now has no clue. Hahn is Paxson, the guy everyone can't wait to really take over, until he actually takes over. Ventura = Tim Floyd (possibly now also Fred Hoiberg), the guy with little managerial experience who the management decided they love?

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:52 PM) Well respected around the league, and not really given a chance to put his stamp on the team. There are now 2 reports in 2 of the last 3 years where Hahn wanted to rebuild only to be shot down by JR and KW. The trades where Hahn has "sold" on, they were pretty damn good trades. Peavy netted Montas (who got Frazier), Wendelken (who got Lawrie), Avi, and Rondon. Santiago got Eaton. Jennings for Rienzo. Almonte for Beckham (then traded for Kahnle, still hate that trade). Duke for Tilson. Overall not bad when we sold high on players Reed for Davidson?