Jack Parkman

This is what I said. I know Cabrera sucked but that's kind of how I see Cease until he proves it some more. I never said that I thought that he completely sucks.

When did I ever say he wasn't? I wanted to have a discussion about his trade value because an actual Sox fan with a platform thought he had less than I did. I was like, holy fuck I thought I was the low man on Cease?

I agree, you don't give up on arms like that as a general rule. You have to be getting something really good in return.

It's really hard to peg. Each team's MLB scouting dept. will view him differently. I'm glad we're actually having a discussion now, which is what I intended to do in the first place.

I get it. The fact that he throws 98 with wicked breaking stuff is the reason he had any value at all back in March.

I'm hung up on the fact that this is baseball and sabermetrics work better in this sport than in all of the other ones. The numbers said he was terrible until this year, and then we had the sticky stuff ban. There's not enough data on him without grip enhancement to dismiss either the positive set from the first half or the negative set from 2019-20. I don't necessarily agree that all teams are going to ask about Cease. I think more traditional scouting teams would, and more analytical scouting teams would have him further down the list. I'd imagine teams value players in trade like they do on fangraphs.

I'm aware, That's why I've moved from a Cease pessimist to neutral. How much is sticky stuff? That is the question. It will be answered over the 2nd half and playoffs.

If you're arguing that the combination of his stuff and consistent outperformance of his peripherals indicate that he may be figuring it out, then sure, I get it. That's the optimist's point of view. I'm more neutral on Cease at the moment so I get both points of view. Cease's trade value really depends on the pro scouting team, and how they view him.

At some point after making their MLB debut, a player ceases (pun intended) to be a prospect and become more of a known commodity. Pitching can be voodoo, as guys can make mechanical adjustments and turn it around like Giolito did, but human nature is that a player is what his fangraphs page says he is.

Because I really don't think he's valued as more than a 26 year old failed prospect with 4 years of team control at this point. If he continues what he was doing this spring through the summer and fall, then yeah, he'll start to build value. Bernstein is a Sox fan. I know he works on the Cubs flagship, but he watches the Sox and talks about his Sox fan group chat among his friends on the air all of the time.

And that's the right move, because if you trade a guy before he figures it out with stuff like that you will regret it. BTW, just because I said it was a valid thought, doesn't mean I agree with it. I just understand where they're coming from. I think the same thing about Crochet. Let him become what he's going to become, because those arms don't grow on trees.

No it doesn't. This was never about Joc Pederson being worth Cease. This discussion was about Cease being not as valuable as Sox fans would like to think.

That's fine. I was listening to the score when they said that, and the first thing that popped into my mind wasn't "this is ridiculous" it was "they really think Cease's success this year was a product of sticky stuff. They think he sucks" Though this is still ridiculous popped into my mind after that.

Maybe you should quit being a prick just because we disagree about the Hawks and Dylan Cease. People made valid arguments against. I presented my case, others presented theirs. The jury is still out. We'll see who was right. I never thought that Lopez was good, however. I was starting to come around on Cease. Now I still have to wait and see. I clarified because people thought that I actually think that Cease sucks. It was more of "I see where he's coming from"

My point is that Cease and Lopez had similar peripherals up until this year, and we don't know how to view Cease's 1st half because of substances. Thinking that Cease sucks is not a ridiculous thought. I'm not sold, I have to see more.

No, I'm saying that anything other than wait and see is not prudent.

I don't disagree, I'm arguing that thinking that Cease might suck is valid. I hate to say I told you guys so about Lopez, but I remember having the same arguments about him. "BUT HIS STUFF!!!" you guys said. I don't even necessarily think he sucks. It's more of a wait and see. But I don't blame anyone for looking at the peripherals and dismissing March-June 2021 as substance aided.

Felipe Paulino supposedly had a great arm. Hitters saw him well and lit him up.

Pederson sucks too, I think it's ridiculous just because of the control but I don't think Cease anywhere close to as much value as you guys do.

Sticky Stuff. That is all.

We'll see.

What if you think that was substance related and the guy from 2019-20 is the real Cease? I think Cease has more trade value than Pederson, but not by much.

Cease had a FIP over 6.00 and an xFIP over 5.00 last year. He sucks. His k rate as gone down significantly over his last few starts. He's displaying all of the things that made him an issue in 2019-20.

Cease's value is defined by his shitty peripherals from 2019-20 and the fact that his early season improvements might have been a result of using substances. I feel like we're having the Reynaldo Lopez argument from 2018-19 all over again.

No, Cease's peripherals sucked in 2019 and 20, his spin rates jumped this year when he was doing well, and then as soon as the sticky ban went into place his command went from passable to absolute shit.