Dick Allen

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 03:26 PM) No, but it'd be nice if it seemed like people would take the full package into account. I can actually understand people coming down on the negative side on De Aza, I can get that...but it's not because he struck out too much. It's because he disappointed in a number of different ways, including baserunning, fielding, mental mistakes, and reliability with the bats. Rick Hahn thought he struck out too much. De Aza has some value, but when the team you follow plays as bad as the 2013 White Sox, there are a lot of players a lot of people are sick of watching. Maybe it seems logical, maybe not.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 03:20 PM) Let's try this. How would you react to a person saying "I don't like Tyler Flowers. He didn't throw enough runners out last year". Seems like I'm missing a few things doesn't it? Fine. Flowers stunk. Are you telling me if you think someone strikes out too much, in your world you are locked into liking players just because they don't strike out? I think everyone probably even yourself, likes that Keppinger rarely strikes out. But that doesn't mean they have to like the rest of what he brings to the table.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 03:12 PM) That's the problem with you though...your complaints about guys don't follow any pattern, you just decide you like some guys and don't like some guys. Your entire complaint about De Aza can't be "oh he strikes out too much" if you also think the guy who doesn't strike out as much "Stinks". Use some consistency. Everyone gets what De Aza's weaknesses last year were. Strikeouts might have been a little bit of a problem for him, but they weren't anywhere near the worst of his problems. If he struck out 25% less, he'd have been a slightly better player but he'd still have been extremely frustrating. That's why it seems nuts that your complaint about him at first was "he strikes out too much". Just because someone strikes out too much, doesn't mean you have to think a guy who rarely strikes out is good. It is not being inconsistent. It isn't mutually exclusive. There are people who don't like pitchers who don't throw hard. Are they then locked into thinking every hard thrower is good? The problem with the Greg bashers is you rush to criticize everything he posts before you actually think about it.

QUOTE (flavum @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 09:01 AM) The Sox don't have room for a 38-year-old who had a bad season for a 99-loss team. It's ridiculous this has dragged on this long. But if they can move Dunn and still have Konerko as a part time player, I'll take it just so I don't have to watch Dunn anymore. Hawk? He's terrible, and getting worse. I hope he gets in the Hall so maybe he'll retire. As far as getting to mediocre---we've seen how well that's worked over the last 5-6 years. No direct plan...just get some guys with track records and hope it all clicks...then it doesn't. The good news is I think Hahn is a pretty smart guy, and he'll be able to play both sides of a fielding a mediocre team for 2014 without sacrificing a rebuild for 2015 and 2016. When you say the Sox have no room, ask yourself whose spot is he taking.

QUOTE (flavum @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 08:36 AM) To sum up-- Konerko has earned the right to come back Hawk deserves to be in the Hall of Fame They'll spend money to reach a level of mediocrity because he has to watch the games. Agree. Agree. I don't see why anyone would be opposed to the White Sox spending money to be average if they are still committed to their farm system. But White Sox fans find something wrong with everything. There has been several times the White Sox were expected to be average or worse and had fun seasons.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Nov 15, 2013 -> 06:12 PM) Holy crap, didn't realize Snider backed out of his committment and ended up with Pitino. Geezus, it might be the worst day in Illini Basketball History. That includes Deon Thomas. I think Groce or whoever the next coach is, flat out needs to hire Robert Smith and get a tunnel going into Chicago. That's the only way this is ever going to work. Personally, I think losing Snider is a bigger blow to Illinois than Cliff going to Kansas. If Cliff was a one year player, chances are they aren't a final 4 team anyway. Snider is a guy who would have been around a few years, helping them consistently win a lot of games.

Is he a one and done guy? The thing is, if you are a one and done guy don't you want to play for a team with a legit shot at the National Championship next year? I really don't think ILL can offer that, and DePaul definitely can't offer that right now. When you think about it, his choice was pretty obvious.

