Dick Allen

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 06:15 PM) Another factor in considering the trade is the sox showing improvement in their drafting [and scouting in Latin America, ala DLS]. The farm system can improve pretty quickly. KW has done well in years past trading young minor leaguers who haven't amounted to much, overall. And has gotten solid major league talent in return. If the draft system improves and gives the sox REAL talent, I'm not worried. With the state of sox farm system the last decade, it can't help but improve. They are really going to need some cheap pitchers pretty soon.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 06:58 PM) Kenny also had a vested interest in inflating Gio's value as high as he possibly could. Regardless of how true or false his statement was, I don't believe a damn thing that Kenny says publicly. Believe me, no GM is going to inflate the value of White Sox prospects based on what comes out of KW's mouth. Just like KW really doesn't care what other GMs have to say about their prospects. Gio probably wonders what he's going to have to do to make it through a winter without getting traded.

Swisher will be fun to watch play, but I do caution everyone about how he is signed cheaply. If the pitchers the White Sox give up actually turn out to be decent, remember KW called Gio one of the 2 best lefthanded prospects in baseball and had him penciled as a front of the rotation starter, if Gio actually reaches that, the cost to replace that considering the Carlos Silvas of the world get $45-50 million is going to be large. So while when actually evaluating the Pods/CLee trade you take the money savings into consideration, you also have to consider the cost down the road of replacing these guys. That is of course, if they pan out. In the end pitching is what wins, but for 2008 and maybe even 2009 KW probably gets the best of this deal IMO. I'm a little concerned with Swisher in CF. He's not Carl Everett bad out there, but he isn't going to be helping the pitchers a lot.

For some reason the lights are on at USCF right now.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 01:05 PM) It is official.....Gio/DSL/Sweeney for Nick Swisher So let me get this straight. The very same people that applauded KW for not "draining the farm system to get MCabrera, now are thrilled the White Sox get Nick Swisher for these 3? I thought Quentin was the second coming in LF?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 31, 2007 -> 04:56 PM) Richar was a much more raw player, Marte was supposed to being very ready for the bigs at a younger age. I haven't seen Marte much, but if you look at his minor league numbers they really weren't eye popping. Either he's taking a longer time to develop than what a lot of people thought, or he really was never all that good.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 31, 2007 -> 04:39 PM) It most likely will. With the current state of our team, it'd be absolutely retarded to not start Richar at 2nd. Let him play and see if we can develop a nice player at 2nd base. Richar has the talent to be successful in this league, let him prove it. Isn't it funny Marte in Cleveland is now being written off as a bust by their fans and White Sox fans are clinging to hope Richar develops into something good, when Richar is actually the older player of the 2? I do agree, unless KW improves the roster by a great amount before the season starts, you might as well see what Richar can do playing full time during the heart of the season.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 05:54 PM) Improvement is there - the potential of the newer players is pretty clearly higher than who they replaced, in my view. But you never know what they will actually do. I never said otherwise. You can't write any of it in pen anyway - its all guesswork. You would also have to take into consideration the possible "improvement" of teams they will face 19 times. Detroit, Cleveland, KC, and perhaps even Minnesota could say they have also "improved."

QUOTE(palehose23 @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 12:52 PM) Per Rotoworld Danny Richar - 2B White Sox .224/.265/.254, 0 HR, 5 RBI, 17/3 K/BB, 2 SB in 67 AB Richar hardly embarrassed himself with a .230/.289/.406 line in 187 at-bats for the White Sox, but neither did he do a lot to solidify his status as a regular. The team needs to invest in a legitimate alternative. Thats Avg/OBP/SLUG for the stats impaired- Looks Good!!!! This is Soxtalk. The only poor winter league stats that matter are Brian Anderson's. BTW, BA's average and OBP in 2006 are virtually identical to Richar's in 2007 at the major league level.

