Dick Allen

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 03:57 PM) How is that a la KW? I don't see the Sox getting a big bat from their system this year. 2010, 2011, sure - Beckham, Allen, etc. But who do you bring up now that is a powerful offensive player for 1B/DH or OF? KW said he's filling his holes at P, 3B, 2B and CF from within.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 03:48 PM) Yankees sign Teixera. See Diamond Club thread. Angels now definitely in seach of a bat. According to Rosenthal, they are going to find the bat, a la KW, from within.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 10:41 AM) Basically the whole off-season is in a flux right now until Teixeira signs. After that, I think things are definitely going to pick up, and it could make for a very interesting January around here, to see if we sign the likes of Abreu etc. He's supposed to decide today. Indications are its Boston.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 12:08 PM) Playing a full season, I think BA could hit 15-20 HR, but he'd also hit .210 I think with a sub-Uribe OBP. Kotsay if healthy would give you a .330-.340 OBP, though only marginal power (maybe 10 HR). Anderson gives you very good defense, but looking at recent years, I think Kotsay gives you good (but not as good) D as well. Anderson could spell Kotsay defensively like he did Griffey. Given that, I'd rather have Kotsay. But you of course take the chance on health, which is why its good to have BA around as a backup plan. Interesting looking at the defensive stats for Kotsay and Anderson in 2008 - they played very similar number of games, though Kotsay played 50% more innings. They both had 1.000 FPct, Kotsay had a BETTER RF (I was surprised at that), and had 3 assists to BA's 0 (small sample size there, of course). Anyway, I agree BA is better defensively, and stats aren't great for defense. But Kotsay is no slouch out there, even now. I think every year you don't give BA a chance increases the likelihood he will never amount to much. If you're going to give a chance to guys like Fields and Lillibridge, BA has earned his shot too. They threw him into a very tough spot in 2006, although he could have handled it better. Since then he has been pretty much blown off. I have no problem with him being a 4th OF if they get someone legit. If it were for Kotsay, if I were BA's agent, I would tell KW its time to move BA on.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 11:51 AM) So, instead of finding numbers from a couple seasons back... how about you tell us what your opinion is on the topic? Which is better of these two scenarios, in your opinion: --Anderson/Owens in CF --Kotsay in CF, with Anderson/Owens as plan B Sorry, I'm just point out Kotsay isn't the OBP machine you suggested. I would rather have Anderson and Owens. I like BA, and don't like Owens, but Erstad was a mistake, and Kotsay would be making the same mistake twice IMO. He isn't the GG quality CF he used to be. Doesn't run. Doesn't hit with power and will most likely wind up on the DL. Unless KW is going to get a legit CF, he might as well see what BA can do. If he had 500 AB last year he probably would have had 20 + homers and we all know what he can do defensively. Why banish him to the bench for a guy who isn't as good? Not saying BA is a star in the making, but there's no doubt in my mind if he played everyday he would have better numbers than Kotsay. BTW, Kotsay and Erstad have identical career OBP. Strange it would be exactly the same.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 11:45 AM) Erstad's OBP the year prior to signing with the Sox was .279. Kotsay was .340 in ATL, .286 with BOS in very limited at bats there. And I was making a comparison, not saying Kotsay was some huge OBP guy. I know you want to focus in on any specific thing that doesn't fit, but, look again at my main point here: Kotsay with Anderson as a backup plan > Anderson/Owens in CF for the Sox, as long as Kotsay can be had for fairly cheap. Its low risk for a possible high reward, and if he can't stay healthy or is truly done, then you are back where you were anyway. One thing that does concern me though about Kotsay, aside from health, is the dropoff in SLG after 2006. .279 also was Kotsay's OBP with Oakland in 2007. He has back problems.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 10:46 AM) Erstad had missed games due to injuries, a lot of 3 of 4 seasons prior to going to the Sox. Kotsay has had those issues 2 seasons, but his numbers were still decent last year, and he's an OBP machine that Erstad isn't. But in any case, I am not saying its ideal - I am saying I think that's likely to happen. And remember too, Dye came with that injury issue as well. KW likes those types of moves. Erstad was similar, not the same. OBP machine? He's got a .337 career OBP and hasn't been able to match that the past 4 seasons.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 10:37 AM) Kotsay actually had decent numbers for Atlanta this season FWIW; .289/.340/.418 Not saying he's a great option, but if he came cheap, I'd probably rather him than Owens if he could put up a line like that again. Excellent plate discipline also (45K's in over 400 AB's). He also was brutal with Boston and doesn't play defense like he used to.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 10:39 AM) . Also note that he came in to close out games often, started to give up hits/runs, and was pulled for someone else who would close it for him. I don't think that's true. I think if it were it would count as a blown save and he only had 2 of those in his White Sox career.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 09:54 AM) As I said in another thread, I think the chances of a Konerko to LAA trade are increasing by the day. I see the Sox probably doing two or three things this offseason that they haven't done yet, from this list: --Trade PK to LAA for Figgins and/or pitching --Trade Dye, possibly to CIN, for pitching --Sign Mark Kotsay to play CF --Acquiring a relatively cheap pitcher with some question marks to compete for the rotation There would be a revolt. Kotsay is Erstad revisited. A good centerfielder several years ago.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 20, 2008 -> 04:59 PM) That's not a very good measure for closers. When used properly, Jenks will almost always come in just for the 9th, or the closing inning. The few times he didn't are aberrant and would skew the data oddly. That measure is really only useful for non-closing relievers. For a closer, the ultimate measure is Save % (not gross total), and then behind that are your normal performance numbers - ERA, WHIP, K/9, etc. If that's the case, Shingo should never have lost his job. He was 19-20 in save opportunities in 2004 and 8-9 in 2005 when he lost the job. I don't think there's a person around who thinks Shingo shouldn't have lost his job as the closer. I also don't think anyone is arguing Jenks' effectiveness to this point. The question is how long will it last?

