Dick Allen

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 06:43 PM) Santana did have innings in the minors, as did Buehrle IIRC. In 1999 Santana threw 160 innings the only time in the minors he threw at least 100. Buehrle threw 98 and 118 +51 pn the major league level. So they both jumped almost 70 innings. Buerhle jumped another 50 the next season. Sale had 135 last year. I'm sure its not going to hurt him, and if it does, he wasn't going to be much anyway. Other than helping the White Sox most, putting Sale in the bullpen also can aid another thing that is very important. His confidence. Ozzie picks his match ups. As a starter, he's going to face a line up stacked with right handed hitters. If he has confidence he'll be fine. If he doesn't, he get knocked around.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 06:00 PM) Link Buehrle was 21, Lowe was 29, Smoltz was 38 and had surgery. Ryan Dempster threw 206 innings after 4 years in the bullpen. He was 31. Chances are Sale, like any other pitcher, is going to get hurt anyway. Francisco Liriano started in the bullpen then became a starter the same season, and got injured. Johan Santana went from 43 to 108 to 158 to 228 in his early 20s and didn't have a problem. The good pitchers, it means nothing. Its the average guys who have career years and are suddenly pitching in the 7th and 8th innings when they used to get knocked out in the 5th or 6th and the next season they come back down to earth ala Esteban Loaisa. And if that study is accurate, Sale is already screwed. In college he went 36 IP to 86 IP to 102 IP + 33 professional IP.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) It will retard his growth towards being a 200 inning pitcher. There are pretty clear studies that show how the growth of a pitchers arm needs to be done. Forget 2014, we don't have starters for 2012. If Sale hasn't pushed into the 160 to 170 inning range this year, he won't be ready to be a 6 inning pitcher for 2012 when we need him as a starter. Do you have a link to these studies? A few of the more famous relievers turned starters are Derek Lowe, who went from spot starter to closer to starter. His first year as a full time starter 21 wins 220 IP. Smoltz was a starter turned reliever for 5 years. Went back to starting at age 38 and threw 230 IP. Mark Buerhle work mostly out of the bullpen his first year with the White Sox in 2000. In 2001 he threw 221 innings, which is more than he's thrown in any season since 2005.

Put him in the rotation if a starter is needed long term. If its just short term, keep him in the bullpen.

