2nd_city_saint787

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 12:18 AM) and excuses and just not being good enough.... when they do win it all it's because they were superior. Chicago is still the city of chokers. The Northside counterparts have the biggest play in it. Man kite you went from my favorite poster (because you said i was your favorite poster) to being one of my least favorite in a span of 2 days lol. Just like the Bears were not gonna get things done without Cutler/Forte Just like the Bulls were not gonna get things done without Rose/Noah The Sox were not gonna get it done with a shell of Dunn/Konerko I understand its different, the others were actually out out but the Dunn/PK they had were basically replacement level players compared to what we're used to...much like the other scenarios.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 11:58 PM) I respect your opinion here but I don't buy it as ultimate fact. With a more typical hitter I would agree with you, but with Dunn, his lack of protection merely amplified his suck-factor rather than causing it. Plenty of teams with just 1 guy with no protection getting it done. .200 is dogs*** man, it's dogs***. It means he knocks in de aza 1 out of 5 times, bottom line. Do you really want him in the 3 hole next year? The bold part is kinda what I'm saying. That and the oblique problem amplified it as well. He's around a .220 hitter to begin with so when you amplify that with 2 issues he's going to be even worse than that. I'd rather have him in the 4 hole personally, with Rios in the 3rd...potentially more guys on for him to drive in and thats one thing he does do, drive in runs...only 20 more players in the MLB with more

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 11:39 PM) I agree with your Crain statements. Guy has some big-time stones IMO as he pitched out of many important innings. Thornton sucks. I don't buy the protection theory really. Didn't Dunn look overmatched in pretty much every AB against a quality pitcher? I feel like he lucked into most of his hits. Of course this is just my eye test which means s*** really. But it's what I saw dadgummit. They were throwing him a lot less fastballs and gave him less pitches to hit. When you have someone with no pop behind him they can afford to do that, it also shows up in his walk totals in the 2nd half. You couple that with his oblique problems and its no wonder he hasn't been as good as the all star 1st half he had.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 11:27 PM) Would you agree Dunn deserves a B? Or would you go with an A? I just don't like Crain much. I really dislike Myers, though. I guess I could stomach Crain another year, but not Myers. And I still say Nate has to revamp his pitching rotation. What's with the Keith Foulke motion??? As I said, yes up until the part I bolded I agree with your post, a B sounds right. Youre all over the place with the rest of this post lol. Crain has been one of the more consistent RP in the game. He only gave up more than 1 run twice last season...throw those 2 games out and he has a 1.55 ERA in 46.2 IP. How can you not like that?? As for Jones, why does it even matter if he has a Keith Foulke motion if he's having success?? That doesn't make any sense to me. Myers is kind meh to me, nothing special but he's still a pretty decent RP.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 11:20 PM) I can't believe so many people on this board are OK with ... a.) the Sox collapse. b.) the Sox becoming totally irrelevant in Chicago and around the country. You guys got your wish. Big bad Ozzie is gone. And with him is any interest in our team outside of our 15,000 diehard fans which includes all of us on this board. That's it. We're like the Blackhawks, a very very very limited fanbase. And nationally we are now totally irrelevant without Ozzie making headlines. Robin is fine. He says nothing of interest. At first I thought he might revolutionize managing, I thought he might be that special. It seemed like he really had a feel for the game. But as it turned out, his team "quit" on him every bit as much as they "quit" on Ozzie. But you are all happy because at least Robin didn't "quit" like Ozzie allegedly did which is the biggest misnomer in this board's history. Because as Chicago sports fans we're used to collapses due to injury....Maybe because you're out in KC and didnt already experience the collapse of the Bears the last 2 years due to injuries or the Bulls last year because of the Rose/Noah injuries. Welcome to Chicago sports

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 10:50 PM) I'm not a Dunn fan, but to be fair, he hit some very important homers this year. Without him, the Sox wouldn't have been in the "race" at all. I'd prefer him on another team, but he hit some major home runs and a few of them were with men on base. Despite that horrendous batting average, I'd give him a very very solid B for his performance this season. I am thinking except for that two homer game he reeked in September, but I don't have the numbers in front of me. p.s. I really hope Thornton and Crain have pitched their last games for the Sox. Bring in a new crew of relievers please. I agree with the first part of your post...But to continue the injury thing that I've been beating all to hell these past few days...1. He's got an oblique injury, you cant get the same body torque if thats bothering you. and 2. PKs collapse due to the injury gave Dunn virtually no protection. When you have a healthy PK hitting behind you you're gonna get a lot more pitches to hit. I can understand the Thornton hate, though I think its overblown but why the Crain hate??? A 2.44 ERA with a 1.08 WHIP isn't good enough for you?