Ironically, Arn Tellem is one of JR's favorite agents to deal with.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 22, 2008 -> 11:58 AM) Broadway/McCulloch taken back-to-back in the first round (even when you consider where we were drafting) was unacceptable and pathetic. It's really amazing what we've been able to do this decade considering what our farm has produced (So long Duane Shaffer. You are not missed). Ellsbury was available when the Sox drafted the "safe" pick in Broadway. 2004 might have been a bigger disaster. They picked Fields, Gio, Lumsden, Whisler and Lucy in the first 2 rounds passing on Pence and Pedroia. They also selected Fields, Gio and Lumdsen before Huston Street. They have had their shot at good players, but for the longest time had a problem identifying them.

Here's BA's top 10 White Sox prospects in 2006: 1. Ryan Sweeney, of 2. Josh Fields, 3b 3. Lance Broadway, rhp 4. Kyle McCulloch, rhp 5. Charlie Haeger, rhp 6. Aaron Cunningham, of 7. Adam Russell, rhp 8. Lucas Harrell, rhp 9. Matt Long, rhp 10. Chris Carter, 1b Granted, the White Sox weren't loaded with prospects, but prospect rankings mean didley. I don't see any excitement over Broadway or McCullough both first round picks rated #3 and #4 in the Sox system in 2006.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Dec 22, 2008 -> 07:10 AM) Community college for 1 year. Marquez started in the minors at age 19. Considering Garland at Marquez's age had pitched more innings in the major leagues than Marquez had pitched as a professional, I don't think comparing their minor league ERA's would be an accurate measure of what Marquez will do. I hope he's as good as you think. I believe, at least for 2009, its a pipedream.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 10:41 PM) Let's see... Players/Round selected/Minor league ERA and # of seasons in the minors Garland 1st round (3.55 in 5 minor league seasons) Danks 1st round (4.20 in 4 seasons) Floyd 1st round (3.69 in 6 seasons) Masset 8th round (4.57 in 7 minor league seasons) Grilli 24th round (4.51 in 8 seasons) Glover 15th round (4.75 in 12 seasons) And Marquez....... 1st round (supplemental) The 41st player picked in the entire 2004 draft Minor league career ERA... 3.60 in 5 minor league seasons Garland, Danks, Floyd were taken out of HS. Marquez went to college.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 04:55 PM) OMG... I don't BELIEVE you're attempting this comparison. Marquez is a power arm. He has a 94-95mph fastball and a 90-93mph power sinker. As pitchers go... Wes Whisler is a great hitter. Period. I'm not comparing their tools, just their seasons, but Marquez is not a power pitcher. Here's BPs scouting report after his "stellar" 2007. Marquez was the Yankees' supplemental-round pick in the 2004 draft. He throws a sinking fastball and, given his declining strikout rates, seems to want to take the Chien-Ming Wang path to success. It's a grand idea but for two problems: his ground-ball rate took a step back last year, and there's only one Wang. Marquez will be among the team's starting prospects to be considered for the major league pen this spring, but will likely start the season in the Triple-A rotation.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 04:17 PM) You said Marquez's 2007 in AA was nothing special. If being the starting pitcher in the AA Allstar game is nothing special, not to mention his other numbers, then I'd like to know what a decent year in AA would look like. His 2007 was pretty similar to Wes Whisler's 2008. Whisler did his in a AAA bandbox while Marquez was in AA. They both were drafted the same year. Marquez was picked 41st, Whisler 53rd. Whisler was available to any team for 50k this offseason. Every team passed. He's not much of a prospect. There are a lot of players that have had decent years in AA and 2 seasons later weren't contributing at the major league level. He did have a decent year in 2007, but it wasn't eye-poppingly impressive. I'm glad that you and a few others are optimistic about how he will pitch at the major league level in 2009. I hope you are right. I just don't see it. Check what Ian Kennedy did as his teammate in 2007. I don't think you'd trust him with a rotation spot in 2009.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 11:49 AM) well, whatever. You still need to tone down your posts. I wish yours were laughable, but they are more annoying and grating. The ignore button is your friend.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 11:37 AM) He was suggesting that people are throwing Marquez under the bus because they are less familiar with them than if he were a sox prospect.He wasn't saying he deserved slack because Richard was a White Sox draftee. Here's his quote: And even if I hadn't realized I was off base regarding Richard, he's a totally different situation from Marquez anyway. Clayton is a White Sox draftee. And we've had little to no success in developing our OWN pitchers. So at least I would have a somewhat decent arguement in my initial reaction, even if I hadn't changed my mind.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 11:22 AM) I think what is more laughable is your false interpretations of others statements and then ridiculing the argument you made up as laughable. What did I falsely interpret? I copy and pasted his post from Oct. 2.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 10:20 AM) No argument here. No response to my last post? Agreed. How many young starting pitchers has KW acquired who have had an immediate successful impact on the White Sox major league team? Maybe you backed off of your Richard criticism but saying you deserve slack because he was a White Sox draftee and Marquez was not, making it a totally different situation is beyond laughable. I still haven't called Marquez garbage. The biggest slam I've given him is he's more like Lance Broadway than any of the other names mentioned. Of course, that may be considered worse than calling him garbage.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 09:57 AM) To be fair to Richard, we really dont have enough of a sample size on him to dismiss. I would say the same to those who solely focus on his postseason success This was actually jordan4life's post on Oct. 2. I posted it to show just how hypocritical he is slamming people who don't think Marquez will be much help in 2009 for "not giving him a chance."