If Roberto Alomar doesn't get in on the first ballot, I don't think Frank does. But like Alomar, unless some report comes out that shows Frank juiced, he's a 100 percent lock to get in.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 03:17 PM) The Twins drew 1.1 million more fans than we did last year. In 2009 they drew about 130,000 more, but trailed us by about $30 million in total revenue. If you take that difference of a million fans times $30 a person, you make up the difference. Put it at a more realistic $50 a person, and they made about $20 million more than us. We won't know the numbers until April, but I bet the Twins made a significant amount more in revenue that we did last year. The Twins payroll was over $100 million by the end of last season. I don't think the Pohlad sons are as frugal as their father. Another thing to consider, until now, the Twins were receiving revenue sharing money. Now, I read, they will be paying in. The article I read claimed about a $25 million difference. I'm sure they made a nice profit last season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 02:19 PM) His splits in 2009 are ridiculous. He had 3 months, June July and August, where he gave up OPS's of 1.084, 1.035, and .935, bracketed by april with an OPS of .458 against him, August and Sept. of .642 adn .462 against him. Basically, he had a stretch where he was abjectly awful, bracketed by stretches where he was great. And that stretch in May where he was bad began with him missing time at the end of april/beginning of May with a shoulder injury of some sort. They sent him down to AAA in July, and he came back up and was right back to being lights-out. His splits in 2010 are pretty similar, except June, July and August is when he shined, although June he sported a nice ERA but his WHIP was horrid. A lot of walks but they easily could be intentional. July and August, he made himself millions. Obviously, going month to month with relievers isn't an exact science as its only about 11 or 12 innings a month. I was in Minneapolis in July and can tell you Twins fans held Crain in the exact same regard Linebrink was held around here. They expected bad things to happen when he entered the game. Maybe he's turned it around, or maybe he put together a pretty sweet salary drive.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 01:47 PM) Oh come on man, that's an impossible task, because you're asking me to prove a hypothetical. I can say people like Joba Chamberlain, Brandon McCarthy, Jonathan Papelbon, all of whom started out in the pen and never caught on as starters, but I can't prove that putting them in the bullpen was the single thing that hurt them. Exactly, which is why you cannot say that putting Sale in the bullpen will hurt him in the future as a starter. There is zero conclusive evidence its ever hurt anyone. He excelled in the bullpen last season. It was a small sample size and most of the games didn't matter, but the object is to win in 2011. It behoves the Sox to put Sale in the spot they think makes them the better team, not worry about his draft value, because pitching is pitching. It makes no sense that one year in the bullpen is going to cause anyone to fail as a starter. Most top of the line relievers were failed starters at some point. Another guy who went starter (although more of a spot starter), reliever, starter was Derek Lowe. He made a lot of money.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 01:37 PM) If the Braves had had the choice of where to put Smoltz, they'd have put him in the rotation. And you don't know that 1 year in the bullpen won't be a major setback, just like I don't know that it will be. I just feel like you're absolutely refusing to acknowledge that there is any risk inherent to his career by using him this way You're refusing to acknowledge that putting him in the bullpen can be anything but bad. You're so concerned with first round draft pick "value." Please give me examples of pitchers who would have been stars, but were ruined because teams decided to put them in the bullpen. You would have a hard time proving that was the reason.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 01:20 PM) You know why Smoltz was able to do it? Because right after his first surgery, his doctor told him that it would be less tough on his arm to limit his innings, so they moved him to the bullpen. But then, a couple years later, they told him that things had reversed, and with the condition of his arm, warming up 60+ times a year would be more likely to re-injure it, so that's when he reverted back to starting. Smoltz did it because he had to in order to follow doctor's advice. My point wasn't necessarily protecting Sale. My point was Sale in the bullpen makes the Sox a better team. Smoltz relieved 4 or 5 years, and he came back into the rotation and was fine. 1 year in the bullpen won't kill Sale.

All pitchers are ticking time bombs. JR used to have a rule, no more than 3 years for any pitcher. He was going to make an exception for Alex Fernandez, because of his near perfect mechanics. Alex signed a 5 year contract with Florida when he was 26. He pitched one full season with the Marlins, 2 partials and 2 years he was DL'd the entire season. The point is Sale's mechanics aren't ideal. Several teams passed on drafting him, and it probably had everything to do with his mechanics. Eventually, like most pitchers, he's probably going to hurt his arm somehow. The Sox should just put him in the situation they feel helps the team win the most games.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 01:11 PM) Well...I certainly can give reasons...having a guy like Sale warm up and pitch 60-70 times in short bursts, where he's coming out and throwing all fastballs every time, could easily be harder on his arm than long innings. It just works differently for some people. Moving them to the bullpen isn't necessarily "protection". The one thing I just don't want to do, long-term, is sacrifice the fact that his arm is already accustomed to throwing a good number of innings per year, because then if you try to move his innings back up, you need to re-adjust his arm. Bouncing around like that can be another bad thing for an arm. Smoltz was able to do it. Its not always for protection, but one thing Ozzie is pretty good at is not overusing his bullpen. Pitchers get hurt and sit out seasons and come back and throw a lot of innings all the time. A year in the bullpen isn't going to ruin him. If he fails, he would have failed anyway.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 12:47 PM) How about Sale needs to be in the bullpen because it makes the 2011 White Sox better. This isn't project prospect, we're trying to win the World Series. Exactly, and the logic is, if Sale has the ingredients to be a top of the rotation starter, a year in the bullpen isn't going to ruin that. If he's in the bullpen in 2011 and is a failed starter in 2012 and beyond, blaming it on a year in the bullpen would be ridiculous.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 12:25 PM) This logic is just silly. Not only are they not even close to the same type of pitcher, but their backgrounds are also totally different. The only reason why you'd compare those two is that they're left-handed. It makes as much sense for me to say "Sale needs to be in the rotation, they put McCarthy in the bullpen in 2006 and it did hurt him". What's it about Sale, who is accustumed to being a starter, but did quite well in a limited time in the bullpen, that is going to kill him if he spends 2011 in the bullpen? It what makes the 2011 White Sox best IMO. And even if he ultimately became a lockdown bullpen guy instead of a #4 or #5 starter, because I doubt ace type guys are ruined spending one year in the bullpen, I don't see where that ultimately kills the Sox first round "value" for him, another argument a lot of people make around here for why he has to be a starter. Considering their history of first round picks, anyone who actually contributes to winning, is better than most.

