Dick Allen

Since 2000, Joey Votto was the 3rd pick in the 2nd round as was Jordan Zimmerman. The rest have had career WARs equal to that of the average Soxtalk poster.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 01:34 PM) I love how Luhnow gets brought up constantly as the voice of scouting wisdom on Abreu, because they were supposedly 2nd in the bidding. That's not exactly a glowing endorsement at this point in time. Now if Mozeliak said something like that.... And it doesn't mean they're actively shopping Viciedo or Ramirez, it just means they're not untouchable and Hahn is willing to listen. I would be pretty shocked if Viciedo or Ramirez is traded before next July. Luhnow was with the Cardinals for 8 years. It's better than a Buddy Bell endorsement.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 01:06 PM) Would a judge/mediator/arbitrator really make a decision based on performance in spring training? That seems a little far-fetched, and a difficult case to prove. Cabrera's agent would have argued that KW and Ozzie had a grudge against him, were bluffing about not offering him a starting position in order to be able to collect a draft pick (of course, we all know that Ramirez turned out to be a better SS NOW)...that they were malicious in their attempts to box him into a corner, etc. They could have used Ozzie's comments in the regular season about Cabrera only being concerned with his stats, blah blah blah. I always thought it was really risky considering they really wanted no part of Cabrera. The compensation ultimately was............................Josh Phegley.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 12:56 PM) I thought the whole point of offering binding arbitration was to pick up the draft pick/s, but had he accepted, they were locked into whatever number the judge decided upon (and 75-80% of the time, it has gone in the direction of the player). Yeah, but at least back then they could release them in spring training and only have to pay 20%. You would have to somehow show loss of skill if Cabrera filed a grievance, but they could have had him hitting against the better pitchers, things like that, to keep his spring training numbers low.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 12:43 PM) http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...s&fext=.jsp Cost himself around $4.5-5 million dollars...as he eventually ended up with only $4 million with the A's. What ultimately would have happened had he accepted and won $11 million would be the White Sox releasing him in spring training, he then receiving $2.2 million and trying to hook on with another team. Maybe another teams gives him $1 million, but during spring training it's hard to see him getting much more than that.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 12:01 PM) Still remember post-season 2008 and really dodging that bullet with Orlando Cabrera/Guillen/KW not accepting arbitration...opening the way for Ramirez to play SS full-time. I'm pretty sure he ended up worse off, didn't he? Yes and no. The Sox could have released him and payed him 20% of his arb number in spring training. Looking for a job in March most likely wouldn't have netted him the difference from what he ultimately received.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 11:55 AM) Because Weiters will give you draft compensation at the end, which is something a rebuilding team could really use. There is always a chance that he steps away from Boras and signs an extension if he likes it here and feels he is compensated fairly. He at least presents the opportunity for long term value, AJ and Ruiz do not. So you think the 2016 draft pick, which could even be a second rounder is reason to give up what you would have to give up to get him? AJ and Ruiz only cost you money.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 11:52 AM) Or let him walk and add a piece through the draft that can replace a player they trade to fill the slot if they cannot find an internal option by then. Wieters makes this a much better team as he is good defensively and a huge upgrade offensively. He will earn less than Salty over the rest of his arb years, is the same age, and has been better over his career. This is a great buy low candidate, because if he bounces back you can spin him next year for better players than you are going to have to give up to acquire him. If not you have at least a serviceable C for two seasons. He's not a buy low candidate. No way Angelos would allow that. To get Matt Weiters, you are going to have to pay a pretty penny.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 11:37 AM) I'd make that deal. Weiters just had a down year and was still 2.4 fWAR. Flowers just threw -0.1 at us. If Weiters is good, the White Sox can extend him and solve the catcher conundrum for years to come. Extension and Boras don't go together. Considering you keep saying signing someone like AJ for a year or two makes zero sense, how does it make sense to give up players for basically the same concept with Weiters?

