Dick Allen

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 01:01 PM) No, but letting Lester walk, trading Samardzija for zero established players, and trading away one of the best 3b in the game are very much rebuilding moves. If we traded away Quintana, let Sale walk, and traded away Abreu...I don't think we'd care if we brought in LaRoche to replace him, we'd still call that rebuilding. You stated they clearly committed to a rebuilding season. That is simply not the case. They thought they could win. He was trying to shuffle the deck. It wasn't a clear commitment. If it was, those names I mentioned wouldn't be around.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:36 PM) WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Keeping Scott Kazmir and Coco Crisp, trading for Tyler Clippard. Signing Billy Butler, aren't moves teams "totally committed" to rebuilding make. So laugh all you want. You are incorrect yet again.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:39 PM) Wrigley is a dump and is just as boring as the Cell. However, the neighborhood is completely different and we all know it. All the money is on the northside. All the 20-somethings are on the northside. They all have trust funds. Wrigleyville is bro-heaven. Everyone loves it. It's in the midst of where everyone wants to be. Bridgeport is nice ONLY compared to everything else on the southside. The southside is famous for murder. The stadium is surrounded by parking lots and ugly freeways. There are a couple bars. Wrigleyville is actually considered a tourist attraction. These thing affect ballpark experience. Maybe you or I don't like Wrigleyville, but we must acknowledge that the vast majority of people do. The upper deck view is definitely worse, but like I said, the ballpark (for the masses) is NOT the best place to follow the action anyway. People go to Wrigley simply to BE at Wrigley. Again, you're assuming that attendance = fan interest. It's a proxy, but it is not equal. Whether or not it's worthwhile to go to the ballpark DOES NOT EQUAL how much winning it requires for fans to follow the baseball team. You write about money, do you know studies have suggested on average White Sox fans make more money than Cubs fans? The Wrigley Field area has more crime during the day that around USCF at night.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:30 PM) I gave reasons why the fanbase would think that team was going to crap. Trading away a cy young winner is a pretty good one. Your response was "But they brought back Lyle Mouton please edit your post", so clearly you think that somehow bringing back Lyle Mouton in a trade should have sold tickets. Explain how? What am I forgetting about Lyle Mouton that would offset trading away a Cy Young Winner to the Yankees? Lyle Mouton is used as an inside joke on this board. That is what I was getting at. And as for McDowell, even after trading him they had a big 3 of Alvarez, Fernandez and Bere. All of whom you could have made a case might have been better than Black Jack when the strike hit.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:25 PM) That's a great comparison for what Timmy will probably be like if he's at SS in the big leagues in 2016. The difference? The A's sold off expensive pieces and clearly committed to a rebuilding season and are hoping that Semien can develop into a more solid defender at SS with time. Are you prepared to commit to 2016 as a rebuilding season? They didn't clearly commit to rebuilding.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:26 PM) yeah, ok, I'll agree, explain how acquiring Lyle Mouton would sell tickets? Who said he would sell tickets? Frank Thomas was the back to back MVP. The team was in first place back to back years. They couldn't sell as many tickets as 16 other teams.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:26 PM) Which is consistent with my argument, which is that ballpark attendance has more to do with the ballpark experience than it has to do with interest in the team, and that divide has grown (and will cotninue to grow) as time goes on and technology continues to evolve. I have been to both parks. The ballpark experience isn't very different. And I didn't go up there, but I would bet their upper deck is just as far away from the field. If not farther.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:23 PM) WOW OMG THEY ACQUIRED A 26 YEAR OLD WHO SPENT 1/2 THE SEASON IN CHARLOTTE FOR A CY YOUNG WINNER!!! WHY ON EARTH DIDN'T PEOPLE BUY TICKETS!! QUICK CHECK CHARLOTTE'S ATTENDANCE IN 1995, IT MUST HAVE SKYROCKETED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I figured that one would go over your head. The thing is, Black Jack really only had 1 good year after he left. Trading him wasn't a bad idea.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:21 PM) If anyone would take Danks they'd have moved him by now. Shark...letting him go doesn't fix the payroll mess they created since he's not under contract, and with the way he's pitching right now just settling for the crappy draft pick is starting to seem like better than what we'll be able to get in trade. Ramirez...yes we could possibly move him so I'm hoping he picks it up with the bats more in the next month, and that does help the payroll problem a lot...but then we have the delightful middle infield of Tim Anderson as a rookie who could be in AAA and Micah Johnson as a rushed sophomore next year, which is pretty **** far from a competitive infield. Yet you seem to love Marcus Semien who committed error number 11 last night.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:14 PM) The White Sox also had the multiple-whammy of JR being supposedly one of the leaders of the owners side pushing it that year and lost a chance to make a WS run the previous year and traded jack McDowell and then finished under .500. That wasn't a pleasant time to be a white sox fan. Lyle Mouton was acquired for Jack McDowell. Please edit your post. I do remember watch a Cubs/Sox preseason game at Wrigley before the season started, the Sox had Kruk and Sabo. Harry and Steve were going on and on about how loaded the Sox were.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:11 PM) It's an excuse but I think if you looked at all of baseball it was an excuse that year. It was not a "White Sox fan" excuse. I give all fans a pass that year as everyone was angry with baseball. 17th in the league in attendance after winning the division in 1993 and being in first place in 1994 with the 4th highest payroll, and supposedly a "new" stadium they are using as the excuse Twins fans draw better than the White Sox despite losing 95.5 games a year the last 4 years, seems like a bigger excuse to White Sox fans than others.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 11:59 AM) Because if this team falls flat like it's in the process of doing and the tiny "they spent money on the team" attendance bump evaporates, the financials for next season look terrible without adding a single soul. If they're below .500 in June and especially July, with 2-3 teams ahead of them, I think it would be extremely surprising if they didn't try to move some of that salary they just took on. If they pick up Alexei's option and offer arbitration to most of the guys who are arb-eligible, there's already a payroll increase to $125-130 million on the books for next year, up from $117m this year, and that's with allowing Samardzija to walk. Just to avoid losing money, which this franchise does not like to do, they will either have to turn this season around or they will have to get rid of some fraction of that money. We also heard last year there was no way they could have the payroll they currently are sporting. You have no idea of the White Sox finances. None of us do. They obviously have a plan in place, and that plan doesn't seem to be cutting back payroll after this season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 12:04 PM) "Essentially back to back divisions" is not how I would describe the average White Sox fan's response to 1994. Nor would it be mine. They "won" the dvision. Using the strike as an excuse is fine, but it's still and excuse. 17th in the league in attendance isn't very good for a team that had been very successful, and supposedly had the "new stadium" vibe to go along with it. The fans of other teams apparently were able to put the strike behind them.