QUOTE (3E8 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 12:53 PM) Santos fastball velocity by month per http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/index.php April: 95.5 May: 95.5 June: 96.0 July: 95.4 Aug: 95.5 Sept: 95.3 Looks pretty consistent to me. Yes it does. I just go by the games. It seemed to me he was hitting 98 a lot more the beginning of the season. Maybe he wasn't, but the second half of 2010, Sergio Santos wasn't very good. And if the argument is his arm needed strength after throwing 30 innings, considering he'd been pitching for a year and preparing to be a pitcher last offseason, I don't see how anyone could possibly assume he would be go to go for 50-70 solid innings in 2011.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 10:55 AM) He threw 28+ innings in 09, his first year of pitching, plus whatever he did in AZ. Last year he made it up to 51+. I am betting we get a solid year out of him. I know the want is to measure him against other pitchers, but he is a pretty unique case. I know he's unique, but the story, while nice, doesn't get people out. I'm just concerned about the results. His last 21 IP last year were horrendous overall. If his first 21 innings were like that, he probably would have been back in Charlotte and perhaps out of baseball right now or with another organization trying to hold on. I hope he is solid. I'm just saying its not being a pessimist or a gray cloud to question it. There are concerns. The bullpen is still something KW should consider upgrading. Considering past performances and lack of experience, Thornton is the only guy whose performance in 2011 would really shock most if it wasn't above average. Sale needs to be in the bullpen. It didn't hurt Buehrle in 2000. If Sale has the capacity to be a top starter, it won't hurt him in 2011 to work near the end of games.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 10:29 AM) He hit a wall because he is literally building a pitching arm from nothing. He did the same thing the year before, except earlier in the season. If that's true, he fell apart after about 30 IP. I don't know how you can expect him to build up enough arm strength to be totally relied upon.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 10:20 AM) You also can't undervalue how crazy it was for a guy who had virtually no pitching experience to come in and put up the numbers that he did last season. You can say teams got a scouting report on him but you can also just as easily say that he got wore down since you know, he's never pitched before. The guy has a terrific arm and the more he learns how to pitch, the better he's going to be. Santos to be honest, is one of the least of my worries this season, I think he's going to be one of the elite relievers in baseball. Its possible, but its also possible he's hit a wall. He lost a little velocity as the season went along, and if your theory were 100% true, that he's only going to get better, how come he didn't keep improving during the 2010 season as he gained experience. Obviously tools are there for him to be very good, but its also very possible he's just an average guy who has good stuff.