Nothing will ever compare to the Payne family when it comes to changing their minds. Cully Payne was/is a mediocre at best division 1 guard. He played at at least 2 high schools, I believe 3. In 8th grade he committed to DePaul. Switched to Alabama, ultimately went to Iowa. Transferred to Loyola and left Loyola. I don't know where he is at right now. He has a sister who is on her 2nd or 3rd college playing basketball, and his younger brother committed to Loyola but in now a freshman at Ball State. I put the chances he is on Ball State's roster in 2 years at 0%.

If a stud decommits from another program to go to yours, it's cool, no problem. If he decommits from your program to go to another, he is scum, his family is scum, the school he is going to is scum. It's pretty much standard for fans of all programs. We all have to keep in mind these are 17-18 year old kids making decisions and they have influences pulling them in every direction.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 11:47 PM) Do we know yet that Hahn refuses to work with Scott Boras? How many years has Hahn been the Sox "contract guy" and how many Boras clients have they actually signed to contracts other than automatic renewals? The other problem is he almost always takes his guys to free agency and if he doesn't get what he is looking for, will wait until March. You then are forced to make a decision to meet his demands, move on, or take a huge risk you will he left with nothing if he goes elsewhere. If Weiters sticks with Boras as his agent, he is going to be a free agent in 2 seasons. If the Sox are flush with cash and not going to win in the next 2 seasons, why not wait and sign him as a free agent, and either develop and keep the talent that it would take to acquire him, or trade that talent for other pieces?

Daryl Von whatever, Sun Times beat writer, was on Kaplan's show and confirmed Dan Hayes' report about everyone being available except Sale, Q, Abreu and Garcia. A GM also told him Reed was basically untouchable as well.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 06:12 PM) Wieters is also a marketable name. That's worth considering/ I don't think that is worth considering. If fans don't come to see a team that was in first place most of the season in 2012, they aren't going to buy tickets because Weiters is catching.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 04:10 PM) That's a terrible argument. That's like saying "Why would we trade for Mike Stanton when we could just sign Marlon Bryd to a 3 year deal. 3 years vs. 3 years, and you have to give up something for Stanton." Except the difference is that Stanton will actually command a gigantic contract, Wieters won't. I don't know why people think we could sign Brian McCann for $15M a year, yet Wieters we could not afford to bring back. No, the argument is he has stated the White Sox shouldn't acquire pieces that are short term solutions. Weiters is repped by Boras. You can say maybe this maybe that, but reality is he would be a short term solution who would cost players who otherwise may be part of the long term solution or used to acquire long term solutions. And Scott Boras certainly is a good reason to think Weiters would be 2 and out.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 04:38 PM) The Sox probably won't win anything in two years, but what I have constantly said is that I believe the way to rebuild is in gradual chunks rather than tank-tank-tank-go nuts in free agency. So I am in support of any acquisition that the White Sox make that will retain its value over several years, therefore serving as a foundation. Secondly, Weiters is a 2.5-3.5 WAR player -- large market teams can afford those players, especially when the things they do well aren't the things that are valued most highly by the free agent market, i.e. batting average, homers, RBI. If Weiters remains what he is now or bounces back to his last couple years, the Sox will absolutely be able to afford him when he becomes a free agent. If he breaks out and turns into a superstar, then great. Maybe we can't afford him, or maybe we can, but maybe he also plays so well it pushes our window up. Scott Boras and the White sox don't work out. Weiters is a short term solution that would cost a lot to acquire. It is laughable anyone would think Beckham and Santiago would get it done.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 03:26 PM) Um, because AJ is 36, and Weiters is 27... Yes, but 2 years vs. 2 years and you have to give up something for Weiters. Haven't you constantly said they Sox aren't going to win anything the next 2 years? So why give up good players for a guy who will be gone in 2 years?