Evidently Mark Gonzalez doesn't agree with KW's analysis of the current roster. Here's his prediction from the Tribune's list of predictions from its writers in 2008 A demanding schedule that features 15 of their first 22 games against American League postseason contenders Cleveland, Detroit, Minnesota and the New York Yankees will put heat on the franchise to get off to a fast start, and avoid the slow start that crippled them in 2007. An aging roster will force Ken Williams to make one of his most controversial trades in his tenure as general manager. Otherwise, they could be looking at a 100-loss season. —Mark Gonzales, White Sox reporter

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 27, 2007 -> 02:56 PM) Even though some folks here don't see a difference between 70 wins and last place, and 85 or 90 wins and staying in the hunt until near the end... some fans do. So you can bet that having a team like the one he is trying to set up here will draw more crowds than a 5th place team would. Yes, there is of course a lingering effect of 2005. But if the team is awful in 2008, it will lose that effect a lot faster than if its good but not quite good enough (which is what I think is likely). Nothing will turn Sox fans off more than losing and going out on a limb and offering someone $75 million, getting rejected, and then saying you can't buy something for $1 when you only have $.50 when asked what you're going to do with that money. I understand and maybe even believe the White Sox planned to go out on a limb and try to spend money to make money, something it appears they have not done in the past, but its not going to fly with the casual fan.