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 08:32 AM) I like him a lot as a LOOGY. The deal doesn't bother me, as that seems to be the market. What bothers me is that he'll be left in to give up big hits to right-handers. I'll set the over/under right now at 4. Ohman's stats vs. LH hitters in 2010, are identical to Scott Linebrink's stats vs. RH hitters in 2010. Considering what they are paying Ohman and what they are giving to Atlanta to pay Linebrink, they basically swapped out a ROOGY for a LOOGY. Unfortunately Linebrink faced a slight majority of LH hitters. If Ohman faces a majority of RH hitters, the results will probably be about the same.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 8, 2011 -> 07:04 PM) All I'm saying is that I don't think we've had this spectacular offseason [think Brewers and Red Sox]. The Dunn signing was fantastic. Only a few on the board are bigger Dunn fans than me. I'm not doing backflips over the Crain and Ohman signings. I'd rather have them then two scrubs, obviously. But they're not putting us over the top. I agree with you that Beckham 'should' bounce back. I have no idea what to expect from A.J. and CQ. And Rios has to be more consistent. He was quite mediocre outside of a very good May. And we have a major question mark at 3B. As far as the pitching goes, we know Peavy's situation. Which is going to put a lot more strain on the rest of the staff and a hell of a lot of pressure on Sale, assuming he starts. Edwin Jackson is just a .500 pitcher to me that will look dominant for stretches and brutal for other stretches. Danks and Buehrle are the constants. And Gavin needs to be more consistent. And bringing back PK. But yeah, like I said to Rowand, I'm not going crazy for signing a couple bullpen guys. Crain was very good last year but just as mediocre the year before that. That's relievers in general. And I don't like the fact that we gave him three years. But that's a separate issue. I certainly didn't start texting all my Sox buddies in big bold 'HEY, WE SIGNED WILL OHMAN TODAY!' Let's put it this way, I don't want him anywhere near the major league team and our starting LF is my mortal enemy. I'm in between. I think this offseason thus far hasn't been as spectacular as some are suggesting. Like you said Dunn was a nice signing, but the others? Pretty blah to me as well. Minnesota never even offered Crain a contract. That has to say something what with their bullpen's mass exodus. Ohman, a former Cub and according to Les Grobstein, not exactly a good clubhouse guy is a loogy, a guy in his 30's who never made more than $1.6 million in a season and was just granted his first mutiyear contract, and we know Ozzie doesn't generally use veterans as loogys. And by some projections, the Sox may have 2 or 3 rookies in the bullpen. That could be scary. I am happy they brought back AJP and Paulie, although I think we will see some whining about Paulie's contract somewhere down the road, and probably justified whining, but they did what they had to do to bring him back. On the other hand, compared to other AL Central teams, their offseaon seems to be a lot better. Detroit doesn't scare me. Cleveland and KC aren't going to do much, and what the heck is going on in Minnesota? I figured they would be due for a little letdown even if they brought their entire team back, but it looks like they are going to lose a lot of productive players. The Sox are sitting pretty right now.

I think Soriano's willingness to set up for the Yankees is all about money. If they didn't say that, eliminating the team that is probably willing and able to pay the most for his services, isn't exactly a bright move. Maybe this is where the Angels finally spend some money, but other than that, what team is going to pay him the money Boras wants besides the Yankees?

QUOTE (Ranger @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 07:21 PM) I look at the overall offense and what it produced over the season, I don't focus on one spot in the order. The Sox were a Top 7 offense in June, Top 5 in July, and the best offense in baseball in August. They lost games they should have won because of the pitching and the failure to hold leads. Of course having Dunn's ability in the lineup makes them a better offense, but that doesn't mean that Kotsay's presence cost them the playoffs last year. If they have Dunn last season, I still don't believe they make the playoffs, because I don't think he alone makes up the 6 games they would've needed. But, I do want people to keep in mind that Konerko benefited greatly by getting days off from the field and the team benefit by him being in the lineup on those days. The idea of being able to rotate somebody into his spot play is a very good idea. I just hope that he stays as healthy this year as he was last year. Just keep an eye out for that in 2011. While its nice to say Konerko benefitted from the extra days off and that was the reason for his big year, its really unlikely. He DH'd 6 more times in 2010 than he did in 2009. Was the reason he hit 11 April homers in 2010 vs. 3 in 2009 because he was anticipating being a DH? The reason for his big year was more likely he was able to keep his injured thumb in check. I doubt the 6 extra games DHing did much for that.The DH experiment was a total failure. $56 million proves even the White Sox think so.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 04:09 PM) Right, but is it why they lost? Nobody was hitting except for Konerko and Rios. A team can't win games when 2 guys are hitting. A team can't win games when 3 guys are hitting, either. The 2010 White Sox did not lose the division because of Mark Kotsay. Their overall DH production was horrid, and was something that even casual baseball fans could see coming from miles away. It was one big reason they didn't win, If you don't think a real DH would have mattered, fine, but then you probably can't think much of the Dunn signing. Apparently KW and JR thought the DH spot was a big problem.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 06:02 PM) Except Hudson did a tad more than just 'hack' it. 7-1, 1.69 ERA, 0.841 WHIP in 11 starts. Oh, yeah, Jackson sported an ERA of 5.16 in the same league. And for those tired of the debate, put my ass on ignore. My rage has returned now that we know the full truth behind the deal. Yet in the AL where they both would be pitching for the White Sox, Jackson sported the much better stats. I give it until June 1 when people realize Hudson although a decent pitcher, isn't exactly Cy Young.

QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 01:23 PM) umm... yea. long story. Clearance from the tower is never an easy thing.