Dick Allen

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 09:50 PM) Milkman, Kitekrazy hit the nail on the head, people have been saying its common sense that Greg Walker will be gone for longer than I can remember. So to act as if its a "done deal" is just ignoring all historical evidence. I personally believe that Walker will not be back, but I wouldnt be so bold to guarantee it. DA, Another argument is how many Sox hitters went on to other teams to drastically improve under another hitting coach? I just dont think the Sox have had a lot of offensive players who have been complete hitters. And how many went to other teams and really improved? One I can think of, that was Swisher, who didn't work with Walker, but I suppose we can blame Walker in a Ms. Cleo sort of way. Rowand had a big second year in Philadelphia, but guess who he worked with the winter before that year, and that year was very similar to his 2004? I also agree that Walker being gone is a foregone conclusion, but if anyone thinks that will cure their offensive woes, they are going to be dissappointed.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 08:43 PM) But shouldn't Tim Laker be more credited with DeAza's success than Walker? He worked with him in Charlotte (correct me if I'm wrong) for parts of two seasons...there's no way you could argue Alejandro has had more exposure to Walker than Laker. Contreras got hurt and got old. Not sure how to blame Cooper for that one. His career in NY was to the point where they had to subsidize a large part of his Sox salary. I would think if Cooper had someone like Dice-K Matsuzaka to work with next season and he won the Cy Young (just throwing out a hypothetical) that Cooper would deserve a ton of credit, yes? I also don't think it's especially fair to criticize Don Cooper for Jake Peavy this season...the guy's coming off a once-in-a-lifetime injury that's never been surgically-repaired (for a pitcher) in history. So who's to say that Jake and Cooper aren't absolutely maxxing out the best he can give? It's easy to say look at his 2007 stats in PETCO in a weaker hitting division (outside of the Dodgers) when he had a 95 MPH fastball and devastating slider. He doesn't have anything out there...for about 50-60% of his starts this season, just pitching on competitiveness and guile. This is the problem, There's always a reason not to blame Cooper when a player's performance isn't up to par, but Soxtalk and every other message board and talk radio callers all blame Walker when the offense isn't there. Rudy Jaramillo was the greatest hitting coach of all time. The Cubs are 14th in the NL with RISP. Does Rudy have a bad plan, or does Rudy have bad hitters? As for Contreras, no one was a bigger fan than me on this site, but to give Cooper all the credit for his success is pretty shortsided, and if you do, you must give him blame when the performance slips. Personally, I think El Duque was the reason he became unhittable as El Duque begged him to pitch like he pitched in Cuba, he had changed his style. He switched and became an ace. Face it, at the trade deadline in 2005 he wasn't so great, the consensus on this board was to trade him for AJ Burnett. Thank God that didn't happen. One interesting thing about Contreras is when he became a free agent after the Sox traded him to Colorado, he stated wherever he went he wanted to take the Colorado pitching coach with him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 08:29 PM) So you have nothing. Kiss your analogy good-bye. I just showed you a lot. Again, name one top 3 draft pick position player KW picked up on waivers? You are making Humber out to be God. He's been good, but he's 9-9 with an ERA near 4.00 which would probably be higher if he wasn't hit on the head and sat down a couple of weeks. De Aza was a waiver claim, as I mentioned and he's hitting .326. The person who has nothing is you. Kiss your analogy good bye.

QUOTE (MAX @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 08:12 PM) I hadn't noticed but I'm willing to bet that this is going to drive me crazy now. At first I thought is was my computer which goes into some sort of sleep mode when you haven't been on it for a few minutes. But it is annoying, unbelievably annoying when its beeping and it isn't White Sox crossing the plate.

I hate the little bell that goes off now when a run is scored on CSN.