QUOTE(JohnCangelosi @ Dec 26, 2007 -> 06:02 PM) Seeing that this off season has been a major disappointment and we still don't have a lead off hitter, should we take a one year flyer on Pods and have Owens as his backup?? I know we didn't offer him a contract and he is an unrestricted FA. And I realize 90% of this board hates Pods. I think the guy is made of paper as well.... However, he's had a whole offseason without surgeries, etc, and if he's going to have a healthy year it will be this one. Anyone we pick up at this point will have some risk attached to it. I am just saying, since we are on option 45 at this point, does it make sense to sign Pods to a 1 yr deal to lead off and play LF or are we ok with Owens in LF or CF and leading off?? Because it certainly doesn't appear we have any better options at this point. Otherwise, I think we are going to HOPE that Crede swings the bat well in Spring Training to where we can trade him for Figgins or the like. Otherwise we are looking at Owens in CF and leading off.... We do need a OBP guy leading off with speed. Jerry Owens has the speed but not the OBP and a really weak slugging %. We can either pray he gets better or just restructure for the future. If we're truly going to try to win next year, I think we need to answer this problem. And I think our best shot is trading Crede for a leadoff guy, assuming Crede can show some good stuff in ST. I've never liked Pods, but if he wants to aggravate his groin in Charlotte, I'd have no problem with that.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 26, 2007 -> 05:47 PM) DA, The funny thing is, I think we agree on a lot of specific things. I agree with you on a lot of players such as Contreras and Uribe that many posters hate. I love the Quentin deal, but it's not likely he'll have a huge impact in 08'. I worry about Danks and Floyd as well, but I don't see a whole ton of other options available. I'm not sold on OCabrera either, btw, and the timing of that trade was not the brightest. But I think in order to judge the job Kenny has done, you've got to look at the things he's done and the decisions he's made at the time they were done and at the time they were made, and judge him from that perspective. And I have challenged you a number of times to suggest alternate courses of action that could have been taken, and to be brutally honest with you, you're suggestions haven't passed the smell test. You can judge KW all you want for the place we were in on October 4, 2007, but unless you analyze HOW it is that we got there, instead of THAT WE ARE JUST THERE, I think it's overly simplistic and unfair to simply say he's an ignoramus who has done a terrible job the past few years. Sometimes players don't get the job done, and you really don't seem to want to place any of the responsibility or blame on them. I clearly disagree with you there. KW, the past year or so has been quick to mention after almost every transaction how he always has an eye on the future. Basically, KW did the bulk of his free agent signing during the season with the passing out of extensions. At the time all the extensions got done, except I think they really went overboard on Vazquez but it does appear it could save them money, the contracts, given the state of the current market, were reasonable. But, if you have an eye on the future, and have a system so bare you have to fire a long time employee, so really very little cheap help is imminent, how do you bring back the same core when it appears so obvious their window has closed? Its kind of like buying accessories for $.50 on the $ for say a HDTV. But buying too many, you don't have enough money left over for the TV. What good does it do you? Pitching wins. Can you really say the pitching staff is A) definitely improved, and if the answer is yes B)improved enough to win the 25 or so more games it will take to make the playoffs?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 26, 2007 -> 05:01 PM) #2, Then why don't you ever give the guy credit for making those moves? How does a collection of "several good moves" not improve the guy's stature with you? I know you characterize me as someone who "always agrees with KW." And for the most part, I do agree with a majority of what the guy has done. But are there moves that I would like him to make that he doesn't? Of course! Are there moves he makes that I would rather he not have made? Of course! But that doesn't stop you from characterizing me as "agreeing with everything" he does, does it? No. The point is, for the most part, I agree with his philosophy, his ideas, his moves, etc. You and GP disagree with those things. And that's fine. But where my questions come in are here: I come here because I love the team, I enjoy reading about them, I love our Owner, I love our GM, I love just about everything about the organization with the exception of it's mainstream fans (whom I have criticized several times on Soxtalk). You and GP come here and basically repeat ad nauseum that KW is a completely ignorant fool, the organization is a disastrous mess, etc. The entire point of my question to GP was to find out what it is that he is positive about when it comes to the White Sox, perhaps so we could discuss some of those things as well, instead of us both beating a dead horse from opposite ends. And I still haven't really gotten an answer yet. I have. Go back to the threads. GP and fathom are the 2 I have PMs with the most, and I know we are probably known as being the 3 most pessimistic, I respect their opinions but we don't all agree on everything. I respect other's opinions as well, but sometimes the posts to rip us are ridiculous. There are more than a couple people on this site that agree with everything KW does. If he traded Konerko for Matt Murton tonight, there would be guys backing him up on it. I prefer to do my own thinking. Just because I don't think Linebrink fixes the bullpen, just because KW signs another free agent to a 4 year $4.75 million contract and I have a hard time believing he's a savior because I figure if he was he wouldn't be available at that price, and just because I happen to like Uribe and although I think Cabrera is probably better than him, but do think his numbers will probably drop a bit next year, and thinking the difference between Garland and Floyd is too immense to offset the boost in production the White Sox may get out of the SS position, (remember Cabrera has a lifetime .321 OBP, hardly stellar), just because I think Richar has a lot to prove, just because I don't think Carlos Quentin (If you check the thread, I did like the deal) will make a huge impact in 2008, just because I look at the back end of the pitching rotation and see Danks and Floyd and start to cringe, I guess that should make me ineligible to post on a White Sox message board. The reality is this team has been awful for a season and a half. I just fail to see how a GM can have a team with a $108 million payroll, making all the correct moves, yet has a farm system ranked near the bottom of all of baseball and a major league team that was battling for the worst record in all of baseball late in the season.