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 03:03 PM) Absolutely. Viciedo is an enigma that baffles and frustrates everybody. I like Viciedo and think he still can be really good, but I don't know why he would baffle anyone. It's pretty clear what his problem is. Frustrating for sure. Baffling? No way. If the White Sox are baffled, they need new management.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 03:08 PM) Looks like it's about $1.25 mill or so Yes, but if you weren't earmarking that for the pick and going to go cheap on that pick just to spread that amount around later, it even further decreases it's value, at least player-wise. So I take it pretty much a wash since you wouldn't be paying that player anyway. I can understand a team walking away from signing a free agent because they would lose their first round pick. But not solely because they lose the 2nd rounder. IMO, the Sox thought they could get Granderson fairly reasonably earlier, but with the QO out there, they probably realize they could not. I also think they put Granderson's worth at more than just his numbers. I think he was/is the type of veteran they would like influencing the young guys.

Since 2000, Joey Votto was the 3rd pick in the 2nd round as was Jordan Zimmerman. The rest have had career WARs equal to that of the average Soxtalk poster.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 01:34 PM) I love how Luhnow gets brought up constantly as the voice of scouting wisdom on Abreu, because they were supposedly 2nd in the bidding. That's not exactly a glowing endorsement at this point in time. Now if Mozeliak said something like that.... And it doesn't mean they're actively shopping Viciedo or Ramirez, it just means they're not untouchable and Hahn is willing to listen. I would be pretty shocked if Viciedo or Ramirez is traded before next July. Luhnow was with the Cardinals for 8 years. It's better than a Buddy Bell endorsement.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 01:06 PM) Would a judge/mediator/arbitrator really make a decision based on performance in spring training? That seems a little far-fetched, and a difficult case to prove. Cabrera's agent would have argued that KW and Ozzie had a grudge against him, were bluffing about not offering him a starting position in order to be able to collect a draft pick (of course, we all know that Ramirez turned out to be a better SS NOW)...that they were malicious in their attempts to box him into a corner, etc. They could have used Ozzie's comments in the regular season about Cabrera only being concerned with his stats, blah blah blah. I always thought it was really risky considering they really wanted no part of Cabrera. The compensation ultimately was............................Josh Phegley.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 12:56 PM) I thought the whole point of offering binding arbitration was to pick up the draft pick/s, but had he accepted, they were locked into whatever number the judge decided upon (and 75-80% of the time, it has gone in the direction of the player). Yeah, but at least back then they could release them in spring training and only have to pay 20%. You would have to somehow show loss of skill if Cabrera filed a grievance, but they could have had him hitting against the better pitchers, things like that, to keep his spring training numbers low.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 12:43 PM) http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...s&fext=.jsp Cost himself around $4.5-5 million dollars...as he eventually ended up with only $4 million with the A's. What ultimately would have happened had he accepted and won $11 million would be the White Sox releasing him in spring training, he then receiving $2.2 million and trying to hook on with another team. Maybe another teams gives him $1 million, but during spring training it's hard to see him getting much more than that.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 12:01 PM) Still remember post-season 2008 and really dodging that bullet with Orlando Cabrera/Guillen/KW not accepting arbitration...opening the way for Ramirez to play SS full-time. I'm pretty sure he ended up worse off, didn't he? Yes and no. The Sox could have released him and payed him 20% of his arb number in spring training. Looking for a job in March most likely wouldn't have netted him the difference from what he ultimately received.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 11:55 AM) Because Weiters will give you draft compensation at the end, which is something a rebuilding team could really use. There is always a chance that he steps away from Boras and signs an extension if he likes it here and feels he is compensated fairly. He at least presents the opportunity for long term value, AJ and Ruiz do not. So you think the 2016 draft pick, which could even be a second rounder is reason to give up what you would have to give up to get him? AJ and Ruiz only cost you money.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 11:52 AM) Or let him walk and add a piece through the draft that can replace a player they trade to fill the slot if they cannot find an internal option by then. Wieters makes this a much better team as he is good defensively and a huge upgrade offensively. He will earn less than Salty over the rest of his arb years, is the same age, and has been better over his career. This is a great buy low candidate, because if he bounces back you can spin him next year for better players than you are going to have to give up to acquire him. If not you have at least a serviceable C for two seasons. He's not a buy low candidate. No way Angelos would allow that. To get Matt Weiters, you are going to have to pay a pretty penny.