Dick Allen

The Indians don't want him, the Twins don't want him........On the other hand he won't cost much, I suppose it wouldn't necessarily be the White Sox final answer at 3B

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 07:29 PM) But the biggest mistake people make is assume they can expect repeat years from year to year.......from anyone. Thus, we need to upgrade wherever possible, because the drop off in production we'll get from--whoever, De Aza, Rios, catcher spot-- has to be offset at least SOME. There is reason to believe several White Sox will be better. Maybe they won't . There usually are a couple of surprises both good and bad. I do agree, the roster still needs some work, and something will be done. They are serious about competing next year.

The Sox were still doing OK with a worthless Morel and then Hudson in 2011. Hannahan/Morel would be depressing, without a doubt but still an upgrade over the first half of 2011,

One thing to keep in mind, $7 million of Paulie's salary this year is deferred into $1 million increments from 2014-2020, and the additional $25 million a year kicks in for TV next year. The Sox have some wiggle room even if they are being straight about payroll remaining the same.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 06:10 PM) https://twitter.com/PMac21/status/276111390979276800 Phil Mackey ‏@PMac21 Slow day on #MNTwins front again, aside from several meetings. I heard Twins did meet with 3B Jack Hannahan's rep yesterday. Thank God. From a personal perspective, Jack Hannahan would have depressed me. At a game last year against Cleveland, I told my buddy the Indians won't contend until they stop trotting out guys like Hannahan to play 3B.

Maybe this post will change things this year but unless your team is in on free agents the winter meetings are just a cock tease

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 02:02 PM) Ugh. I've responded to all of you points in other posts, I just think that you aren't reading them. That's fine, few here read my posts anyway. For the record, I hate iPads and all that s*** anyway. I think they're excessive and too many people use them to be lazy. When they're too busy looking at their phones and junk to watch for cars while crossing the street/parking lot, I feel a deep inner desire to run them over on purpose. I'd love to own a snowplow, and if I did I'd weld spikes onto it, and I'd pile up bodies in the parking lots of every major shopping area. People wouldn't identify Wal-Marts by the big lighted signs out front, they'd identify the stores by the giant mass of rotting flesh mounded in the back of the parking lot. But I don't know why I'm going on about this because this has nothing to do with baseball. I was just thinking yesterday that it's like I'm the one coaching first base here, and I'm out there shagging flyballs to Rajai Davis, and he keeps making these one-handed spin catches all the time even though after every single one I have to hear Farmio in my ear screaming "God damn it Rajai that's not how we play it!" Do we still play defense in the bottom of the 3rd inning while on the road? Do we still have to wear pants in the outfield? Yes, Rajai. Yes we do. Grab your glove and take the field. The game hasn't changed *that* much in the last 100+ years to the point where OPS on paper is so valuable that it negates proper context. Put aside this argument for a second and just consider that one last point of mine about the HOF. Dunn is going to be on that list, and if he doesn't get in, he'll stick around because of the sheer number of HRs he has hit during his career. Napoli OTOH doesn't sniff it. Maybe you and others think the game hasn't caught up to the times/stats, but I OTOH disagree, and I feel that the understanding of the game has generally gone down, and people probably know less about it now than before, and weights on stats like HRs are actually important for the right reasons. Granted, ERA is way overrated, as is fielding %, but batting average is NOT since contact (especially hard contact) is a specific skill, and so on. Graphs & computers have done a great job as far as evaluating movement on pitches and movement on defense/defensive sets in relation to batted balls, but offensively, IMO the stats are making fans dumber. JMO. Tell ya what: you say toe-mah-toe all you want & I'm gonna keep saying toe-may-toe & that will be that. But if you can find where I said that paying $15M per to Adam Dunn is wise I will not post on this forum for at least 6 months. I promise. QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Dec 3, 2012 -> 12:02 PM) 3 years, $39M is a good deal for Dunn if he was a FA right now My mistake, you said 3 years 39 million is a good deal for Dunn.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 01:55 PM) The arrogance on both sides will make this thread unbearable soon. Personally, I think the best evaluators are good using both sides. I think at times stats lie and at times your eyes deceive. That said, I don't think any here actually is being paid for evaluations. If people want to argue a player's worth using either or both, what's the harm? Debating player performance is part of what makes the game fun.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 01:03 PM) ptatc, maybe you can respond in whatever non-baseball thread we have here......but what things do you keep in mind when evaluating an ACL-tear player returning to NFL (Adrian Peterson) vs. returning to NBA (Derrick Rose) takes longer in basketball due to hardfloor vs. grass/turf? more jumping for longer continuous periods of time? I don't know if you saw it, but the Sun Times is reporting DRose will be back practicing in the next couple of weeks.

