Dick Allen

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 09:54 AM) What were they at the time of the Jackson trade? I would guess they were somewhere between 4th and 6th. Why would you expect the pitching to do so much better than the hitters? Are you suddenly expecting the same results as the Padres, Mariners, Tigers and Giants get because of their pitch-friendly outfields? Your facile comparison of ERA isn't adjusting AT ALL for the park they play 81 of their home games in. Why were we 10th or 11th in the American League for most of this season in scoring runs, the number that is much more relevant than batting average (sorry Greg and Juan Pierre). Why don't we hit well in one of the easiest parks to hit a home run in? Why have we been far below average at home compared to the rest of the AL from 2009-2011? How many runs have been charged to the pitching staff that were plays which/could should have been made by Juan Pierre or Alex Rios but weren't ruled as errors? Are you taking that into account, as well? Rios and Pierre have been atrocious in the outfield for much of this season. Now what, you're going to argue they were first in the AL in offense after the first week of the season? Rudy Jaramillo is one example. And it's not like the Cubs' offense isn't better than ours. I'll just leave you with this. You said Walker should get no credit for Jermaine Dye because he was successful earlier. On another post you said if Dice K came to the Sox and was effective you would have to give Cooper credit. Dice K has had success before. How is that consistent?

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 10:30 AM) Because Dick Allen asked for proof of people around baseball talking up Cooper. The Yankees attempting to acquire him is proof of that. They attempted to talk to him. There's no guarantee they would have signed him. They gave Rothschild $2 million for 3 years. How much better are they now? How much better is the Cubs offense under Jaramillo? What happened to Leo Mazzone and the Orioles pitching staff when he bolted Atlanta and was thought of as the premier pitching coach? What makes coaches good pitching coaches and good hitting coaches are good pitchers and good hitters.

Anytime you operate on a budget like the Sox and publicly proclaim how tight money is, like the Sox, when you give a player $56 million, it is a huge gamble. The Sox win some, like when they paid Konerko, and lose some, like Peavy and Dunn and Rios.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 08:12 AM) Why don't the New York Yankees want to interview Greg Walker to be their hitting coach? Why did the Sox deny permission to speak to Cooper if he wasn't seen as an overall "plus" to the organization? Konerko and Rowand were pretty good before they ever became starters for the White Sox. Both were high draft picks. AJ Pierzynski had already been an All-Star with the Twins. Jermaine Dye was a consistent 24-30 homer guy when he was healthy. The only reason they were able to get him so cheaply was because of the broken leg and concerns about his diminished range playing the outfield every day. So, let's say we credit Walker with Lillbridge, Morel and DeAza. The counterargument....we'll name 12-15 pitchers who were basically given up for dead by their organizations and who made significant impacts for the Chicago White Sox. Konerko is the only one who has steadily improved. Quentin and Ramirez both have regressed from 2008. So have Danks and Floyd. That's yet another big reason we're nowhere close to first place, all the other blatant weaknesses nothwithstanding. Do you really believe that trading Hudson had more to do with Cooper than KW? Using the same logic, Cooper was a miracle worker to get what he got out of Brandon McCarthy...preventing him from fallling apart physically until we could make the trade for the more durable Danks. The Beckham situation might be 100% on Gordon, for all we know. We do know that what they're doing simply isn't working or Gordon isn't listening or capable of taking what they're practicing and applying it consistently in game situations. If there are enough players in that category, usually the coach is changed before you trade or give away $75-100 million worth of investment. Maybe the majority of this team has tuned out KW, Ozzie, the entire coaching staff, who knows? At this point, I'll give up Cooper or Buehrle if it means Guillen, Walker and KW are all gone, too. Really, nobody can be blamed or praised for anything because coaches are just facilitators and not responsible for the performance on the field...until it becomes easier to fire them than to replace the entire roster. First off the New York Yankees weren't looking for a hitting coach. Secondly, the Yankees hired Larry Rothschild, so he must be the second greatest pitching coach in history. I have no idea what role Cooper played with the Hudson trade. I do know they said that Cooper had been dying to work with Jackson, and Jackson was pretty good with the Sox, however, you were saying Morel was struggling and if Walker had the answers, why did it take so long? I just countered with Hudson, because he wasn't very impressive before he was traded and suddenly became unhittable, and even had some comments about how they do things differently in AZ. Your posts are just the typical Don Cooper is responsible for all great things by pitchers, and anything that goes wrong is clearly not his problem vs. Greg Walker is at fault if anything goes wrong with the hitters but if they are doing well its because at one time they were highly touted or have had success elsewhere. Its been argued too much. The bottom line is they are and always have been looked at differently. Its amazing the Sox are 9th in the AL in ERA. That's not WS material. The good news is Walker is out and next year we will see a new hitting coach and the White Sox offense will take off just like the Cubs offense did when they brought in the HOF hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo.

QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:29 AM) Good point regarding Coop not getting scrutinized as closely as Walker. IIRC Peavy's injury was partially blamed by not warming up properly, why isn't that blamed on Cooper? If it was a hitter not taking BP, Walker would be run out of town. So maybe a complete cleaning house is in order. Let the next manager bring in a completely new staff. For the record, I'm not blaming Cooper for Peavy's injury, but I clearly remember the game when that lat detached. That particular day, he maybe threw 15 pitches in the bullpen before the game. My friend and I were astonished. I don't know if it was because he was in pain and knew something was wrong or what. I also don't know if the lat was partially detatched at the time or it became detatched all at once. But the night Peavy called it a season in 2010, he wasn't in the bullpen more than 2 or 3 minutes before the game.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 09:43 PM) Konerko, Thome (Hall of Fame track before he arrived), AJP (had put up OPS numbers elsewhere than he has in a "hitter's park", Dye (what did Walker do to fix him besides KW simply signing a talented guy who was injured?), CLee (really?), Magglio (double really?), Crede (maybe), Iguchi (he was already an established veteran in Japan, unless you can find some direct quotes attributing his success to any work with Walker), Everett (he was a much better hitter with other teams before he came to Chicago), Ramirez (once again...based on reputation/expectations, but he has regressed since his rookie year and claiming Ramirez is a lot like criticizing Walker now because Viciedo hasn't hit for any power in 2011), Rowand (including Crede and Rowand is a lot like listing Danks-Floyd-Quentin-Ramirez in the KW curriculum vitae while conveniently skipping everything which has happened the last 3 years as if it didn't exist)[/i] How has Alexei Ramirez improved as a hitter since 2008? He pulls nearly every ball to the left side of the infield. He can't bunt. He's not a good situational hitter, taking nearly the same approach from AB to AB and no matter what the count is. A guy with his speed and ability hitting into so many double plays? He's been the most frustrating player (after Beckham/Dunn/Rios) to watch offensively this season. He's left perhaps more important runners in key situations in scoring position than any Sox hitter not in the aforementioned AXIS OF EVIL. As far as credit goes, Walker deserves SOME for Morel. But you can just as easily argue that he didn't get Brent to take the approach he's currently using when the games actually mattered or counted. If you look at his career history, he's always adjusted and improved at every level in the 2nd half of each season, albeit much more quickly than he did this year (obviously, the majors is the biggest jump). That seems more to do with Morel as a baseball player and his baseball IQ than anything to do with Walker per se. Your bolded part just proves that Walker could only be average in your mind if everyone is succesful. Konerko gives him credit for fixing him. So did Rowand. AJP was pretty damn good. If Jermanine Dye was a 40 homer guy, the Sox probably wouldn't have been able to sign him for $5 million. Ramirez has been a lot better than projected. The one confirmed scout that was on here when he signed said he was Omar Infante with less power. You are just proving that if guys hit, its because they hit before. If they don't hit, its because of Walker, which is totally opposite of how pitching is viewed. Has Floyd regressed from 2008? And maybe his 2008 was just growing up as is ERA with the Sox in 2007 was over 5.00. Danks wasn't so hot this year. Javy Vazquez sucked 2 of the 3 years he was here, then went to Atlanta and was awesome. Wasn't Contreras a star in Cuba? Using your Morel argument, why didn't Cooper get what AZ got out of Hudson right away and save the Sox some money? Hudson was pretty good with them right away. Every little bit of success a pitcher has with the Sox is credited to Cooper. For hitters, they have a minor league history of getting better, they have had success elsewhere, its just guys adjusting to the major leagues, it has nothing to do with Walker. Fine. I would just like you to be consistent. That's all I've ever asked. If you can give Morel all the credit for adjusting, shouldn't you be giving Beckham all the blame for not? If guys hit elsewhere before so Walker gets no credit if they do well here, then when they get out of slumps or figure stuff out is on them. Correct? So really Dunn and Rios have had success elsewhere, Rios even had success here for a little while. It therefore can't be on Walker they can't hit now. He doesn't get credit for keeping others hitting or snapping out of slumps every player goes through, he shouldn't be blamed if they can't snap out of it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 09:46 PM) If anything, that would argue the minor league coaches helped the most to build his success and when he eventually failed and the league adjusted to him, Walker didn't have any answers until halfway through 2010 and none this year. By the way, DET really seemed to go on a tear when their "beloved" pitching coach was fired mid-season. It doesn't always help as a rule, but quite a few times it does. How much did it help Detroit's pitching? I would think acquiring Fister was probably the best tonic. Porcello, Penny, Scherzer, haven't had dramatic improvement. Verlander is Verlander, I don't think he became any better. Detroit can hit, I don't know what that has to do with the pitching coach.