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 26, 2007 -> 03:20 PM) No, I'm honestly not questioning your "fandom." I believe you love this team every bit as much as the next person around here. What I am asking you is "why"? And I am not trying to be a smart ass. It's just that when nearly every post or comment is something negative about someone, it gets a little lost on me why it is you actually like the team? And with you and DA, it's reached the point where every acquisition or other decision that is made is immediately criticized or negatively evaluated, as if you have been conditioned to take such a position by the echoes of eachother's posts bouncing off the walls of Soxtalk. I just don't understand it... BS. I've said several moves have been good. While I don't necessarily agree that Linebrink is the guy who fits the White Sox bullpen and really question what he has left, I said KW had to do it. I've supported players on this site who have been ripped apart. I like Uribe better than most, and have even defended Jim Thome who gets ripped on this board. I thought the Garcia trade was decent. I initially agreed with the Garland trade, believing more pitching was on the way, but switched when Gavin Floyd and John Danks were then being counted on to man 40% of the rotation.What's wrong with stating you disagree with a move? What makes it so enjoyable to numb your mind and just agree with every move a guy makes? That's what's happened on the other side of town, and as soon as the White Sox won, that stopped, and guess what, better players are now in place for them. Why is it wrong to criticize moves, but not wrong to always agree with KW? The proof is in the pudding. The team has been lousy for a season and a half.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 02:49 PM) Wow. I've only read reports and knew the team was struggling, but I didn't see this coming. I wonder if there is a college gig or something and he asked to be let go? Of course he's under a contract and I'll bet he's getting more than two weeks severence. I think he has 2 years left on a guaranteed contract. They will have to pay him unless he coaches somewhere else I would guess.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 11:07 AM) No. The GM's job is to put together a TEAM that can get ITSELF to the playoffs. A team composed of players that PERFORM well enough to reach the playoffs. The GM does not throw a pitch, swing a bat, play the field, or throw anyone out at first. The GM assembles the best team possible with the resources available to him. Kenny, for the large part over his tenure, has done exactly that. He has put this team and these players in position to win this division by PERFORMING well enough SEVERAL times throughout this decade. Unfortunately for him and us, the players he has put on the field have not performed well enough to win the division several years where it was far more talented than any opposition. Finally, after the 04' season, Kenny was forced to let Magglio walk and the Carlos Lee trade, in hindsight, probably could have brought back more talent (oh, how it would have been nice to have gotten Gallardo). However, the trade ultimately paid immediate dividends in bringing back some pieces that helped us win in 05' (both in trade and in clearing salary). After 05' Kenny strengthened the team by adding Thome and Vazquez, and all looked great heading into the ASB. And it's difficult to argue that not having an average hitting CF was hurting us, because we did quite well despite BA's poor performance. Unfortunately, the 06' team collapsed in the second half despite adding MacDougal to the bullpen. Neal Cotts, Bobby Jenks, Brandon McCarthy, David Riske, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Contreras all had absolutely terrible second halves. I'm just not sure what Kenny could have done to counteract fall-offs by so many pitchers. Going into 07', Kenny added several bullpen arms, while trading away some of those that failed us- Riske, Cotts, and McCarthy. Fans were clamoring for a new CF'er, but the few available options were signed to dramatically over-priced contracts, including Juan Pierre and Dave Roberts, and their were no "easy" fixes. Rather than handcuff or "strangle" the payroll, as one poster likes to accuse him of doing, Kenny wisely stood pat and tried to find an internal option. And at first, it looked as though Kenny had pushed the right buttons. The bullpen was one of the bright spots in the month of April, as Aardsma dominated, Masset pitched well in long relief. MacDougal, Logan, and even Andy Sisco pitched very well. Then all began to fall apart again, as Aardsma, MacDougal, Sisco and Masset all pitched terribly in May. And we all know what happened for the rest of the season- the offense never got on track, and the bullpen ended up being quite a disaster. However, these performances by several players don't change the decision to acquire them at the time they were actually acquired. Suddenly, players whose acquisitions were celebrated are no longer desired because of the performance (or lack of) of other players. A team that was viewed as strong and peaking is now viewed as old and past their primes. And what has followed is the leap in logic that the acquisition of these players was the wrong move. That this team never had the talent to win more than the one Series title they did win and therefore, that is the GM's fault. And now that we have nothing to show for our efforts since 05', what Kenny has done is lead the organization down a path of absolute destruction, basically wrecking every facet from top to bottom. What a bunch of nonsense! Many of you fully admit that the 05' team was lucky, or flukish, etc. And I don't necessarily disagree entirely. Yet it is many of these same people who criticize Kenny for improving the team by adding Jim Thome and especially, Javy Vazquez. And now that the team he put on the field has not performed to expectations, he was wrong to have put that team on the field at all. That's not fair judgment- that's revisionist history- that's 20/20 hindsight vision. Meanwhile, the man's only traded away ONE valuable asset from his farm system in his entire tenure- Chris Young. There's been absolutely no one from our system that he's moved that has turned out to burn us other than Young. ONE player. And yet he is criticized to no end for that. I find it extremely difficult to fairly heap too much criticism on Kenny. When you look at some of the teams he has put on the field, the players really haven't gotten the job done for him to get his just due. Certainly they got it done in 05', but there should be more division titles in our trophy case. Perhaps an ALCS trophy as DA says. But I find it difficult to put that blame upon Kenny, considering some of the teams he has assembled. And finally, I find it extremely difficult to believe many of his detractors would have done a whole lot different to actually reach an alternative outcome. It's simple to sit here now and say this move or that move should not have been made. But I can't recall many of the extensions being handed out as very controversial. In sum, we are in the position we are as a ballclub because to a large degree, our players have not gotten the job done in the second half of seasons. Not Kenny Williams. Sorry. I have seen the light. Since KW was the GM when the White Sox won he should always be the GM. Its because of him if the Sox win and its on the players if they lose. I will go with that now. Its time then to remove several players, don't you think?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 07:28 AM) How completely self-contradictary can you be in the same post? If winning the World Series is all that matter, Williams is the only successful GM we have had in the last 90 years. That means the rest of that crap about playoff appearences and wins is completely meaningless. Which one is it: wins, playoff appearences, or World Championships that matter? The problem is you keep moving the bar to paint Williams in a bad light no matter what the standard is. We know you hate Kenny Williams. I don't know if he kicked your dog, slammed your Sun Times column, or sent you Mike Sirotka, but the whole Williams Sucks stampede is so over-played it is boring. We get it, give it a rest. Where was I contradictory? I pointed out its a GM's job to get his team to the playoffs. After that its a crapshoot. See the 2006 Cardinals. That's always been my stance.