And the Twins were coming off 99,96, and 96 loss seasons with just the "new stadium".

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 13, 2015 -> 11:52 AM) Wasn't there a minor thing called a "strike" in those years? Maybe one that knocked down the attendance average in the final year? Still was 17th in baseball with the 4th highest payroll and basically back to back divisions, and a "new stadium". The back to back titles is something that supposedly is required for people to attend now.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 10:52 AM) But that's what I'm talking about -- people are changing how they consume the game and teams are finding new revenue streams to take advantage of it. But the White Sox fans are coming out at an extremely low rate as these changes relate to fans of every team. The White Sox have finished in the top half of attendance overall twice this century. In 2006 and 2007. They haven't been in the top 20 since 2010.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 10:35 AM) But his biggest TV deal is his regional deal. That's money off of White Sox fans. And he is partners with the Bulls, Blackhawks and Cubs. If he was on his own, it would be a lot less.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 10:28 AM) You disagree, but most people clearly don't. And when you factor in the MASSIVE difference in cost, I can't blame anyone at all. And it's MASSIVE. Those $5 UD Sunday tickets everyone keeps referring to are NOT what you're consuming. Those seats are absolutely not nearly as good for following the game as TV, and they're STILL $5 more expensive than free. When I lived in Chicago, I went to about 4-5 games per year, but watched about 100-120 on TV. My favorite seats to follow the game (that I can afford) are UD, behind homeplate, rows 1 or 2. I would spend an average of about $30 on those seats. I would spend about $20 on food and beer. I would spend 1.5 hours round trip traveling on the Red Line. Those seats were great for seeing all the action, but I still would miss stuff that would get replayed on TV. If I just wanted to follow the game on a given night, it was NEVER worth $50 and a couple hours on the train when I could get it free at home. I would go to the games for the sake of the ballpark experience, not to see the players play. And that ballpark experience was compelling enough for about 4-5 trips per year. This is my whole point: Fans do not need to go to the game to follow the team. Therefore, the decision to go to a game is based on the ballpark experience. They already own the rights to the action. If the Sox want to increase attendance, they have to make the ballpark experience worthwhile. They're already ROLLING in money from the league and Comcast from selling the rights to the action. The Cell is easily the most boring MLB stadium I've ever been to. That's why I applaud efforts like the Shark Tank and the K Zone because, even if those aren't awesome ideas themselves, they're examples of things you can't get at home. They are adding value to the ballpark experience, which is what they need to do in order to successfully double-dip into the fanbase by simultaneouly creating cable revenue AND ticket revenue. I used to spend a lot of money, but not anymore. I have a weekend package for under $300, and I got on the 11 games for $29 deal. So that's 38 games for about $325. Plus I get free party at ChiSox Bar and Grill, another season ticketholder party, another free game with patio party, and I can basically sit wherever I want because of how few go to games. I spend very little on concessions, especially if I am with my wife. When I had club level seats, the server in our section said she was bad for business. But White Sox fans have used price as an excuse, they have used no lower deck access, although they usually don't check anymore, they used blue seats. All that has been changed, yet one thing remains consistant, people still won't go, and it will be something else. On WSI last year, and they whine about everything, from the parking lot guys and ushers not smiling at them to wondering why minimum wage employees who will be lucky to clear $20 a game after taxes, not being superstar servers, they complained that the $20 seats to watch Sale pitch weren't good enough seats. So basically what they were saying was the lower deck access thing so they could look at the statues and stuff was just a lie, they need a team that will win every year and a $15 seat within a couple rows of the dugout.