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 09:21 PM) Not following. I think you just contradicted your argument... Why is it a contradiction? Just because a guy is hitting well in AAA, doesn't mean it rolls over to the major leagues. There are a lot of people that hit well in the minors that couldn't hit in the majors. He's hit well in the minors before, it didn't translate. All of Cooper's projects have done well in the minor leagues. The fact is you have to do well in the minor leagues to be called up to the majors. Its funny how it works. If Brent Morel's Sept is not a mirage, he just figured it out on his own. If Gavin Floyd's 2008 wasn't a mirage, its because Don Cooper fixed him. If Phil Humber pitches like the 4th or 5th starter he didn't pitch for elsewhere, Don Cooper made it happen. If Alejandro De Aza consistently hits .320 this season, Greg Walker did nothing, he was going to do that, he figured it out on his own or some minor league hitting coach got through to him. It can't be Walker, a caller into Rongey says he sucks, some posters on Soxtalk says he sucks, and Dan Berstein says he sucks. Therefore, he sucks. If Konerko loves him and Rowand loves him, those guys know nothing. Listen to the talk shows. That's where real baseball is spoken.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 08:20 PM) He hit .302 with the Knights in a full year in 2010 (.366 OBP, .800 OPS), and was hitting .322 (.378/.871) in 2011. He was tearing the cover off the ball. Morel did well in AAA, Beckham did well in AAA, so if it automatically just rolls over...................................please explain.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 07:38 PM) No he simply did not. He got hurt. That's why they waived him? Get real. I'll say the same about Humber.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 05:38 PM) Way to change the goalposts there. Didn't change any goalposts. Greg Walker is a fine hitting coach. No one has left and become the HOFer a lot of people believe every hitter on the Sox should be. He has had a lot of success with others. You choose to look the other way because he yelled at your boy. That's fine. Walker will be gone. I just hope KW is smart enough to know that they isn't going to automatically make guys who haven't hit start to hit. You're slurping Cooper about Humber. Its only fair then to give Walker credit for De Aza, a guy that failed elsewhere. I don't know how much Walker has to do with his success. I'm being honest. You just assume Cooper has EVERYTHING to do with Humber's. I find that funny. If you're giving the pitching coach credit for any pitcher who does better than expected, it is reasonable to give the hitting coach the same recognition.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 05:30 PM) It's usually indirect. The last one was KW and that's the one that matters most. And what did KW say? He didn't say anything about Walker just about Beckham. KW and Walker argued because Walker is old school and didn't think KW mentioning things like that about Beckham in the press was the cool thing to do. KW acted like the child he is and told Walker to go home, just like he told Ozzie to go home last year. He's 0-2.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 04:48 PM) If he was really that good, why did no one else get it out of him until now? What really are you getting out of him? He's 4th or 5th starter material, like Bruce Chen. Occassionally they will throw decently for a season. You are absolutely postive the only reason Humber is having any success is Don Cooper. What has Cooper done to make him better? Name me the most prominent baseball person who has said anything negative about the job Walker does? Walker yelled at Kenny so you don't like him. It wasn't long ago you used to have smart ass comments for anyone that said anything negative about Ozzie, but Kenny doesn't like Ozzie anymore, so neither do you. Walker is far better than most give him credit. That is the bottom line. You can say he sucks all you want, but Konerko, Thome, AJP, Dye, CLee, Magglio, Crede, Iguchi, Everett, Ramirez, Rowand show otherwise, and we are still waiting for a bust with the Sox to become a star some place else, because face it, there has to be a Don Cooper of hitting out there somewhere, and if you read this board regularly you will know once Walker leaves, so does any problem with the offense.