QUOTE(palehose23 @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 07:59 PM) ON PAR?! WOW. Schu has Zero rings and will not get hired again as a GM. As soon as KW "fails" here there will be a team(s) looking to scoop him up to run their organization. And yes Jerry Krause is a MUCH BETTER GM than John Paxson ever will be. He traded for Scottie, drafted Horace, got rid of Doug Collins, and didn't listen to Jordan's suggestions on personnel (i.e. Walter Davis). You tell me a better GM in this city's history than him? I'm Waiting... Thats what I thought!! How come Dolan continues to watch Isaiah ruin the Knicks when Krause is available? If its "all about the rings", Walt Jocketty was the best GM in baseball in 2006, how come no one has scooped him up yet?

QUOTE(palehose23 @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 12:35 PM) STFU While I do not like what KW has done this offseason but to say that Schuler is a much better GM that KW is asinine. Bringing up winning percentages, division titles and the like means nothing- THE RING IS THE THING. When did we turn into the Yankees? You and your father have seen exactly the same amount of championships on the South Side-1 and KW was the GM. If it was a fluke or happenstance I would love to have that GM who luckily brought us this BS championship than a GM who kepted us mired in mediocrity. The Central now is much better now than the Central/West that Schuler had to get thru. Be mad at KW- Hell I am furious at him- but don't just talk out of your rear end. Who is talking out of their rear end? I haven't seen anyone call Schueler a much better GM. I think he's on par.If your a Bulls fan, from your post you must have been on 24 hour suicide watch when Jerry Krause was replaced. He's got 6 rings. Someone should hire him immediately.