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 07:44 PM) It's the Ks that bother me. A career high. He still hasn't figured out AL pitching while Pujols and Fielder did. AL pitchers have figured him out. If he is in the AL next year, I bet he doesn't walk as much. You can't have his low average in the AL with a supporting cast like the Sox. Everyone knew when we got him that he was gonna K a ton, I dont see what the problem is when you drive in close to 100 runs, ranking 20th in the majors in that category.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 07:26 PM) Hopefully they can find another GM who will be impressed with Dunn's HR and RBIs and ignore his low BA and high K rate. I got a good laugh last night when someone on WSI thought the Yankees would be interested. They probably would if they have another Wilson Betimit to give away. lol people forget Dunn was an all star this year....voted by his peers...ya his peers are idiots and know nothing about baseball right

QUOTE (daggins @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 07:37 PM) The reason most people don't want to see that is because "rebuilding" doesn't usually work. How many teams have been stuck in perpetual rebuild mode? Also, watching terrible baseball is boring, and the Sox have no financial wiggle room already. They have to live and die by the margins and that is what fielding a maybe-competitive team helps them do. People already wanna cast off/dont trust Quintana, Santiago, Tank and Reed lol if the Sox go into a total rebuild mode I can't imagine how terrible this board will be.

Wilbon?

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 06:22 PM) I would do everything in my power to trade Adam Dunn. Too bad we'd have to pay the whole salary AND include Thompson and probably Sanchez. Maybe the weak-hitting Rays could somehow be fooled into thinking Dunn would help them. They seem like a smart team though...Baltimore? I can't believe I probably have to watch that selfish pull-hitter sit in our 3hole for the next 2 years. No higher than 5th next year or I might not be able to watch games. The man nearly has 100 RBIs and is 3rd in HR, most any team would like to have him....We knew all along that he was gonna K a lot and wasn't gonna have a high BA yet most here loved the signing when it happened. How do you plan on replacing close to 100 RBIs?? There are only 15 guys in the MLB with more.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 05:27 PM) Yeah, but the Sox got shut down numerous times by a plethora of no names/lousy pitchers as well. Scherzer verlander-2 run loss Diamond Mendoza- 2 run loss Guthrie- 1 run loss Fister- 2 run loss Scherzer-2 run loss Chen Guthrie- 1 run loss E Santana Haren- 2 run loss CY Weaver Kluber- 1 run loss Masterson- 2 run loss Shields- 1 run loss Moore Price Thats the SPs they lost to the final month of the season....Not exactly a bunch of nobodies that shut us down.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 06:03 PM) Apparently not if you looked at the attendance this year. Could you imagine what it would have looked like without those 2 in the lineup for an extended amount of time.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 04:32 PM) Well enough to put up #7 and #8 hitter type numbers in the 2nd half. Hooray! Thank goodness they're such gamers. They were nagging injuries, nothing that could have got any worse. The team would have been no better with Dan Johnson at first and what Dewayne Wise at DH? At least having Dunn and PK in the lineup will bring out some fans.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 04:17 PM) You always seem to have an excuse. What's the benefit of playing two injured players, coincidentally two of the highest paid players on your team. To injure them more? It's not like they were contributing much in the 2nd half. Maybe they were trying to improve Paulie's shoulder shrug technique after a weak pop up to 2B? They were well enough to go out there so they did, theyre both gamers. PKs having surgery tomorrow so its clear he was dealing with something, so thats not an excuse.

Hey wait a second, wheres sunofgold we won yesterday! lol jk who cares

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 04:12 PM) Then shame on management for trotting out injured players who directly attributed to losses with their poor play. If we go a long period of time without Dunn and Konerko then the "collapse" would just have started sooner rather than later

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 04:02 PM) Wasn't Miguel Cabrera banged up this year? He still managed to put up triple crown winning numbers and carry the team on his back. He had a sore left ankle, which doesn't effect a RH hitter, at all. A wrist and an oblique problem directly effect a batters swing.