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 08:46 AM) Question for all - it has been mentioned that we'll call the BoSox about Victorino. Would you prefer to sign Granderson for something like 4/$40M or trade something valuable for Victorino? The questions would be why would Boston want to trade him, and what would it cost to get him? Most likely a lot more than a 2nd round pick.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 02:33 PM) If that's how you interpret it, then that's your perogative. I view it as them not wanting to risk $14 million on a 1 year deal when they are looking to upgrade to a guy like McCann for $16-18 mill a year over 6 years. Having 1 catcher make $16 million, another making $14.1 million, and a third making $3.1 million does not seem to be an efficient use of resources. Yet according to reports, the Red Sox would rather have Salty than pay McCann what you claim. They just don't think Salty is worth as much as you think, as they are looking for short term solutions until their prospects are ready. Certainly not McCann for 6 years.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 01:56 PM) Not sure what you're getting at here. There was no qualifying offer made to Saltalamacchia What I'm getting at is if he were offered the QO, and is definitely worth the 4 year $40 million you claim, the worry the Red Sox would have of him taking it because they want McCann (someone else earlier in the thread) or don't want to pay him $14 million for one year, is probably moot, and the Red Sox get a draft pick to boot. If he is a 2-3 WAR player, that means he at least close to worth the QO. The Red Sox apparently don't think so.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 01:49 PM) It's also worth noting that there's a pretty significant difference between $10 mill [per year] and $14.1 million. It's also worth noting, if, indeed he is offered 4 years $40 million, there is a significant chance his $14.1 qualifying offer would be rejected. Of course, his offers probably shrink if he was offered the QO. That, and the World Series benching, and his 2013 .372 BABIP, tell me the Red Sox think they can do better or a team winning the World Series at least makes the QO.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 01:03 PM) He had a reputation as a poor defender? Heck, he had a reputation prior to coming to the Sox as a fielder at all? I understood him as a "3b who didn't have big power and so couldn't break into the Giants rotation because of Sandoval but who might be useful to a team like the White Sox with no 3b incumbent". Can you back up his "reputation as a poor defender"? From SSS: Gillaspie's minor-league track record doesn't scream "sure bet." He hit .289/.368/.447 in Triple-A, and while that would be a fine line for the International League, it doesn't stand out in the hitter-friendly environs of the Pacific Coast League. On top of that, his defense wasn't supposed to be this sound. While John Sickels said he improved his D to an adequate level, he wasn't supposed to provide the steady glovework he's shown thus far. As Grant Brisbee put it: Gillaspie kind of wins out now that he has a shot to make the White Sox bench, and the American League is probably better for him, considering his fielding is pretty rough. And by "rough", I think the phrase that we settled on was "he throws like Johnny Damon wearing boxing gloves", and it's not like he showed off soft hands in his brief appearances. Without a breakout bat and a defined set of defensive skills, he slid down the organizational rankings. Even though he was just 24, he wasn't even one of John Sickels' top 20 Giants prospects (contrast that with where Jared Mitchell stood on the Sox lists; that'll give you an idea of depth).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 12:54 PM) Because the one thing this actual discussion needed was someone to be an a**. You pinned every other failure to spring training without even being there. Why can't this be blamed on that as well? And if he did field well at the beginning of the season even though he had a reputation of being a poor defender, wouldn't that hurt your theory that you have stated as fact at least 100 times that the White Sox problems were because they didn't work as hard during spring training.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 12:45 PM) Defensively Uribe might be an upgrade when you figure Keppinger in, but Gillaspie looked like one of the Sox's more reliable defenders last year to my eyes until he fell off a cliff at the end of the season (note the context in that he's getting compared to the rest of the team). I think he has room to grow into a decent defensive piece, but I have no idea what started happening to him around that 3 error game. It had to be something in spring training.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 12:31 PM) Yes. He is going to ultimately still play 100-120 games and receive 400+ plate appearances with good defense. If you consider this to be 2/3 of his value (because he's only playing 2/3 of the time) and that his full time value would be $15 million, it's pretty similar to giving a middle infielder who puts up a .270/.330/.450 line with good defense $15 million a year. If that were your teams biggest weakness, I'd have no problem doing that either. Over the past 3 years, teams would have typically paid $33.4 million for his previous 3 years, and I believe he ultimately probably lost some value over that time playing against LHP. Yes, he is absolutely worth $10 mill a year, but I wouldn't give him much, if any, more than that. If he was absolutely worth that much, I have a feeling the Red Sox would have at least made him a QO.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 10:58 AM) Seth Davis was on Mully and Hanley this morning and made it pretty clear that this isn't going to change come conference time. If refs have to call 60 fouls a game, they'll do it. That's the order they've been given. I can't imagine how unwatchable some of the big ten games will be. Especially considering how much they have let go in Big 10 games over the years. If you were playing at home, you needed a paramedic to attend to an opposing player to get whistled for a foul.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 12:23 PM) Except that Saltalamacchia really is a platoon catcher, so if you realize that and limit his ABs against lefties, he's suddenly very valuable. Against RHP in his career, he's at .263/.327/.469/.795, while he's at .206/.267/.332/.599 against LHP. Keep either Phegley or Flowers on the roster to play against most lefties, and you have a pretty decent catching tandem on your hands. You will also have full control of him longer than you will Wieters. And you want to pay a platoon catcher with questionable defense $10 million a year for multiple years?