I wonder if any of this caused is drop in performance in 2011. If the Sox get the 2008-2010 John Danks, it will be a tremendous addition.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 12:55 PM) The advanced stats are a wonderful tool for compiling lists for fantasy drafts and other internet nonsense that doesn't ever matter in real life. In reality, fit is everything. If you're too right-handed, you need lefties. If you're too slow, you need some speed. If you're too one-dimensional in any manner on offense, you need to make the adjustments necessary to score in as many different ways as possible. The Detroit Tigers don't need more win shares up the middle, they need defense up the middle. The Minnesota Twins don't need to figure out the average worth of their home runs, they need to get some starting pitching. The Kansas City Royals might as well can every stat happy member of their FO if their s***ty owner isn't going to spend any money. Etc. Fit is absolutely everything & right now the Sox need a 3B that they can fit into their budget. They're pretty average IMO all across the board, better on the pitching and defense side of things, but the Sox overall don't appear to have an elite starting staff, an elite bullpen, an elite defense, an elite offense, nor are they exceptionally balanced, young, or cheap. Because of this there are several possibilities to consider. If they sign Youkilis then they need to make salary disappear from another area which weakens the team in another area most likely, and also, they still need to acquire a long-term fit (prospect most likely) since Youk isn't going to be more than a 2-3 year option. Youkilis provides some offense, but he's still not going to provide a huge lift unless he has a major rebound which you can't bet on, so if you sign him you still need to add a bat. Get Reynolds and it's the same thing, money and a short term solution, but the defense takes a major hit. The offense upgrades and the cost per year is much lower, and if you plan on Reynolds as a 1B/3B, you're still right-handed heavy, but maybe you can move Paulie or even possibly Dunn in the right deal, and save more cash. Maybe you bring in a little lefty in a platoon role and play him some at 3B and some in the OF or 2B as a backup. There are endless possibilities and I'm not advocating signing either Reynolds or Youkilis, I am just pointing out that *nowhere* in the process do you go all-out all the Bill James and start posting graphs all over the place like in that movie A Beautiful Mind where that dude puts s*** all over his wall because he's trying to catch up to the Ruskies or whatever. You just look at what you have in terms of a lineup, what your defense is, what your payroll situation is, what trade chips you have, etc. and you try to engineer the best possible team in as few moves as possible, because 8 trades and 5 signings in an offseason is really unlikely, but 3 trades and 2 signings could happen. You try to be realistic and you try to keep in line with the major goal of your offseason, which (should be) to either go younger and build a longer term window or contention, or win right now. Also, the home run is the best offensive stat ever. That's the best thing you can do as a hitter and it's value can only ever be equaled, i.e. a HBP with the bases juiced in the bottom of the ninth is just as good as a HR, but it's not better. That said, the HR isn't everything and you'll get into trouble building an offense that can't do much outside of that, but if you are talking about power hitters (and SLG is supposed to measure power/driving the ball) then there is NOTHING better than a HR. Adam Dunn, worst case scenario, collects votes and remains on the HOF ballot when his career is over. Napoli would be very lucky to hang on there long enough to reach year 2. There's no comparison. Both players have exactly 2 skills and that is it. Dunn's use of those 2 skills, both in 2012 and over his career dwarfs Napoli's use of his two skills. The only thing Napoli ever had on Dunn was the ability to call himself a catcher and compare himself to other catchers. He can't do that anymore because he's not good enough to stick there. Computers and cell phones are bad ideas too. I don't know what you have against advanced stats that can tell you even more about performance. Granted, no stat is unflawed, but you have written paying Napoli $13 million a year is stupid, and paying Adam Dunn $15 million a year is wise. Then you mention home runs. Over the past 3 years, Napoli homers more per plate appearance than Adam Dunn. Gets more hits, reaches base more often. I would think that is more significant than what happened 7 or 8 years ago.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 12:21 PM) I would be shocked if AJ is brought back at this point. He and his team want to capitalize on this last season and we simply arent ponying up the cash. The Sox are banking on his fear of going to a new clubhouse that doesnt know him as well as ours, not sure thats going to work. Only chance he's back here is on the cheap (market relative) They know they are playing on borrowed time with AJ. History suggests catchers fall fast, many at a younger age than AJ is right now. It is possible he will still be doing what he did in 2012 in 2013 and 2014. It is probably probable he won't at least one of those years. I just wonder what their ceiling is on a contract for him. I don't expect him back. Someone will pay up.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 12:13 PM) Hahn has indicated that 3B is the White Sox biggest concern. I imagine there's some leveraging going on there, but it doesn't make sense that you had two players at two positions who are free agents at your two biggest question marks with two questionable replacements waiting in the wings, yet you indicate you are happy with one position while the other is still a main concern. Except saying Flowers is ready to handle the load goes over a lot better than saying Morel is ready to handle it, or saying they are going to put Sanchez there. The White Sox have no clear best options internally to play 3B, while Flowers is clearly the internal choice at C. Hahn also indicated he was very comfortable with Gimenez as a back up. I'm pretty sure he will be getting another C, whether it is AJP or not.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 12:07 PM) He did mention that the Yankees carry insurance that would pay 70% of ARod's salary, so maybe ARod doesn't 'officially' retireso he keeps getting paid, but in fact is effectively finished. Sort of like Albert Belle.