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 10:29 AM) But attendance has nothing to do with TV contracts. But it does have to do with how much money JR is making off White Sox fans.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 13, 2015 -> 10:03 AM) I think this is all due to the poor start by the team. I think they would have preferred him to be in the pen until the middle or end of June and then transition to the rotation so they would have him during the pennant race. They need him there now because they have fallen behind in the standings with the poor start. It will be really interesting to see what they do with him in August/Sept. Do they shut him down or risk the fatigue and injury? Dan Hayes said yesterday he would be skipped from time to time. Obviously, if they could count on Noesi giving them 5 or 6 decent innings every 5th day, Rodon is still a reliever, and they need to start winning.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 10:11 AM) Wtf are you talking about with excuses? The team make more money off of their fans EVERY YEAR. They are making money off baseball fans, not necessarily White Sox fans. I don't think White Sox fans do much to fuel these large national TV contracts. And attendance has dropped every year since 2006.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 10:06 AM) I know that YOU do, but you're a season ticket holder, yes? How much do you pay for seats good enough to get a better pitch angle? And when you factor in instant reply, do you REALLY get a better view of what happens on the field? I'm not knocking on your consumption of the team at all -- I think we should all do whatever we can to enjoy the team as much as possible. You have worked for the means to be a STH in a nice seat and you've made the sacrifices necessary to commute back and forth several times a week. And to each his own. But if you compare your cost and time commitment to follow the team with the cost and time commitment to follow the team on TV -- just because someone isn't willing to pay thousands of dollars and several hours on the road per week to get something maybe SLIGHTLY better (in terms of actually following the action) than what they get in their TV package that they already pay for, doesn't make that person a s***ty fan. I really don't care about the time commitment, I am going to watch the game anyway. I am just saying it is far more enjoyable to me to watch a game live than on TV. I believe you wrote TV was a better option. I totally disagree, and I love Hawk.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 09:58 AM) ...and during those four years, they've had a brand new stadium. That's not apples to apples at all. average attendance years 2-5 of the White Sox new stadium: 33,101 31,865 30,042 22,204 average attendance years 2-5 of the Twins new stadium: 39,113 34,275 30,588 27,785 The White Sox had 2 division winners those years and a bad team in 1995. Twins average 95.5 losses per season, and in your other post you say TV is a better option. Just more excuses. .

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 13, 2015 -> 09:51 AM) And yet the team continues to grow its revenues every year, just like every other baseball team, because no matter how many times we have this conversation, everyone keeps pretending like it's 1980 and the internet and regional sports cable networks don't exist. Everyone is just going to HAVE to accept the fact that going to the game is no longer the most attractive option for following a baseball team. The ballpark experience is unique and valuable, but if you're a "die-hard" fan and want to follow the action, there's a better and cheaper option in your living room. Fortunately, the teams ARE being compensated handsomely for these channels, too. I'm a die hard fan and I go to as many games possible. Sure I get a better angle on a pitch on TV, but I also get a better view of the fielders and the plays developing at the park as long as you have a decent seat.

QUOTE (shysocks @ May 13, 2015 -> 09:54 AM) If the Sox were the Tigers and had won the division four years in a row, do you really believe the attendance would be lower in 2015 than in 2010? I'm just gonna keep asking until you answer. If they didn't win the WS again, yes, without a doubt. But if it takes winning the division 4 years in a row for people to attend games, your fan base sucks.