I actually heard something today that boggled my mind. Ozzie and Rios for Logan Morrison. If KW could make that trade, he would deserve an extension.

I remember in the late 80s Michael McCaskey had a gem about his goal was to have the Bears always be good enough, maybe not good enough to win it all, just good enough to keep it interesting. It appears, and it shocks me, KW is turning into Michael McCaskey without the Harvard education, and please no one mention KW's Stanford "education". He spent one semester there on a football scholarship. Calling him Stanford educated or a Stanford grad is worse than calling Allen Iverson a Georgetown grad. If the Sox lose another game this season, they will finish 3 of the last 5 seasons under .500, but they spent some time in first place so I guess everything is OK.

Maybe they could work that quote into next year's ad campaign, Hey we were in 1st place after opening day. KW has gone from making the playoffs isn't good enough, you must win, to spending time in first place at some point in the season is sign he's a success. This team needs to re-boot.

He failed to mention all the time they spent in 2nd and 3rd place in perhaps, at least for the past 10 years, the worst division in baseball.

Saying he should be patted on the back for having a team that has spent time in first place but finished 3rd is garbage. KW needs to go.

QUOTE (SpainSOXfan09 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 01:08 AM) New article up by Van Dyke, sorted of related but the quote at the bottom really killed me by KW. Says he doesn't really see a reason to change the direction of the ship with regards to Ozzie. Oh boy!! 2012 here we come with more drama!! Link: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/break...0,2605712.story White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said he was tired of talking about his job status every day – even though he did again as the last homestand opened Friday – and general manager Kenny Williams apparently agrees. “I’m just listening right now,” Williams said when asked what was happening with Guillen. “We have one week to go in the season and we’ll get to all of that soon enough. No need to rush it.” Asked if he, Guillen and chairman Jerry Reinsdorf would sit down soon, Williams said: “I would rather do it privately. Whether or not we have plans to sit down or when, how, what the ultimate result is going to be is dangerous (speculation). And it’s unnecessary. I know it hasn’t been exactly private, but I think it’s better served if it is. “That it’s a more respectful way of doing business.” Guillen is signed through next season, but is seeking an extension. It is possible Reinsdorf will tell Guillen he isn’t getting one and he either manages that last year or quits and goes to Florida. Williams still has great influence with Reinsdorf and, in fact, recommended the coaching staff get contract extensions after a disastrous 2007 season. “I’m not one that easily will give up the ship and change course of direction,” Williams said. “I’m in the listening phase right now and that’s all I can do. We’ll see where we end up as a result. Ozzie’s got some ideas that I think he’s still developing. We’ll see.” A couple of days ago, KW said it wasn't his call. KW and OG are both speaking out of both sides of their mouths. I also believe they both know exactly what is up regarding this offseason and it seems pretty obvious the Sox don't want to pay Ozzie if he's not managing the White Sox. So they probably are going to try to make it hard for him to come back for his final year of his contract by waxing some of his friends and saying no to any extension talk. It will be up to Ozzie. The Marlins aren't going to negotiate with the White Sox over Ozzie if there is nothing to negotiate Ozzie has to quit first. If he doesn't, JR either has to bring him back or fire him. At this point I'm guessing they are praying to JR's God and the real God he quits. (That's just in reference to Ozzie's quote. I really don't think he meant anything by it fwiw)