QUOTE(shipps @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 09:29 AM) You can say all you want about Schueler but Iam still glad KW is here and not him. I wasn't advocating bring back Ron Schueler. I was just pointing out that his reign really wasn't any worse than KW's and no one wants him to be their GM. KW's backers will point to the WS as the difference between the 2 and that really is BS. It wasn't KW's magical powers that made the ball roll through Tony G's legs. It wasn't KW's genius that got El Duque to get through that inning in Fenway unscathed. If those things don't happen, maybe they lose in the first round. If they lost in the first round, the majority who back KW's every move now would not think much of him. Whose to say if JR had Scheurlhotz or Shapiro or Theo or whoever, the White Sox don't have multiple titles now or at least multiple ALC titles and playoff appearances? KW gets way too much credit for the White Sox success. He inherited a team with a ton of good parts. It would be scary to think what his record as a GM would be if he inherited a team like the Pittsburgh Pirates.

QUOTE(ptatc @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 10:08 PM) I would say it's the opposite on this board. Looking at the posts, at least 80% of the people here believe KW is an awful GM and should be fired. I think I am one of the few that thinks a GM with an above .500 record and a world series win under his belt deserves a chance. Very few current GMs can match this. I don't micromanage. I don't dissect each move in a vacuum. I look at results, so far his overall results have been good. Now if he has another disasterous season........ Ron Schueler's teams were 78 games over .500 in 10 years with the White Sox. If there was no strike in 1994, chances are they would have played out the string that year better than .500 which means that 78 is low. KW's teams are 54 games over .500 in 7 seasons as GM. Schueler's teams made the postseason twice, and perhaps would have made it 3 times if not for a strike. KW's teams have made it once. KW does have the only title, but really its a GMs job to get the team to be good enough over the 6 month season and hope they get the breaks in the playoffs ie you could hardly call Walt Jocketty Executive of the Year in 2006 for putting together a team that won 83 games made the playoffs and won the WS. What I'm getting at is Schueler's record as a GM as far as results and condition of the organization is just as good as KW's. Schueler quit because he wanted to be a scout. JR did proclaim Schueler was the White Sox GM as long as he wanted to be the White Sox GM. JR has a lot of influence around baseball. Schueler has tried but cannot get another GM job. SS2K5 has a quote about the "defeatist attitude" in his signature. Its a quote from KW. Saying a year is successful because the White Sox finish 8 games above .500 and come in second or third is exactly what even he is talking about. There really is no reason the White Sox should not have dominated the Central Division the past 6 or 7 years. NONE. They had as many or more resources as any team in their division. Cleveland and Detroit and if you think about it even Minnesota went through almost total rebuilds. KC is KC but 1 playoff appearance in 7 years for KW. Its really not that impressive, and if someday he decides to quit his current job, I think he'll probably have the same results as Schueler if a year or so later, he wants back in. KW is a blowhard and some still buy his act. He still talks down to everyone like he has all the answers. Last week he went to the " if we did what the public wanted" routine again. He needs to look in the mirror. He has a team that lost 90 games. Still drew one of the highest attendance figures in team history, and he only has $.50. Looks like the fans weren't the only ones wrong about where to throw money.

QUOTE(ptatc @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 10:48 AM) Such as... What would your plan be? It's easy to attack in a vacuum and say "this guy can't help us" Trade for hitting? Trade for starting pitching? Trading for defense? I think that the relief was the greatest weakness and would be the area I would go first. There's no question he had to do something. Funny thing is a lot of the same people that said you don't pay that kind of money for a middle reliever, cough Justin Speier, cough, like this move. It may not work out in the long haul, but it had to be done. I still think the bullpen needs more than just Linebrink.

QUOTE(BureauEmployee171 @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 03:00 PM) I will give MLBSB's and the BAL Orioles reports (as both are the same): Danny Richar - Tool - Current/Future Hit - 40/50 Power - 30/35 Run - 60/60 Field - 35/45 Throw - 50/55 OFP 49 I don't know how long you've been in the business, but I would love to see Joe Borchard's reports circa 2000/2001.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 05:03 AM) Quentin's ability to get on base, while not clogging the bases, could be huge for the sox. That kind of hitting eye he showed in the minors is hard to teach. We can only hope his minor league numbers project to big-time major league success. If it was a sure thing he wouldn't have been available. It was worth Chris Carter to find out IMO.