I'm very confident, all finances being equal, the ladies would find me a better looking guy than Asdrubal.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:38 PM) And the most that could be named for Walker are about four guys, despite his getting more guys to work with than Cooper ever year. Guys that were quit on by major league baseball. Top pick or not, these are guys no one did anything with. Again, who is the minor league signing that Walker has turned into an everyday player? Who is the waiver pick up that walker turned into an every day player? Who is the 25 man roster casualty that Walker fixed? Cooper has a track record, which is why teams want him. Walker has pretty much done nothing compared to cooper. Hell if you want to discount for being top picks, PK was a first round pick, CQ was a first round pick, Rowand was a second round pick, and Uribe was a big time bonus baby out of Latin America. Who is the top 3 pick position player that KW signed to a minor league contract? De Aza was a waiver claim, he's hitting .320 Again, you wanted examples, I gave you similar examples. Caufield said Quentin was great but regressed, I pointed out most of Cooper's projects also regressed. Facts are facts. Walker is a lot better than the average Sox fan thinks. You remember every hitting failure, but forget every pitching failure. I really don't want Cooper fired. I think he's fine. I just would like this board to treat him the same way Greg Walker gets treated. Maybe you will see how silly you are after a while.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:23 PM) Top 4 picks that no one else could fix. So where are Greg Walker's success stories? Joe Borcahrd? Josh Fields? The closest thing he has is Paul Konerko, who already had put up a .300 ba, a 30 HR season, and a 100 RBI season before Walker ever took over. Who does Walker get credit for to make this analogy work? No one was able to fix those guys. If they had success elsewhere, I could see where you could say Walker was lacking. But that's not the case. Its like teaching an English class and having Ozzie Guillen for a student. If you go by the finish product, its not necessarily a reflection on the teacher. But you're right, if Humber pitches well, Cooper taught him everything he knows. If he gives up 4 to a AAA Cleveland team, its because he's just not good. But if the Sox get shut down by Bruce Chen, the guy having a better year than Floyd and Danks, its because Greg Walker has no plan.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:29 PM) Konerko had the one bad year when Walker took over. As I said in teh other thread, PK had already had a .300 season, a 30 homer season, and a 100 RBi season at that point. Rowand's best season was in Philly, right before FA. Uribe had the great year his first year here, and then desended by over .200 OPS before rebounding in SF. You wanted his Loaisa. Didn't Loaisa fall apart or am I mistaken?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:24 PM) But that's only maybe 3 names. If someone wants to claim Morel or Lillibridge as great successes...you're welcome to assert that. We haven't even mentioned the likes of Matt Thornton, Jose Contreras, Jon Garland, Jenks, etc. Quentin was one of the DBacks' top prospects at one point. He wasn't to the level of a D'Angelo Jimenez or Julio Ramirez who was simply another busted prospect. And the thing is Walker couldn't take credit for building on that success or Quentin improving he staying at a level comparable to 2008. He regressed. Weren't Humber, Floyd, Thornton, Jenks and Garland top prospects at one point? The Yankees gave Contreras $32 million, he had to be pretty good, considering Alexei got $4 million and now everyone is saying he is hitting exactly what was projected. Floyd has regressed since 2008, Jenks regressed, Garland regressed, Loaisa regressed, Contreras regressed, what's the point? Thornton is Cooper's masterpiece, without a doubt. The one guy he fixed who actually stayed fixed.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:15 PM) Like Gordon Beckham? Cooper made Lance Broadway a stud. Aaron Poreda is a HOFer. Please. Humber and Floyd were top 4 picks I believe and Floyd doesn't even have a league average ERA.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:12 PM) I kind of asked this in the other thread, but I'll ask it here too... Who is Greg Walkers Esteban Loiaza that he plucked from a minor league deal to the all-star game? Who is his Phil Humber that he picked up off of waivers that he turned into a solid starting hitter in his first year here after failing at all other stops? Who is his Gavin Floyd that he turned around from awful and down on himself into an everyday player with solid numbers? Who is his Sergio Santos that he literally taught how to hit from nothing? The whole silliness of why doesn't Cooper catch grief when a pitcher does bad is because he as a history of doing some amazing things. Greg Walker doesnt' have nearly that history. KW doesn't acquire those players offensively, but Carlos Quentin was a guy who probably was the MVP in 2008 if he doesn't get hurt. He made Aaron Rowand a ton of money. When he took over in 2003 Paulie was hitting like Adam Dunn without the whiffs, and as long as you're talking one year wonders, Uribe was much better offensively in 2003 with the Sox than he was with Colorado in 2002.