Since switching his stance up he's been a .260 hitter with some pretty good pop (4 HR the last month). I'll take that from a gold glove caliber 2B any day of the week.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 03:52 PM) A lot of these plans bring back virtually the same team. I don't think that's a good idea. Well said team was on pace to win 90+ so why not...if it aint broke dont fix it. Unless of course we're talking wrists and obliques here

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 03:20 PM) I'm surprised the Sox weren't more loose since everybody thought they were going to suck this season. Give me a break, everybody. The Sox had a lot of veterans and it was obvious early on it was one of those years where the team was a contender. Just the bouncing back of Rios and Dunn erased all those negative predictions. It was obvious the team would be better cause of those two alone. Once they proved EARLY ON that they were not black holes those predictions didn't mean squat. Since we now have a very likeable manager and don't want to blame him, and we have a guru as pitching coach and don't want to blame him and we have a GM who remains godlike we don't want to blame him ... we accept it. Well all these guys need to examine what happened again this season and FIX IT in the future. Cause the Sox turned into dogcrap for whatever reason. The team flat out choked at the plate the last few weeks proven again last night. WHen it didn't matter the team bashed Cleveland. If that game had been played a week ago, we lose to Cleveland as we did at home. The team has some huge mental problems. But as expected, everybody is giving them a nice participation trophy and pat on the back for a job well done despite injuries and all those excuses. The last 2-3 weeks were an utter embarassment to Sox fans and very painful IMO. Injuries to key guys will do that

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 03:05 PM) Last night truly proved supported the position of those who say the Sox choked or folded under pressure. The game didn't matter so they hit the s*** out of the ball with runners in scoring position. The troublesome thing is Robin had fixed this the first half. However now we're back to jinxed Sox baseball. He's coming back so I would expect the choking will continue again next year when it matters. Enjoy the next two games, however, they are meaningless so Sox prolly will excel. Look who we faced and put up those runs against, a guy with a 5 something ERA that we saw for the 2nd time and a couple garbage relievers. Before that we faced TB who has a team ERA less than 3 in the 2nd half. Kluber who we saw for the first time( I believe), and Masterson, their best pitcher. Before that we faced E. Santana, D Haren, and Cy Weaver all of which have been good in the 2nd half. Then Chen and Guthrie who forever reason own us. We faced some good pitching down the stretch and with a team dealing with injuries like the sox were it not a recipe for success.

This is all a long shot/BS randomly thrown together as everything will be. Though I'm not convinced having 4 LHers in the rotation is a bad thing I'd look for a RHer to balance it out. The Diamondbacks have 4 RHers Trevor Cahill, Ian Kennedy, Josh Collmenter, and some guy named Daniel Hudson, I think one of them could be had at the right price. They already have Miley, and need spots for Skaggs and or Bauer. If Carlos Sanchez is ready I'd dangle Lexi+ out out there for preferably Cahill or Hudson. Pick up Floyds option, trade Q and go with a rotation of Sale-Cahill/Hudson-Danks-Floyd-Santiago. Trade Tank/Q/Jones/Thornton/prospects for David Wright. Tank, Q, Jones, and Matty would all play big roles on that team for now and the future, Wright would more than likely be gone after next season (if they even pick up his option). Pick up a veteran OFer to hopefully just hold down Trayce Thompsons spot while he gets some seasoning down in AAA. Someone like a Johnny Gomes. Lineup would set up as ADA Rios Wright Dunn Konerko AJP Gomes/Thompson Beckham Sanchez Bullpen Closer-Myers/Reed (doesnt Myers have a cheaper option for next year?) LH SU Veal RH SU Myers/Reed RH MR Crain LH MR Septimo RH LR Omogrosso LH LR Leesman I did no calculating as far as money goes so thats probably unrealistic but it'd be pretty fun

QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) Hope for the best. I'm cautiously optimistic that he'll at least put up something like a .700 OPS next year, which is fine with me. I don't expect him to have two separate months batting under .200, especially not a month like his first one this season. Manto has flat out said it -- he needed a lot of mechanical work to get consistent. He's had this season to work on things (not that easy) and he'll get an entire offseason with Manto this time around. Luckily, he's a huge plus defensively and he seemed to be on the rise offensively in the midst of our pennant chase. There are no replacements out there. You leave it be. If Chase Utley becomes available, you can forget Gordon. Until then, I'm okay with where we are. While I agree with your post I just wanted to point out that I'd love to have Marco Scutaro. He's old so he wouldn't be a long term solution but should someone come calling about Gordo with a good package I'd let him go, grab Marco for a year or 2, and hope Carlos Sanchez can take over after.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 01:00 PM) The starting pitching is a mess. The only mess I see is the fact that there is 4 lefties with a legit shot at the starting rotation. As far as Gordon goes I say give him one more year. See if the crouch he switched to for the final stretch can translate into greater success in 2013....A quality backup on the bench should be brought in (someone not named Rey Olmedo or Orlando Hudson) should he fail.