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 01:28 AM) So I take it you wanted no part of guys like Contreras, Floyd, Marte and Thornton when they were first brought in? Since you love putting so much stock in raw numbers and raw numbers alone. The selective memory around here by some baffles me. And it's the same predictable people every time. Marquez could very well suck ass. Who knows. You haven't seen him. I haven't seen him. Even if we did, it still wouldn't mean s***. We all know how Kenny operates. He, Rick Hahn and their people don't obsess over raw numbers. They scout overall talent/stuff/makeup/I.Q./ect. Is it a perfect formula? Of course not. But he's had more than enough success with these kinds of acquisitions that the guy should at least be given a chance. Not the typical "Well, his minor league numbers last year sucked. So that means he must suck" drivel we go through EVERY year. As a matter of fact, I've been one Jose Contreras' biggest backers on this site. I was one of the few that didn't want him gone even in 2005. I also am a Marte fan, and mentioned Matt Thornton as a potential pick up 3 months before he became a White Sox. I admittedly wasn't a fan of Gavin Floyd and still am not sold. The numbers suggest some things. Marquez has always given up a good amount of hits. He doesn't strike very many out. To suggest he will do things he's never done before during his minor league career on the major league level is crazy. I'm sorry I bring reality into the equation. You're basing everything on a conference call. Remember, KW also said Gio Gonzalez was one of the top 2 left handed pitching prospects in baseball along with Danks. People on this board, since the White Sox dumped him say he sucks. If Minnesota traded a .219 hitter who strikes out all the time and was owed $24 million for 3 players including Marquez and said Marquez would be the 4th starter, your opinion about his ability would be no higher than mine, and maybe lower. Its not up to me to "give him a chance." The White Sox will do that. I hope he does well, I just don't see how anyone can expect itinnings? BTW, you seem to be hypocritical. Why don't you give Clayton Richard a chance? After all he has a lower ERA, WHIP and walk rate and a higher k rate than Marquez in the minor leagues. Here's a quote from you: Selective memory? Richard doesn't suck? An era over 6? A WHIP of 1.55? BAA of over .300? He's garbage. A typical White Sox farmhand. And we've got people saying he should've started game 1 of a playoff series because he pitched a couple of nice innings? Here's scenerio's response to your post: Hey, if the 'typical WhiteSox farmhand' dominated at AA and AAA and got selected for the Olympic Team and the Futures Game, we'd all be very happy. Why is it that people think when a rookie player comes up that they either have to dominate everyone right away or they suck? You seem to be the one with the selective memory. Garbage. Typical White Sox farmhand. So its not the "his minor league numbers suck, so he must suck" you live by. You're opposed to that. But, White Sox farmhand and garbage go together.

KW lucked out. OC needs to fire his agent. From Olney: All but two of the free agents who were offered arbitration turned it down in the hopes of landing multiyear deals elsewhere. But increasingly, it appears that the Jason Variteks and Orlando Cabreras are going to have a difficult time landing deals that match what they might have made in arbitration. "With everything that's going on, and the way the prices are dropping, there's no way I'd give Orlando Cabrera a two-year deal for big money -- not when I have to give up a draft pick," a club official said. "Not a chance."