Brooks Boyer should tell Hawk to stiffle the "race for second place" crap. If second place in the AL Central is any reason to celebrate even a little bit, no wonder the Sox are a dissappointment.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:07 PM) And if he wants to do that, he probably needs to answer something like which hitters have been brought in off of a minor league contract and turned into decently regarded hitters and all-stars? How many high first round draft picks has KW brought in offensively? Quentin was one, and he did OK.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 12:35 PM) Coop gets a good amount of praise because his predecessor was abysmal. You can not complain about the staff results as a whole under Cooper especially compared to Walker. Yet Buerhle had just as much if not more success under Nardi Contreras. I don't see where Adam Dunn is Walker's fault but Billy Koch wouldn't be Cooper's.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 21, 2011 -> 09:38 PM) Does Walker deserve credit here? Absolutely not. Only if a hitter fails is it proper to give Walker "credit". Now if Morel was a pitcher and pitching in Sept. like he has been hitting, you know it would be because of the fabulous work of one Mr. Don Cooper.

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Sep 21, 2011 -> 09:18 PM) Kotsay/Thome, yes. but let's not forget that both of Kenny's kiddos are playing in the sox system. One was picked wayyyyyyyy too high. One of Ozzie's kids played A ball for a period and then got bounced. then the sox failed to pick Ozzie's other son, not once but twice. I think that -- along with the natural bruising that comes with two huge alpha male egos -- was also a major factor. be gone -- both of them. Neither one is worth the aggravation any longer. I think Sox fans would be happier with a more cerebral approach -- like a Friedman. I agree they both need to be gone, but to be fair only one of KW's sons plays in the White Sox organization, and while he was drafted way too high, when he was Ozney's age when the Sox drafted Ozney, KW's kid was selected by the Sox in the 36th round and didn't sign. If Ozney was a top 3 round prospect like the Guillens believe, its hard to imagine why all the other organizations passed him over 100 times. Even the Marlins didn't feel Ozney was worth drafting.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 20, 2011 -> 09:03 PM) Yes, Dave Magadan is getting a fair amount of grief for Crawford, he's tried to rebuild his swing but it is being described as "mechanically unsound". And if kw traded Beckham for scraps after his first 30 at bats...no one would have blamed walker, they'd have been furious with Kenny. Just like I was about the hudson trade. Magadan is getting grief and the Red Sox lead the world in runs, slugging, OPS, and second in batting average? Yeah, he sucks.

I know JR has a special place in his heart for Ozzie, but I wonder if he feels betrayed at all with Ozzie using the media angling for a new contract and USING Cowley as his mouthpiece.

The best thing that happened for us but the worst thing that happened for their relationship was winning the WS. Their egos couldn't take the other one getting credit for the victory, and it deteriorated and deteriorated. The Thome thing hurt, Oney's tweets didn't help much and Ozney not being picked in the first few rounds hurt, but Oney wouldn't have been tweeting what he was tweeting at the beginning if their relationship was solid.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 20, 2011 -> 09:32 PM) 98 would be about Oney's IQ... He'd get a 98 on an IQ test, only if he guessed correctly on a lot of questions.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 20, 2011 -> 09:26 PM) Just think if he leaves.. This place will have an entire new scapegoat to pin Kenny's failures on next year. I hope JR fires them both. Why does Ozzie deserve to stay? If the answer is 2005, then Kenny deserves to stay. The reason..........2005.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 20, 2011 -> 09:20 PM) I think we just have 2 guys, Quentin and Pierre, who stand very close to the plate Beckham has been hit 12 times. Quentin will help a team lead the category, but the Sox never retaliate. There was no question Konerko was drilled on purpose tonight and he was pissed about it. It would have been nice to dust someone after that. Might have saved Anorexei a bruise.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 20, 2011 -> 09:19 PM) I see, so he might well be so good you don't want him at leadoff. Clearly that would be a bad thing. Ideally he'd like the guy who makes the most outs in the league leading off. This guy has to either be Cowley or be related to Ozzie.

QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Sep 20, 2011 -> 09:11 PM) Why? Did Juan Pierre just get in a time machine and emerge 6 years younger? Considering he would be replacing 2011 Juan Pierre you'd be a fool not to believe that's what you were referring to. Nice try though. Not only that, but if Pierre took a 50% paycut, he'd still be making 10 times what they would have to pay De Aza.