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 02:33 AM) Again, using De Aza to defend Walker is a joke. And no one's laughing. Or everyone is. It's a terrible argument, is my point. He's kept it going which he didn't in FL which got him waived. If he was hitting .220 it would be on Walker. Personally, I don't know how much of De Aza's success is because of Walker, just like I don't think Humber would have a 7.00 ERA if he were a White Sox and Nardi Contreras was the pitching coach. He is a little further removed from surgery and added a pitch before he came to the Sox, and its not like he's a Cy Young candidate. Weren't we also told the Sox, and I'm assuming Cooper but could be wrong, recognized a simple fix with Zach Stewart as one of the reasons they got him? But as long as the reason any White Sox pitcher has success that he didn't have with another team is soley because of the pitching coach, its only fair Greg Walker gets a feather in his cap if the same thing occurs with a hitter. The problem is most White Sox fans brains are programmed into believing pitchers without Don Cooper would never have an ERA under 5.50 or a WHIP under 2.00 and hitters away from Greg Walker hit at least .300 with an .850 OPS. I just have a hard time believing its Greg Walker's fault when Gordon Beckham swings at a pitch over his head. Everyone who thinks it is probably has blamed someone else for all their shortcomings. The Sox pitching staff is now tied for 9th in team ERA in the AL. And if you think what I post is a joke, is it really anymore of a joke than the people who post the reason why the Sox were slow to call up Viciedo is they are afraid Walker will get to him or say Walker will ruin everyone? Its his final week, and he's done a lot better job than most realize.

The only way to get rid of them is to take on an equally bad or even worse contract.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 07:05 PM) There have been way more than Floyd and Humber. Humber may have been a #3 pick, but how many pitching coaches failed to get him to do anything at all? He is 28 now, not 18 or 22. That is the whole point. Other than Humber, Cooper never has had a #3 pick. Humber only bolsters the argument for the job that Cooper has done because of his previous history of being mediocre to awful. I'm glad you think Humber is headed to the HOF, but he was a top prospect who had elbow surgery. He was the prize for Johan Santana. We'll see how he does next season, he was a lot better than most believed he would be this year. Floyd was a #4 pick I believe.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 03:50 PM) I'm thinking we should also be proactive and lock up Peavy to a 3 year, 45 million dollar extension. If he can pitch like the grinder he is next year, the former Cy Young Winner will get more money on the open market. Can you imagine how much money a team like the Marlins would pay Peavy? He'd be a great mentor for their young pitchers, as well as a terrific piece for them to have when they make the postseason. They should also think about extending Dunn. Now would be the time. You would probably get a good bargain if you tacked on a couple more years.

QUOTE (sin city sox fan @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) I don't think the White Sox can afford to lose our leader and Ozzie must be signed to a long term contract (6-8 years minimum) immediately. Let's hope talk of a new contract is going on behind the scenes and something is announced this week. Come on JR......make the first step today towards bringing the World Series back to the southside. Secure Ozzie as our manager longterm and keep our greatest asset. Fire KW, kick Ozzie up to the GM seat, and maybe throw a President title his way as gratitude for 2005. Name Joey Cora the new manager, and let Oney become the bench coach.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 07:56 AM) By your own standards you disqualified everyone you submitted, so you are back to nothing. Top picks and prospects don't count right? So the four guys who you mention are all out. Walker has nothing. That leaves Cooper way ahead. They count, but you're argument is Gordon Beckham. When you pop off about Gavin Floyd, look what Cooper "did" with Floyd when he was 24, and then try again. I'm just mirroring your argument, you asked me for names, I gave you names. I asked you for top 3 in the draft position players KW has picked up, and you have no response. You go on and on about Humber and ask about a waiver wire claimed hitter that has done anything. I give you De Aza.