I heard it was the other hip, not a re-tear. I wonder if his "one year" of steroid use has anything to do with it.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 12:01 PM) I noticed you substituted semantics for actually answering my question. No I answered it. If he performs and he stays healthy, his time would not be cut.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 11:54 AM) Hahn saying the team is not concerned with catcher tells me that Pierzynski is being shown the door. Possible, but he's certainly not going to say the opposite publicly. It would take any negotiating leverage he had away. If AJ still signed with another team, it would leave him with a catcher who knows the GM has zero confidence. It is strange we hear absolutely nothing about AJP negotiations with any team.

One thing we really don't know is what the White Sox payroll is going to be. They always say they are right against it. Sometimes they don't spend another dime, sometimes they add $25 million to the payroll.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 11:15 AM) But if he wants to get paid, AND play 140 games, which all indications are he does, why would he come back here. AJ has played 140 games or more exactly once in his career, and a several of those appearances were because he had to pinch hit or enter as a defensive replacement after a pinch hitter or runner for his back up. Don't make things up thinking you know exactly what AJ wants. And if he performs like he did last year, if he re-signed, why would his time be cut? It is all about how they think he will play the next couple of years and what it will cost, and what they really think about Flowers or someone else they could bring in. AJ has signed 3 or 4 White Sox contracts. If he was as hated or the distraction many make him out to be, he would have been gone long ago. His time may be up, and it might even be the correct move, but the 8 years he was here, the Sox got their money's worth.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 10:32 AM) Why would AJ come back here to take a diminished role? He would get paid, and would be somewhere he is comfortable. His role would only be diminished if his performance warranted it diminished. I just don't get where anyone gets the idea AJ tells management he's not taking a day off. I guess it is all part of the campaign to prove he is a tool. Throw out as much garbage as you can and see if it sticks. AJ has saved the White Sox at least 25 starts by back up catchers every year. If you look at some of his back ups over the years, that was pretty huge.

QUOTE (balfanman @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 09:15 AM) One of the many reasons that I do not believe that AJP will be brought back is the need to diminish his workload. AJP would almost surely balk at this notion, but for the betterment of the club it would almost have to be somewhere around a 100 - 60 game split over the 140 - 20 game split we've seen in the past. Even if AJP still feels he can catch every game I want someone else out there who is better defensively and at throwing. JMHO. I don't buy that. AJ doesn't make out the line up card. If they wanted him to rest more, he would rest more, especially at his advancing age. I think it is a budget thing as well as trying to project AJ's performance moving forward, and they feel, although I disagree, they have a capable replacement in house. IMO, Tyler is a good back up who is probably capable of playing 60-75 games a year. I think he will really get exposed if he ever gets anywhere near AJ's workload. Catchers take a beating, and it hurts them offensively, especially later in the season. Flowers hasn't experienced that at the MLB level.

If AJ came back and went 0-60 in spring training and Flowers hit .800 with 10 homers, AJP would be starting. The quote was probably phrased a little awkwardly, but it really was harmless. I like that Flowers thinks he should be a regular catcher. If he gets the opportunity, he will have to show it on the field.

Napoli got more for 3 years than the Sox paid AJ for 8.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 3, 2012 -> 06:30 PM) "Looks like AJ will leave" Sox are perfect trade partners...makes too much sense...gavin floyd will be White Sox trade chip...blah blah blah Yeah, that was lame.

MLB Network is talking White Sox/Red Sox after the break.