QUOTE (Dunt @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 12:14 PM) Never sign someone based on a career year, his numbers otherwise shout regression to the mean Yeah, Salty's BABIP last year was .372.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 10:11 AM) The point was that he'll only get limited opportunities against LHP and is that really worth using a roster spot. I've never questioned his ability to hit LHP. If you look at the 2012 White Sox, no non regular had as many as 170 plate appearances. It's really not a waste of a roster spot. There are better fits, and Paulie knows this. I'm thinking if he decides to come back, he's feeling well and thinks he can still play at a high level. I don't think he cares to embarrass himself and he has plenty of money. I read an article a few years ago where his dad said he still pulls money out of an ATM $20 at a time.

Paulie also stated if he did play, it would be for one more season, so I really don't think the athlete hanging on not knowing when to say good bye is applicable here.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 09:35 AM) Come on, athletes are horrible with accepting their best days are behind them. He has the right to make that call, but so do the White Sox. If Hahn thinks Konerko is done, then loyalty should have nothing to do with it. Making bad baseball decisions for the sake of being loyal is a real bad way to run a baseball team. If Jerry wants to reward Paulie for his years of service then give him some token job in the organization that doesn't affect the 25 man roster. Even taking a 2013 Konerko, it isn't a bad baseball decision having him play against LHP. His batting average was over .300. His OBP was almost .400. His OPS was over .900.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 08:53 AM) What's the point of bringing him back though? His only value at this point comes as the weak half of a DH platoon. Is that really worth a roster spot? And what if Robin decides to give Konerko more starts than that and ends up cutting into Abreu's playing time? Unfortunately, I could totally see that happening and IMO that would be bad for Abreu's development. Also, we can all try to minimize the percieved value of the 25th man, but there is a reason even contenders take advantage of expanded rosters come September. The value of having an extra arm in your pen goes well beyond the WAR he provides. When Santiago has one of his 5 inning starts or the team goes into extras, it's real nice to have a pitcher that can simply eat innings and protect the rest of the staff. IMO, it's much harder to have a designated long-guy with a six man pen. If your starters can go consistently deep then maybe it's not a problem, but I don't think we're there yet. The point being the White Sox treat their guys with dignity and respect. Maybe it means nothing, but it certainly doesn't hurt their reputation, which could come back to them someday, and Paulie has earned the right to make the call, and I don't think he would come back unless he thought he had something left in the tank. If Konerko came back, I don't think it would be at the expense of a pitcher, I think it would mean a guy like L. Garcia, who can play both infield and outfield makes the roster. A guy like Jordan Danks is who it costs a job. No big deal.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 13, 2013 -> 07:16 AM) I'd be perfectly happy platooning Dunn, but whose spot on the roster are you giving up to bring back Konerko? Honestly, I think Keppinger would have to go if we bring back Paulie. And quite frankly, I'd much rather have Keppinger on my bench than Paulie. Both would play primarily against LHP, but Keppinger can technically play mutliple positions which is important with a four man bench. I'll always love Paulie for what he's done for us, but giving him a farewell tour doesn't make much baseball sense. It's the 25th man on the roster spot. For the saberguys, that's generally a replacement level player anyway. A young player would be better off playing every day in Charlotte.It will tie Ventura's hands a little bit, but in the grand scheme of things, it won't cost the Sox wins. If Paulie wants to play for the Sox, it's the right thing to do. I still think he isn't coming back.